DP Draft - R1: Harms vs Gio

Who will win the match?


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GodShaveTheQueen

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--------------------------------HARMS-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------GIO

HARMS TACTICS


So... let's do a zona mista then. It's an obvious choice when you have Gaetano Scirea on your team — put him between 2 stoppers, put a lateral on one side and hard-working wing player on another, make up your midfield three with a defensive midfielder, deep-lying playmaker and a trequartista, put a striker up front and play another goalscoring forward next to him starting out from the wing.

Possible questions that I can see being raised in the thread — please read this before commenting on it:

Jimmy Greaves on the wing? But wasn't he a striker?
Yeah, if you were to try to describe Greaves in one word it would probably be a striker — or goalscoring, to be exact. With 568 goals in 813 official games (numbers from RSSSF), he is the most prolific English footballer of the TV era. But it would be wrong to assume that he was only a poacher — in fact, his former teammate Terry Venables noted that he reminded him much more of Leo Messi than he did Cristiano. After watching many Spurs & England games from the 60s for my videos on Best, Charlton (coming soon) & Moore (coming soon) I was amazed at how good his dribbling and vision were — and how he roamed all around the front line, often starting out wide (and even taking many corners and wide free kicks ahead of Charlton no less). In the 1966 World Cup he didn't start even once as a real number 9 — Hunt played centrally with Greaves starting out either on the left or on the right side of him. Against France it even looked like Charlton played as a some sort of a false 9 with Greaves cutting in from the left. More on Greaves more, obviously.

Alberto Tarantini on the right? But wasn't he..?
Tarantini blew the world away with his performance in the 1978 World Cup as an adventurous left back, aged only 22. It was only beginning off his career though — he famously waited out his contract with Boca, played a season at Birmingham and then got back to Argentina. At River Plate he formed a brilliant partnership with a fellow World Cup winner Daniel Passarella — not as a left back now, but as a stopper next to Passarella. Funnily enough (a bit like Ramos in reverse), a former left-back preferred to play on the right side of a centre back partnership, which suited him nicely as he was right-footed. So yeah — I'll ask him to perform a conservatively defensive role next to another all-time great libero without contributing a lot to the attack.


Goals, goals, goals...

Career stats of my front four are otherwordly, I can't even think of another word.
  • Gerd Müller is probably the most prolific and efficient finisher of all-time with an incredible resume of decisive goals in biggest games. Over the course of his career and only counting official games he had scored 735 goals in 793 games :eek:
  • Jimmy Greaves isn't that far behind actually, and his record of 366 goals in 528 top-flight matches was only beaten recently by two footballers — a certain Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi. His career stats are even scarier — 568 goals in 813 games!
  • And while Zico is first and foremost known for his magic dribbling, flair and skill, he was also one of the most ruthless goalscorers of all-time, maintaining a Messi-esque balance between creating and finishing. He had scored 545 goals in 797 official games.
  • Allan Simonsen, who is demoted to a secondary role in this set-up due to his versatility and work ethic, was also a decent goalscorer, although his 222 career goals (in 555 appearances, I swear, I didn't edit the numbers) doesn't look quite as impressive as goalscoring records of his teammates.

And a special mention goes to Jordi Alba, who had formed an incredible partnership with Lionel Messi, even sometimes becoming Barcelona's second most important player in offensive stages, all from left back position. NowI don't have Leo Messi here, but Zico is one of the closest players to that late central version of Messi that I've seen — and his passing ability and vision would allow him to equally efficiently spot Alba's brilliant offensive runs — and to finish a prolonged one-two off with an accurate shot if needed.



GIO TACTICS


We set up in a positive 4-3-3. First of all, getting the best out of Romario commands enterprising football. Hence the all South American attack, supported by Zidane and Neeskens, and swashbuckling South American wing-backs, all of whom should be on the same wavelength. Alongside Romario is his Brazilian compatriot Rivaldo who excels as both match-winner and provider. Both forged incredible partnerships with R9, and should complement each other here nicely. Indeed, for Brazil Romario averaged a goal every 59 minutes when Rivaldo was on the park. Completing the trio is Teo Cubillas, whose punchy give-and-go style should be relished by Rivaldo and Romario. Cubillas has fallen off the radar in our drafts in recent years so it feels like an overdue opportunity to unleash him in a fluid and attacking Joga Bonito set-up.

