I can get that - in which case I wish people would stop hiring him to talk about modern football, for the same reason that you wouldn't ask an olympic wrestler to be a pundit on wwe - he/she would have no relevant frame of reference. If he is so totally unable to understand or empathise with modern players, why would you ask him to comment on them? It's like baiting an old chauvinist bear.
Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I would agree with all you've stated. All I'd now add is; the moment posters here feel that Pogba is underperforming and start with the " he can feck off to PSG, stinking up the place, strolling around" etc, and we all know who the Pogba critics are, how are we going to respond? I for one have given up, I just can't be arsed. You're not going to change them
Grealish will be racking them up then.
His job is to relate/engage with certain sections of viewers moreso than the footballers themselves. Both those who agree with his views, and those who get riled up by them.
And unfortunately judging by the level of engagement he's getting, he's probably doing his job well from Sky's point of view.
But those are two quite different things and many wouldn't call the latter a sport despite the athleticism needed.
Whether he's an explayer from a different era doesn't preclude him from having an opinion. He's also played the game at a level you and I couldn't possibly comprehend and may have more empathy than you know. There are certain modern players he doesn't warm to and others he does....it's just his opinion.
If people find him so grating...do what I do. Watch the game and enjoy the win or despair in defeat. Then feck off and do something useful
Nice one
I probably wouldn't mind so much if he was on talksport cos that's where you're meant to go if all you've got is a provocative opinion. But he's on the official coverage of most of our games!! His provocative stupidity is waved in front of me every week!But those are two quite different things and many wouldn't call the latter a sport despite the athleticism needed.
Whether he's an explayer from a different era doesn't preclude him from having an opinion. He's also played the game at a level you and I couldn't possibly comprehend and may have more empathy than you know. There are certain modern players he doesn't warm to and others he does....it's just his opinion.
If people find him so grating...do what I do. Watch the game and enjoy the win or despair in defeat. Then feck off and do something useful
TBH I'm isolating right now so I don't really have much else to do with my time
It’s also a vehicle for old men who yell at clouds and don’t even entertain modernising beyond a specific point or ideology. The thing here is identifying the black players Souness has or does reserve praise for; the frequency of said praise and then layer-tracing it over the praise given to white players of the same standing. We can then at least pick out, and discuss, markers and draw a more informed conclusion than with just Pogba alone.
Souness can’t hold Henry in any higher standing; to some, Henry was/is: cocky, arrogant, self-indulgent and host of other things anyone with a racial bone(r) to pick could take offence to, mask their true intentions and then dig the player out for. I don’t really want to use grafters as examples here, rather, high profile, flamboyant, black, flare players who’ve played in the PL as they are what would be perceived as being in need of ‘taking down a peg or two’ by your textbook, generic racist or one with thinly veiled undertones alluding to what they’re really about. The problem here is ‘flamboyance’ simply isn’t something we see much of in the PL - skilful, black players are just as prominent as white ones, but flamboyant players, how many come to mind when you think specifically about that? It reminds me of those ‘we don’t do that round here’ sketches - old, hard men from bygone eras who would have been cheered for nailing a ‘Fancy Dan’ are hard-wired to find this archetype egregious - if there is a conflation between race and the aforementioned, I think it’s very easy to see how, or where, those lines blur.
Let me expand upon the above Graeme Souness nailed Dwight Yorke at Blackburn, for some intents and purposes, Yorke fits the profile of a highly regarded black flare player; like Pogba, Yorke was an individual: unlike Pogba, Yorke was a playboy with a number of accounts of being a shocking trainer once he ‘made it’ post treble. Did Souness nail him for being black or was it because what Yorke stood for made this archetypal hardman, leader of men, blood and guts midfielder’s blood boil? I’d wager the latter because Souness is so textbook and predictable with his principles. @Gio listed some Souness skirmishes, not least with the white Craig Bellamy; there are specific traits and perceived personalities Souness will gun for every time, in my opinion. Throw him the carrot and he’s all in - for me Pogba enters the fray here for being a midfielder and someone who Souness could conceptualise going after, in-game. It’s the same to me as the bingo of calling which player(s) Mourinho will make life hell for when joining a new club - it won’t be racial lines over assumed character and personality ‘failings’.
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Just another bitter old man who failed miserably at management and is publicly struggling with his irrelevance.
I’m disappointed that Sky have kept his employment. It’s obviously for his controversy and cheap headlines rather than his limited football knowledge.
