Declan Rice

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roseguy64

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I'd never thought I'd see the day where people said McTominay is above Rice, but he is on current form.

When both are at the top McTominay is better, fecking hell I hope ETH keeps improving the players and we might be better than shit for once
I'm not saying McTominay is better. Rice is better. He's more consistently good for a start.

But at their best there's not much between them.
 

NinjaZombie

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Only reason he gets rated highly is he's a young English player who performs at a decent level consistently. We could do better for the prices quoted for him.
 

Abraxas

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Let's be serious, I'd have Rice over McTominay every single day of the week. McTominay has had about 6 games of good form, Rice has a couple of seasons worth and the only reason the comparison is even there is on reactionary consideration of the last few weeks where their form has shifted.

But this ship has sailed anyway, Rice and Casimero is a completely wrong balance so there's just no way the manager pays what he'd see as an inflated English transfer fee for this type. I believe he'd want a good dribbler and technical player next.
 

Suedesi

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He’s shown his qualities for long enough, and objectively been one of the league’s best midfielders for years. His stock price has dipped a bit now though, but based on history, this would probably be a good time to buy more rather than cash out.
No he hasn't. Best midfielders in the last couple of years have been Kevin De Bryune, N'golo Kante, Bruno Fernandes, Bernardo Silva, James Maddison, Gundogan, Fabinho, Rodri Jorginho et al

He's just an overrated English player - and thankfully he's not the type of player EtH likes/requires for his system.
 

Suedesi

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He showed his qualities in a 3-5-2 West Ham that barely moved over the half way line and counter attacked in the majority of their matches.

Now Moyes is trying to play more open, they're struggling and not looking anywhere near as defensively sound.

Rice was being highly overrated by sitting in a perfect situation to show off his ability to win the ball in tight spaces. Now that's changed, he's looking more like he does for England.

A good player, but nothing special at all.
Amen - and he doesn't fit the system our manager wants to play.
 

hmchan

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He showed his qualities in a 3-5-2 West Ham that barely moved over the half way line and counter attacked in the majority of their matches.

Now Moyes is trying to play more open, they're struggling and not looking anywhere near as defensively sound.

Rice was being highly overrated by sitting in a perfect situation to show off his ability to win the ball in tight spaces. Now that's changed, he's looking more like he does for England.

A good player, but nothing special at all.
I really doubt how many West Ham games you watch. Moyes seldom plays 3-5-2 and if anything he tries this season, it is more defensive rather than open.
 

90 + 5min

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There is a reason you need to play with 3 centerbacks behind Rice and Bellingham. And it is not in positive way.

If he was avaiable for around £20m I would consider. Otherwise no.
 

hmchan

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There is a reason you need to play with 3 centerbacks behind Rice and Bellingham. And it is not in positive way.

If he was avaiable for around £20m I would consider. Otherwise no.
Or Southgate could have just dropped Rice if he's as mediocre as everyone suggests. He cuts out so many dangers in an outnumbered midfield and people still complain because "it is not in positive way".
 

90 + 5min

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Or Southgate could have just dropped Rice if he's as mediocre as everyone suggests. He cuts out so many dangers in an outnumbered midfield and people still complain because "it is not in positive way".
Outnumbered? There are 5 defenders and 2 central midfielders. It is more people in those zones than what is in Tokyo. Just watch how many times one of the center backs help those two out. It is ok, it is team game. But as I said, there is reason why you need 3 defenders behind him and Bellingham. They are not good enough to play without help.
 
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DannyCAFC

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There is a reason you need to play with 3 centerbacks behind Rice and Bellingham. And it is not in positive way.

If he was avaiable for around £20m I would consider. Otherwise no.
He's getting even cheaper. Gone from a £40m player tops, to a £30m player, now 20.

One more average game in an average England side and suddenly it'll be 'I wouldn't even take him on a free' on this forum.
 

cyberman

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He's getting even cheaper. Gone from a £40m player tops, to a £30m player, now 20.