In midfield we blend Zidane's smooth artistry with Neeskens' busier more forceful style. Together they should threaten, both in servicing the front 3, and in joining them to provide goals from midfield. Defensively, Neeskens will go through a power of work and make a meaty contribution alongside Penarol legend Tito Goncalves, who replaces Souness here. Partly because Zico was the one opponent that got the better of Souness, but also because Goncalves made a hugely successful club career out of shutting out brilliant Brazilians. His focus and leadership is much welcomed.

Baresi leads the defence where he offers the GOAT level anticipation and positioning required to keep tabs on Muller - as his 1994 World Cup Final showing against peak Romario demonstrated. Campbell is a very natural partner and upgrade on Costacurta, whose physicality and man-marking prowess should complement Baresi's forensic reading of the game.

Out wide it looks like Harms has taken a more significant hit through the loss of Amoros' wing-play. And while we too will miss Brehme, Sorin similarly stretches play, where his dynamism and gusto is what you need on the flanks. With Sorin and the smoother, more technical Arce on the right, we should be able to double up on the flanks with Rivaldo and Cubillas to overload team Harms where injuries have made his otherwise excellent team more vulnerable.
 

harms

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@harms , what role is Davids playing here?
The classic Davids one without any special assignments. Runs around, wins the ball, moves in forward. I need a pure ball-winner and there aren’t many better — and I also need to ensure additional cover for Alba who has a Cabrini-esque role on the left.
 

Physiocrat

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First thoughts - seriously impressive sides.

Second thought, Simonsen doesn't look the best option at RW. From what I have seen of him, he seemed to be a free roaming attacker rather than a width provider

I have no issues with Greaves. He was an inside left so this positions suits him very well.
 

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First thoughts - seriously impressive sides.

Second thought, Simonsen doesn't look the best option at RW. From what I have seen of him, he seemed to be a free roaming attacker rather than a width provider

I have no issues with Greaves. He was an inside left so this positions suits him very well.
He's played exactly there quite often for both Barca and Denmark iirc.
 

Gio

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While what Romario and Rivaldo do is pretty straightforward, I wanted to expand a little on the role of Cubillas.
Joga said:
Cubillas too was a direct attacking midfielder/second striker type who preferred to play those nippy one-twos and was more of a direct player than a playmaker or someone who could play long raking balls.
There are a few good examples in here, around the 2-3 minute mark, of those short-sharp one-twos that Romario thrived on throughout his career. Two pocket rockets with low centres of gravity exploding off each other.


Although he's a heavy-duty goalscorer - 350 goals over the course of his career, including 10 in World Cups - I think his main impact here is in that transition to attack, in rapidly shifting the ball forward, isolating Alba 1v1 and getting in behind the left-back to either go direct or feed Romario and Rivaldo.
 

harms

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First thoughts - seriously impressive sides.

Second thought, Simonsen doesn't look the best option at RW. From what I have seen of him, he seemed to be a free roaming attacker rather than a width provider

I have no issues with Greaves. He was an inside left so this positions suits him very well.
He started out as a right wing player before gradually moving closer and closer to goal, ending up as a free-roaming striker

Here's a game where Simonsen plays in a similar role to this one, scoring 2 goals in a UEFA Cup final

Here's peak Simonsen 2 years later against Dynamo Kiev — he still starts from the right and even covers for right back from time to time, but you can see that he is the main man now and he usually cuts inside relatively early


I'm not going to pretend that this team is set up around Simonsen or that it makes the most out of him, but it does suit my three star attackers and Simonsen is one of the few historic greats that can be easily used as a quick fix due to his unique mentality, work-rate and versatility. Even when he was at the top of the world, beating Platini & Keegan for Ballon d'Or, he still was very much a water-carrier on the pitch, a bit like Boniek. And this is a role that is very much familiar to him.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Went with Gio reluctantly as voting against Zico-Muller feels like an absolute crime.