I don’t care that he hates United. But he’s so ridiculously transparent about it and the level of it is very sad. He even said Scotland’s weak link was McTominay during the Euros when he’s obviously their best player by a mile. It’s actually silly and his hate for United completely clouds all of his opinions.
No, I know. It's a protracted battle. I even saw similar things when I coached football. My only hope is that more people are aware of these things now than they were when I was a young kid, so we're getting there, however painfully slowly.
As for Souness, you might hope he'd offer to quit rather than go through all that "namby-pamby sensitivity" shite. That would be the ideal solution in this instance.
I wouldn't put fellow Cafe posters under the same microscope, though, as our posts here don't go out into the larger society like Souness's or Neville's, etc. It's up to each individual and their conscience, in the end (unless their racism is blatant and obvious). But public figures do need to be held more accountable.
Do you remember when Alan Shearer purposely punted a fellow pro’s head and didn’t get a red for it and was then protected by the media before the ‘98 WC? Being the golden boy, white, captain of England carries with it magical powers of media protection. Kane is now imbued with said power and any foreigner being compared and contrasted directly against him will be character assassinated and fed to the lions. I found it interesting to watch both Neville and a Scot (who’s seemingly spent too much time in England) rally around the honour of Harry Kane - they had to overcompensate to protect and deflect in equal measure. I’ve not read any print media in relation to this flare up, but wouldn’t doubt the mental gymnastics and partisan denigration of Pogba.
I’m writing a fair bit about Souness and I hope it doesn’t come off like I’m defending him - I just genuinely believe this is a case of him despising Pogba and being able to map out the reasons as to why without him having to be influenced or impressed upon to do so.
The fact we’re dedicating pages to the subject, I’d say Sky’s work is done as there’ll be the same discussions going on across social media and puns/meeting places up and down the land, or even across the world anywhere people are tuning in to watch those games where Souness says his piece.
He really isn’t.
Not that I agree with his point, as we couldn’t score goals and were bullied in the air for a couple we conceded. I thought the choice of McTominay as the no6 in the Czech game was a mistake as he lacked the passing ability of Gilmour or McGregor to initiate moves, and as a result we struggled to play through the centre of the park. But that’s about how he was deployed rather than how he can play. The weaknesses were elsewhere.
By the way this stupid iPad likes to change my words and for some reason has flair autocorrect to flare without me picking it up. Typing on this thing is pissing me off to no end, let alone going back to amend posts.
Good post and though I understand where you're coming from, as they say in Brazil: "The hole goes way farther down".
For starters, while I, again, would be loathe to accuse Souness directly as a racist without getting to know the man or at least having a candid conversation with him, the accusation wouldn't surprise me at all. He is a 70 year old Scotsman, and my own life experience means that I wouldn't be shocked to learn that such a man has racial biases.
Indeed, having lived in many, many countries, and encountered racism directly repeatedly and consistently, my mind is trained to pick out patterns and dog whistles that ring alarm bells. You see these patterns in everyone, but in my own experience (which I may add is extensive and varied) old white men absolutely trounce everyone else in manifesting them.
Ask yourself honestly, without accusing anyone specifically, what would a venn diagrama of "old men who yell at clouds and don't entertain modernising" and plain old racists look like?
The other thing I'd point out is more foundational. What does "flamboyance" mean in this context to merit being taken down a peg? Is it on the pitch flamboyance, or off it? If it's on the pitch, I'd argue there are several white British players currently in the premier league as flamboyant as Pogba - Grealish, Madison, Foden, etc... These players immediately come to mind when I think of flamboyance, and these players get much less stick than a player like Pogba.
If it's off the pitch flamboyance, I'd argue that maybe there is something biased about your definition of flamboyance. You (and Souness) may tend to associate what Pogba does with flamboyance (dancing, painting your hair, listening to rap), but remember, there are cultural differences at play. That is the "othering" that I'm speaking of.
For me, it's the most natural thing in the world. I've grown up around colors, spices, rhythm and music. It's just who we are and we do not consider it flamboyance, we consider it life. And thats not even considering the fact that Pogba is a family man who doesn't even drink! If we drop an alien on earth right now who will she think is more "flamboyant" - the man who dies his hair and dances, or the man who gets drunk and is a playboy?
For me, this is symptomatic of the othering I mentioned above. We saw it with foreign players like early Cristiano Ronaldo, and it takes it's most extreme form when we're talking about foreign black players.
Finally, I'd question the need to analyze racial biases to death using an exhaustive list of technical mechanisms. It honestly feels to me like it is an effort to find data point after data point and counter example after counter example to question a phenomenon which is widely accepted and consistently proven to be pervasive and endemic. It's not like there isn't enough evidence of bias (see the danish study - which is as conslusive a study as anyone has ever produced for or against), even if we're talking exclusively about pundits and analysts.
