How we fail in our build-up and why

[andersj]

The lack of progress in our build-up and transition play has been the most frustrating part of OGS-era in my opinion. During the transfer window our attention is on new players in but it feels like we fail to realize the potential of our squad as long as we fail to build a proper structure to dominate the oppostion and sustain attacks. I really like OGS and I think he has done a great job with rebuilding us after Mourinho, but the fact that we still struggle this much after almost three years is a huge issue for him. We have seen someone like Potter implementing a better buildup in a shorter time with far inferior players.

Eric Laurie, a coach at OGS former club, Molde, made a good thread about it. He is insightful and worth following if these types of topics interest you. He is quite "commercial", meaning he keeps it simple and "entertaining", but informative (typical american in other words). Check out his thread below:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

He also gives a mention to Maram AlBaharnas thread about our passing. I'm not familiar with her, but I think it was a good read.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Born2Lose]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Great thread, I think this has been obvious to a lot of United fans for a while and is one of the reasons I've backed Henderson even if I don't think he's good enough to be the regular No1.

 

[flappyjay]

Nice thread. The lady shows from great angles what we struggle with. But also its nothing new, we have been complaining of a lack of structure to our play since Lvg left( as poor as his structure was).

 

[romufc]

This highlights our problems which we have been having for a while under Ole.

The CB's hold the ball for too long encouraging the press, there is no options to pass out the back.

Awb loses the ball alot, CM's not offering the pass, which is where I think Donny can improve us, everytime I watch him, he wants the ball, none of our midfielders at the moment want the ball.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

DDG being rubbish on the ball compared to other top keepers has been an obvious flaw for ages.

 

[Champ]

Meh.
The simple fact is we are still too ponderous is building it up, taking one or two more touches than needed.

I don't see anything wrong with our structure or shape, there's always a spare man to pass too but our midfield is functional rather than creative and so are often not dropping deep enough to receive the ball.
This leads to the CBs holding on to the ball for too long, which slows the play down and leads to predictable plays.

That's the reason we are looking for a new midfielder.

 

[Orton]

The biggest problem is we have 4 of our back 6 that are not comfortable passing under pressure. That’s why we suffer.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The biggest problem is we have 4 of our back 6 that are not comfortable passing under pressure. That’s why we suffer.

No. That’s not true. Maguire, Lindelof and Shaw are all very good on the ball. AWB is decent too. In terms of ability on the ball, our back four is better than most. Our keeper is a big problem and Fred’s recurrent brain farts/Matic’s lack of mobility/McT’s poor positioning are a problem.

The rest of them are fine.

 

[andersj]

The biggest problem is we have 4 of our back 6 that are not comfortable passing under pressure. That’s why we suffer.

I dont agree with that at all.

Due to a lack of system and structure, they may look like that at times, but most of them are more than good enough on the ball.

 

[Solius]

We also take the wrong options at times. I find myself shouting at the TV when there's an obvious opening and we don't take it. Of course it's easier for me to see from that view but I feel like they should notice it too.

 

[Orton]

No. That’s not true. Maguire, Lindelof and Shaw are all very good on the ball. AWB is decent too. In terms of ability on the ball, our back four is better than most. Our keeper is a big problem and Fred’s recurrent brain farts/Matic’s lack of mobility/McT’s poor positioning are a problem.

The rest of them are fine.

The back 4 aren’t bad, they aren’t great either. There’s just far too many moments where they take too long to get moving. (This is probably down to our poor midfield too)

Mcfred however are shocking on the ball. Can’t pass, can’t turn, put the defence under pressure several times a game. There’s a reason why they work better in games where we are on the back foot and don’t have much of the ball.

 

[elmo]

They really should show wtf the first team is doing during training because they're an absolute clown fest at times in the game.

 

[andersj]

There’s a reason why they work better in games where we are on the back foot and don’t have much of the ball.

Yeah, because it is easier to counter in those games. Meaning we dont have to build from the back in the same manner.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Surprise surprise the biggest issue is Matic screwing the build up.

We really did make a big foolish move playing him against a pressing side.

Our midfield end up dropping so deep the momentum/pressure ends up towards our goal, rather than the oppositions. They need to be braver and move higher up the pitch, the defence and goalkeeper need to stop taking so long to move it forwards. This hesitation allows the opposition to setup and shepherd us into areas they want.

I hope our coaching staff takes this seriously, but I fear it's not something they're interested in.

 

[dal]

I believe Donny will start to get games in the middle soon if he’s up to speed with regards to physique.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Bit unfair comparing Ole with someone like Potter, who is tactically very good

 

[Andersons Dietician]

This highlights our problems which we have been having for a while under Ole.