Not too many quirks but I can't buy Davids in the setup unless he plays like a pure screener for the defense in the Bedin role without any other responsibilities. That is how ai can see Bozsik fit well in the Suarez role.

I am also having a tough time picturing Simonsen in the zona mistake gig but I am not that knowledgeable on him, so might be wrong.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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For Gio, I don't see any issues team build wise which is why it won my vote. The midfield is a thing of beauty. Easy to get lost in the Zico-Muller bit but Zizou-Neeskens with Tito sweeping is just brilliant.
 

harms

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Not too many quirks but I can't buy Davids in the setup unless he plays like a pure screener for the defense in the Bedin role without any other responsibilities. That is how ai can see Bozsik fit well in the Suarez role.
I’m really not sure what responsibilities do you see here that don’t fit into your expectations? He’s a purely defensive presence. Or do you want him to play as a holder and not run around like he usually does? I’m not sure if he’s suited for that role. I don’t expect anything from him offensively except from simply passes forward or sideways to Bozsik & Alba. I’ve got enough players in the build-up.

Zakarias & old-fashioned wing-halves like Edwards would be the benchmark.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Or do you want him to play as a holder and not run around like he usually does?
Yes, I would prefer a holder there.

I’m not sure if he’s suited for that role.
I agree, which is why I don't like him that much in the setup.

On a different note, I think the setup is a quality diamond in the making. Just need to beat Gio and grab Neeskens as the prisoner of war.

-------Greaves-----Muller---------
-------------------Zico------------------
---------Davids----Neeskens-----
-----------------Bozsik-----------------

Beat that!
 

antohan

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On a different note, I think the setup is a quality diamond in the making. Just need to beat Gio and grab Neeskens as the prisoner of war.
Are you doing spoils of war style reinforcements? Awesome!

On the game... I'm a sucker for zona mista and like the interpretation re Greaves, Simonsen and Tarantini. Love it, not that there's much to pick on with Gio's side, as usual.

By the way, played beach footie against Tarantini once. He handed me my ass on a plate, but I got him to wobble off the pitch after a strong but fair tackle. My claim to fame as a player... ignore the part where I'm about 20 years younger than him :lol:
 

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Simonsen can play in rw position easily,In Gladbach he played at this a lot of times Espically 1975-1976 and 1976-1977.Graves and Muller would be an upgrade on Henning Jensen and Jupp Heynckes.He played this role very well in big games especially against Real Madrid in 1975 (destroyed Madrid backline and should won too) and Liverpool in 77 despite lost.

Both are god level sides @harms @Gio
 

General_Elegancia

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While what Romario and Rivaldo do is pretty straightforward, I wanted to expand a little on the role of Cubillas.


There are a few good examples in here, around the 2-3 minute mark, of those short-sharp one-twos that Romario thrived on throughout his career. Two pocket rockets with low centres of gravity exploding off each other.


Although he's a heavy-duty goalscorer - 350 goals over the course of his career, including 10 in World Cups - I think his main impact here is in that transition to attack, in rapidly shifting the ball forward, isolating Alba 1v1 and getting in behind the left-back to either go direct or feed Romario and Rivaldo.
He was a poor‘s man CAM version of Pele.His strengths was goalscoring and shooting.I think you use him in the right way ,he was more of secondary striker or atypical attacking midfielder who was more focus on scoring rather than playmaking and passing.His off ball movement when he wanted to find a space for scoring is very good but in term of linked up between played he wasn’t that good.

On rw he will do his things focus on scoring,make the great passes to Romario and not to focus on playmaking(which wasn’t his strength).
 
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Gio

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He was a poor‘s man CAM version of Pele.His strengths was goalscoring and shooting.I think you use him in the right,he was more of secondary striker or atypical attacking midfielder who was more focus on scoring rather than playmaking and passing.His off ball movement when he wanted to find a space for scoring is very good but in term of linked up between played he wasn’t that good.

On rw he will do his things focus on scoring,make the great passes to Romario and not to focus on playmaking(which wasn’t his strength).
That’s fair. Zidane is the main midfield playmaker in that respect. Cubillas is much more direct which is why I wanted him closer to goal. I would say his link up, mostly with other Peruvians, could be really incisive bursting through lines. But as you say he was effective getting on the end of things or dancing through. And it’s arguably an area of the park where we could get some joy, given Alba’s forward duties.
 