Ofcourse, we can't just accuse everyone willy-nilly, but I've been around the block enough to know that where there's smoke there's fire. I'm glad that your experience hasn't left you with the same precautions - it's not fun!
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Dusty baller.Tweet
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I'll reply to this properly in the morning; splicing on phones and ipads is an exercise in itself.
Well there you go then, exactly. A few historical grumbles from a famously mouthy agent who has now potentially been told to shut up anyway is completely incomparable to what Kane has done/is doing.
Really good post. Basically everything I've been trying to say and more, and better phrased.
Also, I didn't expect to come across a Brazil reference here. Amazing movie!
It's a slippery slope to start accusing people of racism in order to shut down opinions you don't like. In the case of Souness, I don't see any clear evidence that would make it applicable.
That's not to say racism doesn't exist in this country. Of course it does. But unless it's obvious, you shouldn't be tarring individuals with that brush without presenting a convincing case. Otherwise, you're risking one step forward two steps back for those genuinely wanting to do something about the problem.
For example, if I experience what might be 10 microaggressions in a day, what's likely is that only 3 of those were due to racism and 7 were due to the other person simply being a cnut. So calling out all 10 people as racists would be wrong. But it would be less wrong to make a point that racism exists in wider society as a whole. In other words, a judgement of latent racism (by its very nature) can only plausibly made in the aggregate.
All of which is to say is that you need to have a high bar for accusing a particular individual when it's not clear. And as with any conspiracy theory, you should start by applying Occam's Razor to the person you think is in the wrong.
Where Souness is concerned, the first thing you have to consider is why he might think the way he does. Like Keane, he was once the best midfielder in the world. His style was one where he played hard, tackled hard, ran hard and came off the pitch bleeding. That's the archetype he sees for the best midfielder in the world... because it happens to fit his own ego. Quite obviously, that archetype is not one that Pogba matches. So it makes sense that Souness would want to push back against the idea that Pogba could take his mantle without being able to do any of things he used to do.
It's the idea of the midfield battler that makes Souness wet. Here's a video where he talks about United needing to go to war to win matches:
Here's a video where Souness talks about the defensive solidity he thinks would constitute a good midfield for Arsenal:
Here's a video where he talks about how modern players are too soft and would never have survived in his day:
On the flipside, Souness isn't shy about praising a different black French player who happens to much closer to a modern day version of him. Here's a video of Kante getting praised for winning player of the year:
And it's not like Souness won't be critical of white players who fail to match his ideal. Here's a link where Souness criticises Bruno Fernandes for being petulent and hand-wavy: link
There's probably a healthy does on anti-United sentiment involved as well. But there's nothing to suggest it's about race. It seems to be primarily about mentality. And how closely that mentality matches his own from his glory days.
That's not to say racism doesn't exist in this country. Of course it does. But unless it's obvious, you shouldn't be tarring individuals with that brush without presenting a convincing case. Otherwise, you're risking one step forward two steps back for those genuinely wanting to do something about the problem.
For example, if I experience what might be 10 microaggressions in a day, what's likely is that only 3 of those were due to racism and 7 were due to the other person simply being a cnut. So calling out all 10 people as racists would be wrong. But it would be less wrong to make a point that racism exists in wider society as a whole. In other words, a judgement of latent racism (by its very nature) can only plausibly made in the aggregate.
All of which is to say is that you need to have a high bar for accusing a particular individual when it's not clear. And as with any conspiracy theory, you should start by applying Occam's Razor to the person you think is in the wrong.
Where Souness is concerned, the first thing you have to consider is why he might think the way he does. Like Keane, he was once the best midfielder in the world. His style was one where he played hard, tackled hard, ran hard and came off the pitch bleeding. That's the archetype he sees for the best midfielder in the world... because it happens to fit his own ego. Quite obviously, that archetype is not one that Pogba matches. So it makes sense that Souness would want to push back against the idea that Pogba could take his mantle without being able to do any of things he used to do.
It's the idea of the midfield battler that makes Souness wet. Here's a video where he talks about United needing to go to war to win matches:
Here's a video where Souness talks about the defensive solidity he thinks would constitute a good midfield for Arsenal:
Here's a video where he talks about how modern players are too soft and would never have survived in his day:
On the flipside, Souness isn't shy about praising a different black French player who happens to much closer to a modern day version of him. Here's a video of Kante getting praised for winning player of the year:
And it's not like Souness won't be critical of white players who fail to match his ideal. Here's a link where Souness criticises Bruno Fernandes for being petulent and hand-wavy: link
There's probably a healthy does on anti-United sentiment involved as well. But there's nothing to suggest it's about race. It seems to be primarily about mentality. And how closely that mentality matches his own from his glory days.