The CB's hold the ball for too long encouraging the press, there is no options to pass out the back.

Awb loses the ball alot, CM's not offering the pass, which is where I think Donny can improve us, everytime I watch him, he wants the ball, none of our midfielders at the moment want the ball.

I feel like those two go hand in hand, They hold the ball longer as there is no great option. When you’re playing you’re looking for a picture of what’s going to happen next. If I’m looking forward and all I’m seeing is Fred surrounded by 4-5 Southampton players and not a single United shirt near him I’m probably not going to give him the ball. By the time it gets to him they’d have people on him and no chance to look forward and no easy passing option to change the angle.

Ideally Matic would be there and so would Bruno so he and the CB’s would have better options but for whatever reason Ole/coaching staff don’t see it the same way or the players just aren’t following instructions.

That thread was great as it gives examples of things that people have been saying for ages now but she could have gone a step further even to show how poor the front end is as well.

I do agree with your opinion on Donny as from what I’ve seen he’s one of the very few who seems to understand the idea of build up play giving people easy options for passes instead of just expecting people to beat two players then play a miracle pass.

Anyway I assume and hope over the season Ole and the team will continue to evolve and we’ll fix issues like this as no doubt that was a bad day at the office but they just exploited weaknesses that have always been there.

 

[romufc]

I feel like those two go hand in hand, They hold the ball longer as there is no great option. When you’re playing you’re looking for a picture of what’s going to happen next. If I’m looking forward and all I’m seeing is Fred surrounded by 4-5 Southampton players and not a single United shirt near him I’m probably not going to give him the ball. By the time it gets to him they’d have people on him and no chance to look forward and no easy passing option to change the angle.

Ideally Matic would be there and so would Bruno so he and the CB’s would have better options but for whatever reason Ole/coaching staff don’t see it the same way or the players just aren’t following instructions.

That thread was great as it gives examples of things that people have been saying for ages now but she could have gone a step further even to show how poor the front end is as well.

I do agree with your opinion on Donny as from what I’ve seen he’s one of the very few who seems to understand the idea of build up play giving people easy options for passes instead of just expecting people to beat two players then play a miracle pass.

Anyway I assume and hope over the season Ole and the team will continue to evolve and we’ll fix issues like this as no doubt that was a bad day at the office but they just exploited weaknesses that have always been there.

Agreed it does go hand in hand but on many occasions in the game, I saw Lindelof hold the ball and drift Left and kept coming got pressed and passed to Maguire who had no option. In that situation, if he played it 5 seconds earlier to Maguire, he would have more time to look up, if you get me?

I agree our midfield need to give options, if there is 4/5 players around Fred, surely there has to be an outlet ball somewhere?

That's exactly what we need, a simple pass, if you watch Donny, he will receive the ball from the Cb, pass it back to them and move, which means its harder to press because then you are chasing a player rather than jockey and press.

IMO there are two options of beating a press, go long or play past the press with one twos.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

It’s a bit of a worry that rather basic things like build up play are not being picked up and dealt with even after Cole has been here a good amount of time. We’re saying things like “hopefully Ole and the coaching team will work on this” about a supposedly elite level manager of one of the world’s biggest teams.

 

[11101]

Good analysis but it's not new. We've been saying this for a long time now. It's impossible to move the ball forward quickly and effectively when we've only got one midfielder linking the defence and attack. It's better when Fred and McTominay play together but still not perfect.

That this is still an issue 3 years in is the main question mark over Ole for me. He hasn't recognised it and attempted to fix it when every armchair fan and analyst knew it long ago.

 

[andersj]

Good analysis but it's not new.

You are right, it is not new. But I dont think it is important whether it is new or not. The issue, however, is.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s a bit of a worry that rather basic things like build up play are not being picked up and dealt with even after Cole has been here a good amount of time. We’re saying things like “hopefully Ole and the coaching team will work on this” about a supposedly elite level manager of one of the world’s biggest teams.

That’s true but let’s not forget that someone could write a similarly critical piece about every team in almost every game they drop points. City’s struggles to break down a low block and vulnerability to counterattack after the Spurs game, for example. And they’ve been done over by counter-attacking football plenty of times before. Often by us! That doesn’t make Pep a bad coach. Perfection is unattainable and every team has flaws which get highlighted when they don’t play well.

There’s no harm discussing this sort of thing and there are obviously a lot of things we need to get better at but it doesn’t mean we’re a terrible team, with coaches who haven’t a clue what they’re doing.

 

[Leftback99]

Like others have said its nothing new just from watching us. These just back up that the biggest weaknesses in this squad are centre midfield and goalkeeper.

