Genuinely curious: in what kind of private sector job would wearing a religious symbol negatively affect the business? Racists getting offended and therefore not buying products doesn't count.
EU companies can ban employees from wearing religious symbols
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
There are no problems with the law. What you do in private companies is owners choice as long as it goes by the book. If you can't and will follow the rule of a company then there are other places you can work at. I don't know why there always need to be talk about rights. How about obligations.
I see people mention religion. Well, religion is a thing between a person and higher power. That have nothing to do with anyone else.
I see people mention religion. Well, religion is a thing between a person and higher power. That have nothing to do with anyone else.
It's rare which is why companies rarely use that right.
It seems to me that it would make a lot more sense to only have laws for specific professions then. Yeah, it's easier to just make one law that affects all professions, but it's obviously a stupid decision.
This post is idiot.
I don't follow, this decision confirms an already existing right. It affects no one new.
Because they were asked to make a ruling on it by the German courts I would presume.
Private companies are within their rights to ask employees to dress a certain way (to an extent). Some employees disagreed in one case and took their employers to court in Germany, the German courts referred it to the ECJ. And the ECJ ruled that as long as no religion is being singled out then companies are within their legal rights to enforce dress code policies pertaining religious clothing/symbols. Looking at it objectively it makes sense.
Though I would hope most companies take a common sense approach to their dress codes and be fair with people who have to wear certain items for religious purposes. For example if they have a uniform code then there should be compromises such as Muslim employees being allowed to wear head scarves that match the colour of their uniform etc.
If you allow any business to enforce the "no religious symbols allowed" law, regardless of what their reasoning might be, then it is doomed to be exploited by bigots.
Thus, it makes more sense to make several laws for specific professions instead.
I’d rather they gave the choice and “freedom” to individuals than private companies. A law banning companies from setting these divisive policies would be far more useful.
Posters seem to think there is some new law just come out. Not that each country has their own laws and the law in France dates from 1905. Badly reported by a British journalist.
Is it badly reported though? The article states it's reaffirming a previous ruling.
Misleading then - the law hasn't changed.
True that.
I meant anything within the regulations and tradition.
A sikh on a expensive suit can perfectly work at Morgan Stanley, but at the same time, he won't be hired for a job where he can't comply with the safety regulations.
They can’t do that. Like someone else said, if the company policy is to wear a uniform then employees should be expected to follow that policy. I’m all for reasonable accommodations but I suppose then it’s gets into what’s reasonable and what’s not.
Btw, genuine question; do Sikhs ride motorcycles without helmets in the UK or can they fit their turban under one? I can’t recall ever seeing a Sikh on a motorcycle. Not too Sikhs in my area.
As far as I know there is no such laws in private companies. The ruling is that private companies are free to create an internal policy that prevents workers from wearing religious or political messages, with one key caveat, you can not discriminate religions or political ideologies. It's everyone or no one.
Those individuals are free to work for an other company.
All should be OK imo.It's a gray area...
Hijab is ok , but Burqa? Full Face eyes only?
At some point it has to be regulated. You can't expect people working with full burqa, but at most times it should be given freedom if it's a hijab, it's hard to draw a line.
I can't wear trainers at work. No, it's not the same, because I'm not of the trainers religion, but if you ban all of it without targeting a single religion I'd say it's fair play for a private company.
I think the special exceptions for religion are silly, but that's probably because I'm an atheist. Case in point, Mass being allowed to be held during the pandemic, because the constitution didn't allow it to be restricted. Fecking ridiculous.
I think the special exceptions for religion are silly, but that's probably because I'm an atheist. Case in point, Mass being allowed to be held during the pandemic, because the constitution didn't allow it to be restricted. Fecking ridiculous.
Really? If an employer in the UK had a uniform policy that meant headscarf’s (for example) couldn’t be worn at work, with no good reason why, I would assume that would be indirect discrimination. Happy to be corrected on that if it’s not the case.
This is a silly argument on multiple levels. But on your first point, because non Muslims can wear whatever they chose. In fact the premise should be that people are free to wear whatever they choose.
Some wear it out of choice and are not part of any oppression. Come on man, don't make ignorant posts.
Weird argument. You could apply that to any type of employment policy, it doesn’t make the policy right.
Cut your dirty dreads you dirty dread and other EU rights.
And that is bullshit, imo.
If you were of the trainers religion, who would be your God?
Special exceptions don’t make for an even playing field, IMO.
Religion has no place in the workplace, unless you work in a church.
The question isn't whether the policy is right or not from your perspective but whether someone is free to choose his own biased policies within his company.
That's your opinion but your opinion shouldn't supersede the ones of someone else when it comes to the private sphere.
Yep, a bullshit self justifying argument.
Personally I wouldn't restrict anything if I owned a business, but I don't see why it's OK to ban shorts, but not OK to ban something religious.
I’ve no problem with headscarves so not sure why anyone else would, unless it was a safety issue, like a lathe operator.
I doubt the problem is headscarves anyway. Maybe the problem is burkas? Or some other garb/symbol. So in order to ban those they have to ban everything so as not to be seen as discriminatory. I don’t know…
I would like to wear shorts at work too but I doubt I could legislate my way into them. I’d be looking for another job in no time.
It's not a justification, it's a fact. If you somewho stumble on one of the few employers that have that type of policies then don't work for them. You are not stuck and they are very rare.
I hate religion, but it's quite apparent that it runs deeper than a simple fashion choice
It's very important to people. Discriminating against religion is a small step below discriminating against race, gender and sexual orientation.You're right, it did. I wear a small crucifix and a miraculous medal, they have both been blessed and I never take them off. Many Catholics wear the same kind of medal. If I had to take them off to secure a job, I'd probably refuse.
But that simply isn’t the case. Most policies are based on legislation, not the biased opinion of the person writing the policies. I couldn’t suddenly write a policy that says my employees aren’t entitled to any annual leave, or are paid below the minimum wage.
You don't understand. You don't practice a religion part-time, it's part of who you are. It informs everything you do. Your comments about Muslims are more than a little ignorant.
Lucky you’re retired!
Seriously, you have a choice where to work, and where not to work. And you’re the best person to make that choice. If an employer has certain rules then I’m not sure it’s up to me to tell them they’re wrong. I mean if those rules are not discriminating against certain types, as against all types, if that makes sense.
Sometimes it's both. This ruling allows companies to cleanse their operations of undesirable blacks. Although said blacks have the freedom of getting fired, so alls a good.I hate religion, but it's quite apparent that it runs deeper than a simple fashion choice
I wouldn’t have thought so. Let’s say someone was working in Tesco, a headscarf or cross necklace doesn’t effect the uniform. They could easily prove a burka would make the member of staff unidentifiable to customers, which is why they don’t allow it.
Because while religion is not important to you or me at all, it is an absolutely vital part of others' lives and telling someone they can't work in a pharmacy because they're wearing a headscarf or a yarmulke is a no different to many of these people to telling someone they can't work there because they're black or homosexual.
If there is a genuine reason a turban or other such religious garments can't be worn as they'd affect the wearing of the uniform or safety, then fair enough. If not, I personally think its nonsense but clearly the ECJ and a good few others disagree.
I get that, but should a company be able ban me from wearing something, simply because I'm not religious and put no great stock into what I wear? It's a bit like the pastafarian who showed up to court wearing a frying pan on his head claiming it was a religious symbol.I hate religion, but it's quite apparent that it runs deeper than a simple fashion choice
Again, I wouldn't ban anything personally, but I just don't like making exceptions simply because it's religion. I realize it's hard to convey this point without seeming like a bigot, but that's not my intention.