He's being misused by your sour-faced ballbag-looking manager, nothing else. He is the best player of the bunch.
If you think Happy Gilmour or McGregor are better then fine. But you'd be wrong.
The big problem with this is it's a blanket statement that tarnishes a whole generation with one, sweeping brush. SAF is older than Souness, is Scottish and white, yet he was a pioneer and a progressive who treated all players equally and almost purely along the lines of talent, mentality and commitment to the cause. Souness himself, ironically enough, was a progressive, as @Gio posted and some of the things he did were huge deals at the time that he had to take flack for, which he was characteristically defiant in doing so.
Does this make him any less likely to be guilty of racial profiling or regressive views based on race? Absolutely not, but we have to go by the body of work and what has or hasn't said in the past. There is ample footage of Souness praising black players; I can't say for certain, but I would be confident in wagering there is next to no footage of him praising an archetype he is hard-wired to despise - that which is the antithesis of what Souness represents as both a man and an ex, top-rated midfielder.
Once again, it's easy to see how one could conclude otherwise and fall on the other side of the divide and view this through a racial lens, but the problem is it's so specific and isolated that it is personal and a defined kind of prejudice and disdain. We don't have an abundance of flair players in the world, let alone in England to extrapolate from in relation to Souness, but we do have an abundance of black players in the league, and I don't recall hearing about Souness and any other player he comments on with the same unreserved, unapologetic ire he reserves for Pogba.
It’s both on and off the pitch, having a larger than life 'out there' persona that has you stand out from your peers and be quite maverick with how you live (or at least appear to). I said earlier, I can only think of Neymar who is somewhat like Pogba in the game. Both massively influential on social media with a huge presence and following, both dye their hair repeatedly and seem to actively want to stand out from their peers; both are showmen who want to entertain the crowd and be playful on the pitch wherever they can be - I don't ascribe much of that to the players you have mentioned. Grealish dribbles and holds on to the ball, but that's not flamboyance to me. Maddison is a run of the mill player for his position, nothing stands out about him in the grand scheme of players on his position.
Granted, this is subjective and my definition mightn't fit with yours, but that's what I mean when using the word. Players like Ronaldinho, a young Cristiano, Neymar and so on - they need a high degree of productivity to keep the wolves at bay or all the generic insults, numerous of which have nothing to do with performance on the pitch itself, are/were flung at them. Ronaldinho is obviously the exception here, as unlike the others, he was universally loved.
The 'other' I speak of is standing out, purposely from the masses - as silly as it might sound, I bet Souness would be the sort who'd go after a player who wore boots that weren't black back when colours were being introduced into the game. Anything of that nature, I would expect to be a red rag to a proverbial bull when it comes to someone like Souness.
Are we talking British media here or Souness specifically? I don't think they're one and the same.
At the same time, we can't make general statements and cases have to be analysed on their merits or lack thereof. It's a strong accusation to make and before someone is labelled as such, the importance of a thorough investigation can't be understated
What do you perceive to be the smoke here though? It might appear as though I'm defending Souness in this thread, but I genuinely put forth what I said as the reason why he is uncategorical in his actions towards Pogba
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Very key point.
You ARE allowed to criticise players who just happen to be black, for football related things.
Take Sterling for example. The narrative has gone so far now, that any criticism of him seems to be "oh that's racism".
When in reality, for us United fans, he's played for our biggest rivals, he has a fairly surly demeanour on the pitch, is quite often dreadful at finishing (still - despite people saying he got much better), and most importantly, the way he holds that arm out to balance is annoying.
I wouldn’t accuse Souness of being racist with his attitude towards Pogba but it does seem like his door bell rang one day and when he opened the door Pogba was taking a shit on his doormat.
Souness is a bitter old twat and his punditry and opinion is just a bit outdated to be honest, they should put him out to pasture and send him over to BeIN sports with Keys and Grey.
Souness is a bitter old twat and his punditry and opinion is just a bit outdated to be honest, they should put him out to pasture and send him over to BeIN sports with Keys and Grey.
He can’t help himself.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ness-cristiano-ronaldo-passenger-24858189.amp
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ness-cristiano-ronaldo-passenger-24858189.amp
I hope Ronaldo reads this.