Centre midfield should have been the priority this summer over anything else.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Agreed it does go hand in hand but on many occasions in the game, I saw Lindelof hold the ball and drift Left and kept coming got pressed and passed to Maguire who had no option. In that situation, if he played it 5 seconds earlier to Maguire, he would have more time to look up, if you get me?

I agree our midfield need to give options, if there is 4/5 players around Fred, surely there has to be an outlet ball somewhere?

That's exactly what we need, a simple pass, if you watch Donny, he will receive the ball from the Cb, pass it back to them and move, which means its harder to press because then you are chasing a player rather than jockey and press.

IMO there are two options of beating a press, go long or play past the press with one twos.

Yeah but if I could be bothered I could go find clips of Maguire doing exactly the same thing. Probably add Shaw ,Bissaka and Matic To that list. Pogba does the same thing. Holding on too long looking for a decent pass or option until it’s too late and doesn’t appear so got to pass it to the safest option you can find which might not be that safe putting someone else under preasure.

Again a symptom of a lack of structure and discipline in the coaching for me. However you would think players at this level would see the issues themselves and correct it on the pitch.

Issue With Donny right now would be how do you get him in the team. Even if we went 433 with Pogba on the wing the likelyhood is that Donny and Pogba would probably be occupying the same space as Pogba doesn’t really stay as a LW and is more LM. Personally I’m not sure Donny as one of the two pivots is the way to go myself and think he’d probably suffer the same issue as Fred does with very few options unless he is teamed with Fred.

 

[Oranges038]

Been obvious to everyone who watches Utd for ages. I've watched Leeds quite a few times, I know they are suspect defensively, but they are really good and moving the ball out quickly from the back in 1 and 2 touches.

Utd are slow on the ball with way too many touches, any more than 3 is too many, which I think is being caused a lot by players not creating space and angles to receive the ball. Any more than 3 touches and any chance you have of breaking through a press is pretty much gone.
De Gea is shite on the ball, he doesn't move around his box looking for passes, which affects the ability of the players around him to drop out and receive passes.
Maguire/Lindelöf are too slow with the ball regardless of how much time/space and options are there.
Players like Fred, Pogba, McT, just can't be trusted to receive the ball under any kind of pressure, which limits the passing options of the players behind them who have the ball.

 

[romufc]

Yeah but if I could be bothered I could go find clips of Maguire doing exactly the same thing. Probably add Shaw ,Bissaka and Matic To that list. Pogba does the same thing. Holding on too long looking for a decent pass or option until it’s too late and doesn’t appear so got to pass it to the safest option you can find which might not be that safe putting someone else under preasure.

Again a symptom of a lack of structure and discipline in the coaching for me. However you would think players at this level would see the issues themselves and correct it on the pitch.

Issue With Donny right now would be how do you get him in the team. Even if we went 433 with Pogba on the wing the likelyhood is that Donny and Pogba would probably be occupying the same space as Pogba doesn’t really stay as a LW and is more LM. Personally I’m not sure Donny as one of the two pivots is the way to go myself and think he’d probably suffer the same issue as Fred does with very few options unless he is teamed with Fred.

Agree, all our our players in the back 6 do this, its not limited to Lindelof only.

This has been our biggest issue, when you have sub par midfielders, the whole structure of the team is ruined. We are told McFred are good off the ball, yet we were under pressure in the last 20 mins, yet we stuggle to win the ball back.

Well if the midfielders who are meant to win it back dont, why not try play Donny with someone to see how we do ? Surely it cant be worse than our current build up?

 

[DWelbz19]

The biggest problem is we have 4 of our back 6 that are not comfortable passing under pressure. That’s why we suffer.

I’d say 4 of the back 7. The ‘keeper, the two midfielders, and then Wan Bissaka - sort of.

 

[acnumber9]

So the reason we’re crap on the ball isn’t because of having midfielders who can’t pass the ball? It’s actually De Gea’s fault? What a load of shite.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Like others have said its nothing new just from watching us. These just back up that the biggest weaknesses in this squad are centre midfield and goalkeeper.

Centre midfield should have been the priority this summer over anything else.

It sounds like you’ve missed the issue in that it’s not just player replacement but getting the team to do the right things in midfield and defence. You put DeJong in the same situations as Fred was in and he’s going to do nothing. The issue is the structure of our play and the need for people like Matic and Bruno to get in midfield and provide simple options and movement to create the angles so we can retain possesion, move the team forward and create opportunities further up the field.

We probably could do with better midfield options than Fred, McT and Matic but until this simple issue of structure is fixed very little with change.