One more average game in an average England side and suddenly it'll be 'I wouldn't even take him on a free' on this forum.
Why would we take him on a free if we don’t think he’s suited to our style of play and is overrated on top of that?
 

hmchan

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Outnumbered? There are 5 defenders and 2 central midfielders. It is more people in those zones than what is in Tokyo. Just watch how many times one of the center backs help those two out. It is ok, it is team game. But as I said, there is reason why you need 3 defenders behind him and Bellingham. They are not good enough to play without help.
Rice himself had 4 tackles and 6 duels won at halftime. He won so many 1v1 or even 1v2 in the midfield and I don't see how the 5 defenders are relevant. He had Musiala in his pocket until Flick moved him out wide. Needless to say he mostly plays in a back 4 at West Ham.
 

DannyCAFC

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Why would we take him on a free if we don’t think he’s suited to our style of play and is overrated on top of that?
Because you still have utter dross like McTominay playing regularly?
 

cyberman

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Because you still have utter dross like McTominay playing regularly?
Or he’s playing because he’s bang on form while keeping a player who is 10x the player Rice is in Casemiro on the bench?
Rice has been shit for a while now by the way. I wouldn’t be slagging McTominay in defence of “3rd CB in a 4-4-2” Declan fecking Rice
 

DannyCAFC

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Or he’s playing because he’s bang on form while keeping a player who is 10x the player Rice is in Casemiro on the bench?
Rice has been shit for a while now by the way. I wouldn’t be slagging McTominay in defence of “3rd CB in a 4-4-2” Declan fecking Rice
Most of this forum (rightly so) was on McTominay's back last season and suddenly a handful of decent games and he's a good player again. Meanwhile Rice 'has been shit for a while' after a handful of bad or average games.

More proof of how fickle most of you lot are.
 

cyberman

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Most of this forum (rightly so) was on McTominay's back last season and suddenly a handful of decent games and he's a good player again. Meanwhile Rice 'has been shit for a while' after a handful of bad or average games.

More proof of how fickle most of you lot are.
If fans were rightfully on Scott’s back then why aren’t the fans rightfully on Rices back? Rice was shocking for 3/4 of last season. His drop in performers isn’t a drop in form, it’s been there for approaching 10/11 months now.
Feck knows what Scott has to do with this by the way.
My point is why would we bloat the squad by taking a player that doesn’t suit Ten Hag or be the type of player he wants his Utd midfield to play though?
For us to be fickle we would have all wanted Rice in good form but not in bad form. The same posters claiming he isn’t good enough now are the same posters who were claiming he wasn’t good enough when he was bluffing the likes of you.
How is that fickle?
 

90 + 5min

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Rice himself had 4 tackles and 6 duels won at halftime. He won so many 1v1 or even 1v2 in the midfield and I don't see how the 5 defenders are relevant. He had Musiala in his pocket until Flick moved him out wide. Needless to say he mostly plays in a back 4 at West Ham.
Stats like tackles and duels won don't mean anything when you put them in context. Example, you can win every header if nothing happens with that. Or when someone says that someone have 89% passing rate when every pass is two meters and back to goalkeeper or defender.

That pocket seems to be full of holes because England have been open in the middle of the park.
 

hmchan

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Most of this forum (rightly so) was on McTominay's back last season and suddenly a handful of decent games and he's a good player again. Meanwhile Rice 'has been shit for a while' after a handful of bad or average games.

More proof of how fickle most of you lot are.
The anti-Rice brigade here is unbelievable. I understand Rice is overpriced, I can see why fans don't want him, but the constant underestimation on his ability (especially defensive side) is clueless. I doubt how many know how to analyze a defensive player, and how many actually watch West Ham regularly.
 

hmchan

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Stats like tackles and duels won don't mean anything when you put them in context. Example, you can win every header if nothing happens with that. Or when someone says that someone have 89% passing rate when every pass is two meters and back to goalkeeper or defender.

That pocket seems to be full of holes because England have been open in the middle of the park.
So what's the context here? Your examples are irrelevant and I don't see one accounting for Rice's stats. Those stats are simple proof for his outstanding defending, which could easily be captured through an eye test.
 

