If I'm not mistaken we have the highest net spend amongst that group of 4 since Ole took over. Nobody is disregarding that Ole started from a postion of being behind those three teams, especially liverpool and city. That's why he largely got a pass for his half season in charge and first full season. He is still for a group of people almost guaranteed to get a pass for this season as well. That's why i agree with the majority that this season is do or die. Either win a big trophy or get very close and win a minor trophy. That is the minimum and will be the minimum expectation for as long as he is manager.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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The same things were posted on the caf when Tuchel took over Chelsea (couldn't win the farmers league etc)
And yes I'd take Poch any day over Ole
I don't know about transfers since Ole took over but we're 3rd behind City and Liverpool, probably 4th now after Lukaku joined Chelsea, in terms of wages.
I'm not saying we're shit and he should get a free pass but when there are better squads around us that have strengthened it's impossible to say we must win something to continue with the manager when the manager is visibly improving us with his squad building vision. It's just unfortunate that the other top 3 teams are also strengthening at the same time so we're not going to make a huge stride, more like one step or so forward.
There should be more expectation this season, for sure, but you need to view the league holistically and not through the United bubble. The PL contains 3, maybe 4 of the best teams in Europe right now. I suspect another all English final this year unless PSG have a major say in that.
I really hope we do something special this year but we might need one more window to get a proper CF and sort the midfield.
I was against Conte a while ago but now we have secured a top class CB and Sancho, I wouldn’t mind him. Our squad is in good shape and Conte won’t be allowed to destroy it. He will also not be allowed to spend big money on average players as really, there is hardly any more room left for such signings in our squad.
Apart from maybe Martial (the Glazers might not block his sale again if another manager wants to get rid) he won’t be allowed to sell our other attacking players.
The only players he could buy would in be DM/CM and honestly that can hardly get worse. Worst case he buys someone who is as average as McFred/Matic but chances are he will buy someone better.
So if Ole does not meet expectations this season I can actually see us getting Conte. He would only survive 2 years but might win us a big trophy in this period.
But the squad won’t be in bad shape when he leaves, nothing comparable to what Jose left us with.
Apart from maybe Martial (the Glazers might not block his sale again if another manager wants to get rid) he won’t be allowed to sell our other attacking players.
The only players he could buy would in be DM/CM and honestly that can hardly get worse. Worst case he buys someone who is as average as McFred/Matic but chances are he will buy someone better.
So if Ole does not meet expectations this season I can actually see us getting Conte. He would only survive 2 years but might win us a big trophy in this period.
But the squad won’t be in bad shape when he leaves, nothing comparable to what Jose left us with.
Teams are almost always going to strengthen especially those that want to compete for major honors. Those 3 other teams will buy players next year as well even if we get a cf and a cm. At some point you have to draw the line and say you've had enough time and money to win something major. For me that time is this season.
I agree but as long as we have Martial leading the line or 34 year Cavani, and Matic or McFred starting in DM we're unlikely to win anything
He prefers 352. AWB won't make it which means we are left with Dalot . We will have to sign a RWB. Now he prefers 2 forwards of which one of them should be physically good and can hold the ball. We only have a 34 year old Cavani, means we have to sign one. Now for one spot we have Sancho, Rashford and Mason. Bruno isn't probably going to make it (see Eriksen). Basically we will sacrifice our best players to accommodate Conte. Not worth it.
Oh, I appologise, I didn't realise we're working with 'maybes'. Winning the CL is a bonus for a season, it should never, ever be a do or die sackable offense. We are not PSG. Sir Alex, only managed 2 CL wins for fecks sake and that's when we dominated the English League financially for over a decade. Winning the league is a more realistic option and even then we're competiting against Clubs that throw 100 million at just one player. Again, it's an unrealistic expectation and you're simply setting the Manager up to fail, likewise i'm sure Liverpool and Chelsea want to challenge for the league but they aren't going to expect it as they all know what lies infront of them. Your 3rd "maybe" option is more realistic and is the expectation of most United fans, that should be our goal this season as it's a good stepping stone for next year.
But don't think spending money = guartanees success, that's been proven by many Managers, many Clubs across many Leagues to be a redundant argument. It's not even on Ole to negiotate sales or purchases. It's upto the board to find buyers for our lads and get decent fees. Using a Net Spend argument as a way of adding pressure onto Ole is misplaced. That should be an argument you use to put pressure on the board. Either way, Ole has had plenty of time to build his squad, he's got the vast majority of signings right, VdB is the only obvious fail. But we have to win something this season and if we don't then I think the Club has to realistically look at alternatives, maybe not act on it straight away, but certainly look at options.
What are you talking about we literally have all the tools required just a different set of individuals playing. If coming close to win the league or winning silverware means AWB gets dropped for Dalot and Luke Shaw now plays in a back 3. I literally do not care.
As for the attacking options we are jam packed from a combination of any two up top. I don’t see where we have a problems. We don’t need to sign players if he comes in.
