The knives are sharpening....
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Indeed the points tally isn't that promising when you look at it in the cold light of day. 66 points first season, 66 points second season, 74 points third season. For all the good work off the pitch - and there has been good work - the actual improvement on it hasnt been that great. Without doubt the trajectory needed to be a lot steeper this season to achieve much.
I hate to admit I’m glad he’s been called out. We can’t afford to dither with him for much longer.
If Jan Fjørtoft tweets something negative, it is over. Hasn't happened yet.
I was always under the impression that if I quote I don’t need to tag? Can you highlight where I haven’t tagged or taken out the quote so the quoted person doesn’t get notified? I don’t think I’ve ever done that?
So we agree here, in terms of the microanalysis, it’s not looking great no, and to be honest, I’m worried about the Villareal game with Maguire/Shaw being doubts. Our backups, while solid aren’t direct replacements.
Things do need to improve somewhat and I’m not gonna stand here and say that it doesn’t need improvement. Not blind faith, like I said I don’t like the constant throwing him under the bus for every time we lose, it doesn’t make any sense.
I wasn’t trying to be a wind up merchant at all, do you mind highlighting any that you/others felt or could be seen as a wum type of post & I’ll evaluate them & take in your advice as to why they may be seen that way, if you’re willing to of course, to become a better poster on here?
One would assume that is for the public to see, where he absolutely berated Lingard, could be seen as a slip up of his public persona, it has been said he’s not a “baby face” behind closed doors.
I think I'll miss his non controversial press conferences after he's gone. With Jose we had him throwing someone under the bus every other week - you could see the affect it had on Shaw, Martial, Rashford etc. Let the manager absorb the criticism and have the players receive the praise.
... and they will remain firmly on the table as long as we are just 1 point behind 1st place. The club will always focus on results relative to expectations and rightly so.
I don't think any manager at the highest level has been sacked for lacking "patterns of play" or whatever.
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If you had shown me a snapshot of the last few pages and sent them back in time to me a couple of months back, then I'd assume we had less than 9 points at this stage
I don't know why we're still having hopes on Ole leading us to glory, He's been here three years still we've not looked like winning Anything of note.
It'll be if the club relieves him from leading this team, nothing good woukd come out of this, if he remains it would end in very ugly.
It'll be if the club relieves him from leading this team, nothing good woukd come out of this, if he remains it would end in very ugly.
Yep. We're still in a good position. Even the treble is still technically on the table. But we have had 3 losses in 4 games. If it becomes 4 in 5, the pressure to replace Ole will truly be on.... and they will remain firmly on the table as long as we are just 1 point behind 1st place. The club will always focus on results relative to expectations and rightly so.
I don't think any manager at the highest level has been sacked for lacking "patterns of play" or whatever.
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If you had shown me a snapshot of the last few pages and sent them back in time to me a couple of months back, then I'd assume we had less than 9 points at this stage
How many top managers have you seen who throw players under the bus? Jose is the one crazy exception to the norm. Ole is like most other managers who shield their team in public. Unless lightning strikes twice, you won't have to worry about the manager throwing players under the bus even once Ole is gone.
Ole has got us to a final and numerous semifinals. He's clearly a good cup manager. With a better squad than ever, he's got as good a chance as anyone.
Oof, the press are going in on the school boy tactical errors at long last.
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Context matters.
The first loss was with 10 men for 1 hour(?).
The second loss was with a B/C team in a competition that isn't prioritised.
The last one is fair enough.
In the media and among fans in here, maybe. But inside the club? I highly doubt it.
Ole's at the wheel, you just got to trust him!
We get something like 85+ this season amd reach at least the quarters of the CL, then you can actually point at tangible progress. Anything less than that is just us being on the plateau which we are at now with Ole.
A lot of people who are supporting him are of the opinion that since he hasn't imploded then we should persist with him. Think they don't realize that the ones who feel he should go don't think that he will have us in 10th at the end of the season. They are just looking at our team and performances and realize that it's not actually tallying. With a more talented manager, this team has it in them to challenge for honours. Why waste a year moping around 3rd-4th when we can actually run the top teams close with a genuine chance at the title with a more accomplished manager.
The first loss was with 10 men for 1 hour(?) against a very poor side where Ole made enormous tactical blunders to bring them back into the game.
The second loss was with a B/C team in a competition that isn't prioritised against a B/C West Ham team.
Well, you are a participant in that echo chamber thread in the General, so I assume, like the others, that you quoted without tagging? If not, then apologies, as I can't be arsed checking.