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The clearest route to goal looks like Rivaldo up against Tarantini. Here are some examples of Rivaldo scoring great goals from the left-hand side of the attack, including a solo effort against a Valencia defence that was probably the best in Europe at the time.





Here are also some example of his ability to create goals from the left. Note how his crossing isn't high and hopeful, but low and hard - precisely the service that Brazilian number 9s want. [Romario scored plenty of those over the years and perhaps the classic example was his Bebeto-fed low cross against the Dutch in that QF in '94]





It's not just a head-to-head match-up, but an area of the park where should expect some joy. With Zidane and Rivaldo ganging up there, in an area defended by Bozsik and Tarantini, there will be opportunities for Rivaldo to unfurl that left peg.
 

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Might as well put both of you in the randomizer and solve this (the scary part is that both teams had injuries to some brilliant players).
I definitely don't like Alba in such a prominent role, but then again he has Cubillas on his side who won't excatly stretch him, but go more centrally and Godin/Davids to cover. He might even have a solid game in that sense.

@Gio more on Arce and what kind of fullback he was?
 

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By the way, played beach footie against Tarantini once. He handed me my ass on a plate, but I got him to wobble off the pitch after a strong but fair tackle. My claim to fame as a player... ignore the part where I'm about 20 years younger than him :lol:
:drool:

I remember watching a game from 1988 — Italy '82 vs Rest of the World '82, with Tarantini starting as a right back. It was an exhibition game, so obviously the stakes were non-existent which allowed players to have the most fun with the ball. He was soo good! It really surprised me as he looked absolutely on par with the likes of Breitner-Falcão-Junior which is not the level of technical ability that I would expect him to match (again, friendly game, no stakes etc.).

Boniek - Blokhin - Kempes
Platini
Falcão - Junior
Breitner - Krol - Förster - Tarantini
Pfaff​
 

Gio

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Might as well put both of you in the randomizer and solve this (the scary part is that both teams had injuries to some brilliant players).
I definitely don't like Alba in such a prominent role, but then again he has Cubillas on his side who won't excatly stretch him, but go more centrally and Godin/Davids to cover. He might even have a solid game in that sense.

@Gio more on Arce and what kind of fullback he was?
Trent + defending. That's a bit reductive, but the easiest way to sum it up. Probably had the most potent right foot of any of the great / top 50 right-backs. Big threat from set-pieces with his Beckham-esque whip and delivery. One of a handful of defenders to have scored more than 100 goals in their career. For the national team I think it was Cuevas ahead of him in an inside-forward role and they formed a productive partnership. Defensively he always looked pretty good. I wouldn't want to oversell him in that regard as you really need to see more of his week-to-week career, but for Paraguay he was an important part of a rock solid defensive outfit. Always looked solid in the World Cups too when coming up against some talented attacks (Spain, Bulgaria, Nigeria, France, Germany), where he was their main build-up route from deeper areas and had attacking responsibilities to balance.

As an aside, I thought this interview was quite interesting featuring two of our players here - Zico and Arce.


Not that I understood much of it, but the consistently fawning comments on the video show just how Arce is regarded in South America. He was runner-up in the South American Player of the Year in 1999. Again that's quite telling as I think the only defenders to have won the award are Figueroa, Ruggeri and Cafu.
 

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Sadly this is the only Greaves compilation that I've made but it really highlights his overall game. He plays off Gilzean, setting up so many chances from out wide & from deeper areas, producing 2 assists and, of course, scoring one of the finest individual goals of his career:


Also, I'm always going to be in love with this performance by Scirea — such a brilliant performance from 2 all-time great liberos (Baresi was marvellous as well).
Scirea beating Baresi & 2 other Milan defenders to make a cross towards Platini :drool:


 

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I feel we can force a small but crucial advantage in the centre of the prark. Admittedly I'm pretty top-heavy myself in keeping with the theme, but how I'd see this panning out is Davids working hard to keep tabs on Neeskens, a combination of the 3 of Goncalves, Campbell and Baresi squeezing space for the formidable Zico and Muller partnership, with Bozsik squared up against Zidane. Bozsik can do some defending, but ultimately his strengths were playmaking, so I fancy Zidane to break through enough times to make a telling impact.