This. I'm doubtful he can deliver on these expectations but I was never Ole out because I saw the gradual improvement and the quality of the signings.
Conte plays 5-3-2 exclusively. Where does Rashford, Sancho and Pogba fit in there? Does omitting them in favour of Telles/Dalot/Lindelof/James excite you?
Who would be our wingbacks? Dalot and....? Now lets assume that Dalot is actually a good player capable of playing in that system (I think all the evidence points to that not being the case). Who would be on the left, as you've put Shaw in the back 3. No chance we bring him in, it would just be another utter failure of the board if we bring in another Manager that has a completely different way of playing that requires a whole new set of players to get us going. It would be another terrible decision. In summary, feck no.
Simple question- Tell me who do you think will make his preferred 352 line up.
@RedSky
Gk
Varane Maguire Shaw
Dalot Telles
Bruno Matic Pogba
Cavani Sancho
I mean lads it’s not rocket science. You also then have Options of numerous CB options. Luke Shaw is well capable of playing wing back and we have about 6 attackers as it is to play in a two including Bruno.
Stop giving me excuses.
I made this point in the premier league prediction thread and some posters thought I was being pessimistic when I said we will finish fourth. Among the top four, there is nothing between the squads (precisely the starting XIs) I am not an Ole outer (all the guys I would want to replace him with are at our rivals). However, I made the point that if any of Klopp, Pep or Tuchel was our coach and in charge of our squad, I an most people would have felt we had a decent shot at the title. This is the point many of the people that have been labelled haters are making. There seems to be this argument that until we give Ole the perfect squad, we shouldn't have aspirations for the title. No manager in this league has a perfect squad. Lets cut to the chase, among the top four, we have the weakest manager. There is no point arguing against that point.
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Well go and support PSG then.
I could sort of understand people being angry at a club legend as manager who was say tenth. If you can't even support him when we come 3rd and 2nd in an incredibly tough league and are trying to push on then what kind of fan are you?
What will you be like when the next man gets no higher than 2nd place? Let's just sack everyone who doesn't come 1st. Is that what we now are?
All this talk of ole peaking next season sounds like people are setting themselves up for another season of mediocrity. I'm still on the fence when it comes to ole but i really struggle to see why he has been afforded so much time. Everyone can see things have improved under him but he's been here approaching 3 seasons now and spent a shed load of money of course things should of improved. It's time to start delivering. I honestly feel he must wake up everyday thinking he's won the lottery by being appointed united manager, and to still be here 2 and a half years later with people still making excuses for his shortcomings because it's ok.....".he'll peak next season" or he "needs time to rebuild" .
No backup options for wingbacks, Telles and Dalot are not good enough to start for us. Dalot in particular is not a top 6 starter let alone a player going for trophies.
That midfield would get rolled over too, starting Matic...? No. No, no, no.
Apology accepted.
Liverpool would have sacked Klopp last season if he didn't have a league and CL win in his back pocket. They would say he's been given enough time and money and they want someone who can get them those big trophies. There is only so much time he could dine on the 90 plus point runner up season. Same for Chelsea, they have sacked managers who have won things for those they perceive to be better. We are comparing someone with no credit(major trophies) in the bank to those that have won and will naturally will be given a longer leash. If Ole wins the league or the CL this year he will be pretty much guaranteed to at least see out his current contract and rightly so.
Spending money does not guarantee success, nothing does however spending money is the best indicator of potential success. Go look at the top spenders in football over the past 30 years and look at the list of trophy winners. You will find they largely mirror each other.
Anyways talking about Ole is one of the most tedious things someone can do on this forum. The arguments have been rehashed to death and I suspect nothing will change until the season ends.
I literally just said Luke Shaw can play there and he’s player there for England. Dalot, who knows how good he is he don’t play. Plus I’d have faith in the manager as he managed to win a f’ing title with Alonso and Viktor Moses. So I wouldn’t care that we don’t have Cafu playing full back.
Rolled over? Wouldn’t know. I would hope he now managed to retain possession and that don’t matter.
You think a line up without Greenwood and Rashford that includes Telles, Dalot and Matic is more likely to be successful than our current approach?
Is Conte the second coming? What am I missing?
Reading through the thread now and this is an excellent post.
When discussing how strong our rivals are, people only talk in hindsight. 10 months ago, most people here wouldn't touch virtually all of Chelsea's squad with a 40 ft barge pole if they were given to us for free. Now all of a sudden, they have this "incredible squad". The changing of the goalposts is endless.
How about I just created a line up and anyone who wanted to play 352 Ole included could pick what the hell they liked from our team. Which is my whole point but people are getting their knickers raffled as usual because how dare we have options to what we already do?
I really don’t know where this keeps coming from. I would say now with Varane and Sancho we have a similar first team to City and Chelsea (even though there is still a gap in terms of striker, but especially midfield options), but last summer when Chelsea spent 200+ millions on 5-6 signings and we were hardly doing any business people were really loosing it and already predicting how Lampard will be under pressure to win the league.