 

[sullydnl]

No. That’s not true. Maguire, Lindelof and Shaw are all very good on the ball. AWB is decent too. In terms of ability on the ball, our back four is better than most. Our keeper is a big problem and Fred’s recurrent brain farts/Matic’s lack of mobility/McT’s poor positioning are a problem.

The rest of them are fine.

In terms of building out from the back I think most of the people who do these tactical breakdowns would have AWB as as much of a problem as GK and midfield given how consistently he is the one targeted by the opposition press or the player they want to direct the ball too when we're attacking. Which is presumably (and reportedly) why we were interested in someone like Trippier, who is less vulnerable to being targeted in that way.

 

[sullydnl]

So the reason we’re crap on the ball isn’t because of having midfielders who can’t pass the ball? It’s actually De Gea’s fault? What a load of shite.

No.

The the main problem is our midfield, the right side of our team and the shape we take up, as the twitter thread(s) in the OP highlight.

There is just one mention in that thread of De Gea being a factor as well given he isn't great on the ball, but someone decided to pick out that one tweet and make a point about that instead.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In terms of building out from the back I think most of the people who do these tactical breakdowns would have AWB as as much of a problem as GK and midfield given how consistently he is the one targeted by the opposition press or the player they want to direct the ball too when we're attacking. Which is presumably (and reportedly) why we were interested in someone like Trippier, who is less vulnerable to being targeted in that way.

I think the opposition “targetting” AWB is more about letting him have the ball because he won’t hurt them going forwards. Which is reinforced by our lack of any quality right wingers. I’m sure someone can prove me wrong with stats but I don’t get the impression he is someone who repeatedly loses possession.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I think one of the main problems is how slowly we move the ball, are passing is so slow. Its not even just a problem of this current team, its been an issue since Fergies final years.

 

[DWelbz19]

So the reason we’re crap on the ball isn’t because of having midfielders who can’t pass the ball? It’s actually De Gea’s fault? What a load of shite.

I think the point is it starts from the back, and doesn’t get any better once it does reach the central midfield.

 

[andersj]

I’m sure someone can prove me wrong with stats but I don’t get the impression he is someone who repeatedly loses possession.

He is not. I would be very surprised if someone found numbers showing he lose much possession.

It is rather that he «dont know» what to do when he is on the ball (you can find stats showing he is very little progressive). Maybe our structure plays a part in that?

 

[Kag]

So the reason we’re crap on the ball isn’t because of having midfielders who can’t pass the ball? It’s actually De Gea’s fault? What a load of shite.

They’re all fairly shite, in truth. Midfield is by far the biggest issue, granted.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Agree, all our our players in the back 6 do this, its not limited to Lindelof only.

This has been our biggest issue, when you have sub par midfielders, the whole structure of the team is ruined. We are told McFred are good off the ball, yet we were under pressure in the last 20 mins, yet we stuggle to win the ball back.

Well if the midfielders who are meant to win it back dont, why not try play Donny with someone to see how we do ? Surely it cant be worse than our current build up?

I don’t agree with that, I don’t think they are by any means the best in the world but put anyone in there in this structure and they’ll struggle because the issue is not just those pivot options. It’s Bruno, it’s Pogba, it’s Rashord and it’s Martial. They should also be dropping in to give options which just doesn’t happen enough.

 

[pocco]

Like I and many of us have said, our issues are largely of our own making. Often Fred is like an island in midfield when our defence have the ball. We saw it against Southampton and throughout last season.

Watch Chelsea or City in comparison if you don't understand where it goes wrong for us. Their defenders have numerous options and progress up the pitch as a team. We try to sucker punch teams with cheap tactics by loading up the opposition half for a quick counter/to catch them out of position.

I actually think we use Fred as bait to try and encourage the press, with our defence then bypassing midfield and going direct or wide.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Even if you got world class midfielders in there, the shape itself is still a problem.

Our structure doesn't help our midfielders/back 4. It gives them problems.

 

[Mickson]

Surprise surprise the biggest issue is Matic screwing the build up.

We really did make a big foolish move playing him against a pressing side.

Our midfield end up dropping so deep the momentum/pressure ends up towards our goal, rather than the oppositions. They need to be braver and move higher up the pitch, the defence and goalkeeper need to stop taking so long to move it forwards. This hesitation allows the opposition to setup and shepherd us into areas they want.

I hope our coaching staff takes this seriously, but I fear it's not something they're interested in.

I agree that Matic is not ideal against a pressing side, but out of curiosity, who would you have played in midfield when McTominay only could play 30 minutes (according to Ole)?