Here is Neeskens' ever-impressive all-round game, and fittingly for the draft the video is complete with 70s porno music - although the closest thing you'll see to a hairy bush is Jairzinho's afro in the background when Johan nets against the Brazilians. Neeskens also loves seizing and firing those early balls forward and the sharpness of delivery is something, again, that Romario would love to get in about.

 

harms

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I kinda feel like you're sacrificing a lot defensively — Sorin and Arce were both fantastic attacking fullbacks but not really water-tight in defense and you're asking both to provide width here since all your attackers are cutting in (and I don't see you sacrificing any of your attacking players to make others more comfortable).

It's the same as with my midfield and it's not surprising at all, since both areas where we have numerical advantage are directly connected. I feel like you'd struggle to contain my attack even with one of your fullbacks getting caught in behind — you simply lack the numbers, and the same can be said about my midfield and your attackers that all tend to drift towards that number 10 area overloading it.
 

harms

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Hence why I think this will be a high-scoring fixture despite the impressive defensive units, but I believe that I have more goals in my side with Müller, Greaves & Zico to end up on top here.
 

Gio

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I kinda feel like you're sacrificing a lot defensively — Sorin and Arce were both fantastic attacking fullbacks but not really water-tight in defense and you're asking both to provide width here since all your attackers are cutting in (and I don't see you sacrificing any of your attacking players to make others more comfortable).

It's the same as with my midfield and it's not surprising at all, since both areas where we have numerical advantage are directly connected. I feel like you'd struggle to contain my attack even with one of your fullbacks getting caught in behind — you simply lack the numbers, and the same can be said about my midfield and your attackers that all tend to drift towards that number 10 area overloading it.
I don't think you'd get a number advantage in your attack. Or to put it another way, we wouldn't have Sorin, Arce and Neeskens all bombing forward at the same time. Again it was part of the rationale there in choosing those 3 players is that they'd all be proper two-way players who could sit back when needed to provide cover. My belief there is that you can be more flexible and easily respond to threats in different areas when you have two-way players, rather than, for instance, a full-back with limited attacking abilities. Ultimately the plan would always to have that extra body in that central defensive area, and there is nobody better than Baresi in providing that premium insurance cover.
 
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Gio

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Hence why I think this will be a high-scoring fixture despite the impressive defensive units, but I believe that I have more goals in my side with Müller, Greaves & Zico to end up on top here.
Certainly have shedloads of goals in there. And I know Greaves can be provider too, but I'd probably prefer more of a space creator foil in that supporting left-hand side role, as it could get awfully congested in there with two thoroughbred goalscorers and a no10 who also scored bazillions as well.

Comparatively, we are slightly more geared to creating chances, but we've got a lot to offer in putting them away too:
  • Rivaldo - 412 career goals, including 8 at World Cups
  • Romario - 780 career goals, including 5 at the '94 WC
  • Cubillas - 350 career goals, including 10 at World Cups
And secondary goal threats in Neeskens and Zidane who made careers out of turning up in big moments to make the difference, scoring 4 goals in World Cup Finals - the very pinnacle of the sport - between them.

[usual waiver applies = obviously, it's not just about squeezing in as many goalscorers as possible, but about building a team that can control games and provide the right service to win games.]
 

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Cheers @Gio.

Harms has a bit of advantage in terms of defensive workrate from his forward line (Simonsen and especially Muller can heavily contribute) compared to Zidane, Cubillas, Romario on the other side. With Nestor screening and holding, Neeskens might end up doing too much heavy lifting in the end.

Spliting hair here obviously, but there is no other way. Agree about this being a high scoring game also.
 