Hates us with a passion doesn’t he. He tries being neutral but his hatred always spills out the fecking gobshite.
It's funny that it's only Liverpool fans and pundits who are trying to paint Ronaldo as a bad deal for United. Weird that...
No matter what we do he will always find a way to criticise Even if we won the league. ‘They’ve signed Ronaldo but where was pogba when all this was going on’ if pogba gets 4 assist vs Watford ‘what do you expect with Ronaldo upfront’ the guys an absolute clown, he reckons Ronaldo will struggle against the big teams and he especially mentioned VVD, lukaku will bully VVD all day long and I’m sure Ronaldo would too.
Even if we won the league. ‘They’ve signed Ronaldo but where was pogba when all this was going on’ if pogba gets 4 assist vs Watford ‘what do you expect with Ronaldo upfront’ the guys an absolute clown, he reckons Ronaldo will struggle against the big teams and he especially mentioned VVD, lukaku will bully VVD all day long and I’m sure Ronaldo would too.Are we?
I’ve seen many and spoken to many Liverpool fans that say quite the opposite
Many of us believe with the lift Ronaldo brings to your Club, it genuinely puts you in contention for the Title, I think you were in the conversation before his signing but now it’s without doubt for many of us that you guys will be there or there abouts
get that midfielder and you guys will go from frightening too Hollywood (on paper)
your down fall is your manager
From what I've seen on RAWK, Twitter and the likes or Souness/Carragher, it's largely a spin of "United and Solskjaer are under huge pressure now!" and "A washed up 36 year old" etc.
It's funny you say that because your manager didn't win the league last season and was only 1 player short from the previous season when he did. Perhaps an elite manager would have retained the league? We'll see how Solskjaer does this season with a much better squad (that he's built), we should be in the mix for most things but there's no expectation that we should win.
RAWK is a joke and Twitter is even worse for genuine opinions
I wouldn’t be looking at those platforms for an opinion on what most Liverpool fans think in the real world
No your right our manager didn’t win the league last season your right, but he did win the League the Season before, and the champions league the season before that
but your right, maybe an elite manager will come in and get us back on top
there shouldn’t be an expectation to win, but an expectation to fiercely challenge to win, especially with that squad you’ve got, pressure is always on for Ole but even more so now with this beefy squad, time to deliver something
Can't really argue with that, if we do nothing this season, then we may need to move on from Ole.RAWK is a joke and Twitter is even worse for genuine opinions
I wouldn’t be looking at those platforms for an opinion on what most Liverpool fans think in the real world
No your right our manager didn’t win the league last season your right, but he did win the League the Season before, and the champions league the season before that
but your right, maybe an elite manager will come in and get us back on top
there shouldn’t be an expectation to win, but an expectation to fiercely challenge to win, especially with that squad you’ve got, pressure is always on for Ole but even more so now with this beefy squad, time to deliver something
But a real push for the title, with a good playing stye, maybe just losing out close to the end of the season, will be enough for me to want him kept.
"I read that Rio Ferdinand was on the phone to Ronaldo at 1.30 in the morning. But you have to ask yourself, what was Paul Pogba doing at 1.30 in the morning? £1bn player and he's not on the phone ringing Ronaldo himself? That's shocking in my book"
Can't wait for his tears when Ronaldo outmuscles Van Dikj to score off a corner.
And your manager didn’t win jack shit in his first two full seasons so I don’t understand why there’s this expectation from rival fans that we need an elite manager to win the league this year. Liverpool were in a far better state when Klopp took over also, Rodgers wasn’t far off winning the league so the squad he was handed can’t have been terrible, certainly compared to the one Solskjaer was given.RAWK is a joke and Twitter is even worse for genuine opinions
I wouldn’t be looking at those platforms for an opinion on what most Liverpool fans think in the real world
No your right our manager didn’t win the league last season your right, but he did win the League the Season before, and the champions league the season before that
but your right, maybe an elite manager will come in and get us back on top
there shouldn’t be an expectation to win, but an expectation to fiercely challenge to win, especially with that squad you’ve got, pressure is always on for Ole but even more so now with this beefy squad, time to deliver something
Anyway, you should probably worry about your own club and almost failing to qualify for the CL last year before you start worrying about United winning the title.
We will challenge but there are a lot of factors that go into actually winning a major title. We’ll see how the squad gels and if the team is lifted from the arrival of Ronaldo. Ronaldo didn’t come here to not win anything so let’s hope we hit the ground running.
There’s too much in this post that just screams 10 year old poster
so I’m just going to say “I’m out”
and have a good day