Hammondo

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So what's the context here? Your examples are irrelevant and I don't see one accounting for Rice's stats. Those stats are simple proof for his outstanding defending, which could easily be captured through an eye test.
Giving up the midfield to pack the defence.
 

90 + 5min

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So what's the context here? Your examples are irrelevant and I don't see one accounting for Rice's stats. Those stats are simple proof for his outstanding defending, which could easily be captured through an eye test.
Why is it irrelevant. I'm telling you that you can't judge by taking out some numbers. You got to look at the whole picture when you judge a midfielder. Let me give you a better example. WanBissaka, one of the best one on one defenders in country. Would you say that he is good defender and a player? Or is it more to his game when we need to judge?

And if you want to talk about stats in Premier League this year. Go and check out his stats and compare to players that people see as "average".
 

caid

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The anti-Rice brigade here is unbelievable. I understand Rice is overpriced, I can see why fans don't want him, but the constant underestimation on his ability (especially defensive side) is clueless. I doubt how many know how to analyze a defensive player, and how many actually watch West Ham regularly.
I definitely dont. I dont feel like that needs explanation.
 

Tyrion

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The anti-Rice brigade here is unbelievable. I understand Rice is overpriced, I can see why fans don't want him, but the constant underestimation on his ability (especially defensive side) is clueless. I doubt how many know how to analyze a defensive player, and how many actually watch West Ham regularly.
To be fair, how many of the people pushing for us to sign Rice watch West Ham regularly?
 

hmchan

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Why is it irrelevant. I'm telling you that you can't judge by taking out some numbers. You got to look at the whole picture when you judge a midfielder. Let me give you a better example. WanBissaka, one of the best one on one defenders in country. Would you say that he is good defender and a player? Or is it more to his game when we need to judge?

And if you want to talk about stats in Premier League this year. Go and check out his stats and compare to players that people see as "average".
Of course you can't judge a player solely by numbers, because there are plenty of parameters to decide and sometimes you don't know which are important. But now we are talking about a certain department (defending) of Rice's game, which I think he's excellent (which is obvious through eye test) but you insist it's due to the 5 defenders. There is no way he's making those stats if he wasn't actively winning so many possessions in the outnumbered midfield.

Rice ranks 1st in terms of interceptions (20) and 11th in terms of tackles (18) as a midfielder this season. McTominay has 8 interceptions and 11 tackles. Again we need to consider the contexts when we compare stats of course, but average?
 

hmchan

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Im not sure why anyone serious thinks England plays 3 CBS because of the midfield. Infact England till Bellingham's emergence has been forced to play two defensive minded pivots infront of the defence because the cbs aren't that special.
Anyone sensible human would know. Anti-Rice brigade has a different opinion though.
 

hmchan

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To be fair, how many of the people pushing for us to sign Rice watch West Ham regularly?
It's totally fine not to watch West Ham regularly, but don't pretend you do just by joining the dots. Moyes playing 3-5-2 in majority of the matches? Trying to play more open this season? These are obviously made up to suit the agenda that Rice can't attack.
 

SAFMUTD

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60M would be way too much for him, nevermind 100M.

He's the AWB of midfielders.
 

caid

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The only time i'd bother watching west ham was if they were playing someone good. In which case Moyes will park the bus as thats what hes been doing for the best part of 20 years. How good Rice is in that context just doesn't mean much to me.
Even if moyes opens up against fulham or something im not sure how useful it is to know he can keep a midfield of that level in check. He could do with a new manager, a different kind of manager at international level or a different club and i dont think he'll get any of them for a while yet.
 

Luka Mora

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If Rice ever came here for 120 million, he'd buckle under the scrutiny and pressure, and never live up to the price tag, then fans will start spewing abuse towards him and mocking him and the club for playing him when he starts making errors and found out to be not elite level just like what happened with maguire and awb who many fans lusted after before we signed them

He's not even the most likeable character on the field, evidenced by his unprofessional after west ham got kicked out of europa last season and he accused a ref of being corrupt, neither is he most more introspective as I'm sure I remember him doing an interview saying he's already world class and has nothing to prove.
 

flappyjay

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He is talented but no one will touch him unless he has a year left or he is a free agent.
 
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