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Sadly this is the only Greaves compilation that I've made but it really highlights his overall game. He plays off Gilzean, setting up so many chances from out wide & from deeper areas, producing 2 assists and, of course, scoring one of the finest individual goals of his career:

Love the use of Greaves btw, never liked how he was used until now, which was mostly as a lone striker.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Got to say, great match this so far. Probably, the pick of the round 1 games
 

antohan

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Trent + defending. That's a bit reductive, but the easiest way to sum it up. Probably had the most potent right foot of any of the great / top 50 right-backs. Big threat from set-pieces with his Beckham-esque whip and delivery. One of a handful of defenders to have scored more than 100 goals in their career. For the national team I think it was Cuevas ahead of him in an inside-forward role and they formed a productive partnership. Defensively he always looked pretty good. I wouldn't want to oversell him in that regard as you really need to see more of his week-to-week career, but for Paraguay he was an important part of a rock solid defensive outfit. Always looked solid in the World Cups too when coming up against some talented attacks (Spain, Bulgaria, Nigeria, France, Germany), where he was their main build-up route from deeper areas and had attacking responsibilities to balance.

As an aside, I thought this interview was quite interesting featuring two of our players here - Zico and Arce.


Not that I understood much of it, but the consistently fawning comments on the video show just how Arce is regarded in South America. He was runner-up in the South American Player of the Year in 1999. Again that's quite telling as I think the only defenders to have won the award are Figueroa, Ruggeri and Cafu.
To put it in simple terms, back in the 90s you struggled to separate Arce and Cafú as the best rightbacks. Of course, one went on to have a great European career and played for Brazil, while Arce didn't, and that shows in their relative standings in the game.

It was no coincidence though that when Cafú left Palmeiras for Roma, it was Arce they brought in to replace him*. Think about it: a player like Cafú and the impact he has on how you defend, transition, attack... you get that wrong and it all goes tits up rather quickly. Arce became as important a player for them as Cafú had been, so no, you aren't overselling him.

You can say Cafú wasn't the finished article and he had an extra gear to go through and access a completely different tier. Absolutely. But being as key, consistent and reliable a performer at rightback as a "young" Cafú is a pretty high standard. It's not exactly a yong and lernin Cafú anyway, he had already won one WC and been an integral part of a dominant São Paulo side.

It's actually quite weird how their careers played out. Both were of similar stature in the game around the 27/28yo mark when that switch took place. Cafú had moved to Europe before and failed. I'm not entirely convinced it's him being a strong "late developer" ala Jamie Vardy, or more a case of the attacking fullback coming to the fore in Europe at the exact right time for him. So while Cafú wound up providing the width for Serie-A winning Roma, or Milan's all-conquering diamond, Arce was in retirement mode in the J-league.

*Was a bit of a no-brainer really. I remember one Copa which pitted Gremio and Palmeiras against each other: it was a goalfest and both were instrumental to their sides in very much the same way to the point they both scored as well. Think it was ultimately Arce scoring the winner in the penalty shootout. I may be mixing that up, but that was also a constant, he always went 5th and always scored, not that it counts for shit here.
 

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Love the use of Greaves btw, never liked how he was used until now, which was mostly as a lone striker.
Agree and disagree at the same time. Whenever I've seen any footage he did indeed strike me as a lot more than a striker/poucher, more of a Rooney type. That said, I find nothing wrong with having such a player leading the attack. It's not as creative and nuanced as sticking him as the wide forward in a zona mista, granted, kudos for that.
 

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Cheers @Gio.

Harms has a bit of advantage in terms of defensive workrate from his forward line (Simonsen and especially Muller can heavily contribute) compared to Zidane, Cubillas, Romario on the other side. With Nestor screening and holding, Neeskens might end up doing too much heavy lifting in the end.

Spliting hair here obviously, but there is no other way. Agree about this being a high scoring game also.
In the round we're about even. Granted Romario and Cubillas won't do much, while I don't envisage Greaves and Zico doing all that much either. I think Rivaldo in a wider role is likely to put a shift in, whereas sometimes playing as a central attacking midfielder, he'd do that no10 thing of not working as hard because you want to be free when you get the ball. And I'd evidence that based on what I saw of him out wide left for Deportivo, early at Barcelona and for Brazil in 1998, compared to later in his career. Otherwise I think we get more of a two-way game from our full-backs and think we'll get a touch more defensive work from Tito and Neeskens versus Bozsik and Davids, but would appreciate it's fairly marginal altogether.