“Not touching their squad” is subjective and a different issue. We prefer Shaw, they Chilwell, etc. Us not wanting their players does not mean they are not good.
And I am sure everyone here would take Kante immediately for example.
Some of our best players are at their best on the wing.
We'd have terrible management if we got a 5-3-2 manager after the previous one bought 4 wingers and promoted one from the academy.
We finished comfortably second, ie a result that doesn't warrant such a drastic change.
I'd have loved for us to have gotten Tuchel, but he's way more flexible with different systems than Conte is.
Chelsea spent that amount of money after losing their best player in decades and recovering from a transfer ban. Chelsea's spending last summer needs context. I know it's subjective but I would still take our squad over Chelsea's. But that's besides the point. Some on here are propagating the notion that it is wrong to expect a genuine challenge for the title until you have a perfect squad. That isn't a reasonable position to have.
There is no team without holes. Man City don't have a striker, Liverpool's has even more holes, yet the fans of these teams expect a genuine title challenge. We should do the same. Top coaches transform sides to being world class by buying players...yes, but a huge part of that is also getting enough of your current group to produce top performances consistently. That's what Klopp and Pep did and that's what Tuchel seems to be doing. That responsibility is what it seems a lot of people are trying to absolve Ole from. The solution can't always be about buying top players, that's not sustainable.
Seriously? You really think that midfield will work ? Basically shoe horning our best player as a CM ? This is a coach who benched Eriksen because he couldn't get what he wanted from him as a CM ( Eriksen was also tried as a CM). Not even talking about Matic in there.
Dalot ? Do you really think he will suddenly start trusting a player who is yet to show some form ?
Cavani and Sancho is good but who is the backup for Cavani ?
What happens to Mason and Rashford ? Would they be fine with a backup role to Sancho ?
Again I’m giving you options to counter your arguement we don’t have the players. As u said maybe Bruno just doesn’t play? If the balance is right the balance is right. But to counter that Bruno can easily play as an attacking two. He does it now. So what is your problem? There you go Bruno starts doing the role he does now whilst giving us the option of potentially 20 goals. What is the problem. There?
Rashford, Greenwood (he's yet to show he's better up top than on the flanks), Pogba (haven't gotten the best out of him centrally), possibly Sancho.Some of our? Who? Rashford?
4 wingers?Who?
James, Sancho, Pellistri, Amad.
Manchester United have not won the league for coming up to 10 years. 10 years easily becomes 20 years which easily becomes 30 years if you’re not careful. Then all of a sudden, winning the league is like the holy grail, as it was for Liverpool before Klopp. The question is, how long are you prepared to wait? Are you a major European player or not?
This is my guess as to why people are agitated. For the record, I think United have a great shot at the title this year, but I can totally understand people being concerned about Ole, it’s natural.
I do expect a title challenge this season and most of the posters do the same as far as I have seen.
However I just don’t agree that Chelsea’s squad was not good enough after last transfer window. Most people agreed that City had the best squad, then Liverpool and then Chelsea and us.
No, you are just fielding some players just for the sake of it. Bruno isn't played as a CM now and so no one knows how he is going to play there.
You are basically suggesting to drop Bruno, Rashford, Mason and sign a RWB, a midfielder, and a forward (if Pogba doesn't stay add one more mid). Thats another 120m for a different manager.
How about look for a different manager who can get the best out of current squad. Conte isn't the only one out there.
City have a better squad than us. Chelsea had a worse squad than us when Lampard was their manager. Chelsea squad became better than us only when Tuchel joined them. Does anyone really think Lampard would have won the CL with Chelsea.
No, Lampard was clearly out of his depth. Ole has developed and improved and continues to do so. Whether he can deliver silverware remains to be seen but he deserves the season to prove one way or another. He also deserves respect from the fanbase.
I haven't said Chelsea have a bad squad. I am saying we shouldn't be envious because we have a good one as well. Stronger than Chelsea in parts and weaker in other parts but they are at a similar level.
Quite a number of posters on this forum have gotten defensive about people demanding a title challenge this season, that's clear looking at the thread.
Funny enough, I don't expect a title challenge this season. Still think we will finish comfortably fourth.
Interesting comparison
I don’t know, maybe some people are confusing a title challenge with actually winning it.
I do expect a title challenge - which means being close fighting for it until the last days.
But we could still end up losing it to City. Tuchel could equally end up losing it to City.
But yes I expect a proper title challenge which won’t happen by drawing every 2nd or 3rd game. So we better put a winning run together very soon.
Charrager is always spot on in these debates. He's a far superior pundit.
Gary's only comeback was "they tried with a proven manager and it didn't work" - as though you paint LVG Mourinho Tuchel Pep with the same brush.
In what ways has Ole developed? Genuinely curious.
He's really not, especially when it comes to United or Liverpool.
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