Hmmmm, this all looked ok until the passive aggressive last sentence. Not sure why I would need to 'become a better poster' on here? What have I said that could be construed as bad posting, may I ask? I held my hands up to some shit posting about Ole back around 2019, but he changed my opinion on him, and I've always tried to be pretty rational since. I also didn't ask you to become a 'better poster' - I stated how you can actively participate in making the forum more pleasant by not wumming and feeding into the bullshit. I thought that was the goal around here? You can't complain about one side being irrational, but then contribute to it yourself.
I've quoted two posts below that you posted since Saturday, that I believe add absolutely nothing in the way of fair debate or nuanced discussion. If you don't see them as wummy type posts, then I guess you're quite the hypocrite. I really don't believe for a second that you have a desire to engage in reasoned debate, although your last post was certainly much better, bar your childish last sentence.
They're still not losses with something resembling the 1st team in competitions we prioritise.
But even if they were: look at the table. That's probably what matters the people who have to make decisions based on rationality. Thankfully. It would be a disaster if a bad month purely in isolation would be enough to get you sacked.
People on here said all through last season that poor Ole was only playing McFred because he had to in order to protect the centre backs, and that once we got a world class centre back to partner Maguire we would see an end to that. So what is the excuse now?
I have to point out that @UnitedSofa is never in that thread so that's a little unfair.
Fair enough, I did clarify later that I thought he was a participant. Apologies for that one @UnitedSofa
See this is where people disagree. People don't back him because we haven't imploded, but because he's meeting the pre-season expectations. And those expectations haven't been set low or anything - they're pretty reasonable, neither too high nor too low. If he fails to meet the expectations this time, I'm pretty sure a lot of us will go against him.
Coming to the next part of more talented manager - no team sacks a manager that's meeting the expectations and rightly so. Getting the right manager is as difficult if not more difficult than getting a right signing. So, unless the club has belief that the worst x manager can do is significantly higher than the current level, which in our case is ticking most of the boxes, you won't really see a managerial change. Either that or poor ROI on transfers made.
You also need to account for the worst case scenario in case the managerial appointment goes wrong. You sign a "proven winner" but he doesn't win you PL/CL, then in most likelihood, you'd be left with an ageing squad that will require another 3 years and half a billion to rebuild.
Some of this article, for balance, just reads like Luckhurst wants to put the boot in and isn't very insightful but the part that I do think is true is that we are too pragmatic and cautious in team selection. There has to be more risk and there has to be more rotation, Sancho on the bench against Villa and only two 'attacking' players on Ronaldo and Greenwood is just weird, even more so when you think of them only Greenwood has any real pace. Villa started Ings and Watkins, teams don't come to OT sitting back hoping for a draw anymore playing hoof ball, they press us knowing there's a good chance they'll get something - that confidence will only be heightened when there's less pace and threat on the counter.
Tbf losing two of your best defenders with injury makes the loss against Villa kinda understandable as well.
There will always be people who are short sighted. We have same points as Chelsea, ManCity and one behind Liverpool. All those clubs with managers that media love to talk about and hail as ultimate managers. But when it comes to us it is all hell break lose after one defeat despite being up there at the top. We know ManUtd news sell regardless of news quality.
Solskjaer is doing good job and so is his staff. Progress is clear as day even if it can go up and down.
FFS we haven’t finished September and the Ole out brigade have started……..
Lampard, where is he now? Do you think PL club chairmen are mugs and don't know what happened with Ole and how he got those top 4 finishes?
Ole and Lampard are not self made managers like Benitez, Moyes etc they got the big jobs because of their playing careers and proceeded to spend tons of money so it's pretty easy to conclude that the financial power of the clubs they played for and later managed is the determinant factor in their high league finishes. Who else could afford to spend £50m on Bruno for Ole in midseason? Some could argue that this is the player that saved Ole's job then.
I think he has done what we brought him in for, stabilize the club in the top 4. The next step is beyond him because at this level the margin for error is too fine and Ole's performances are wildly inconsistent to mount a successful challenge. I said this yesterday, once the pressure of expectation dies down, after we have lost enough ground to be considered a genuine contender, he can put up a run to salvage a third place finish but it's not enough when we are closing in on ten years without a title challenge.
Incredible really.
It’s not a reason for the obvious lack of game plan without them. After we missed the chance to score through Greenwood’s zeal( forgivable) the team was being played off the park by Villa. Defender out or not, it wasn’t pretty
I've calmest down since the weekend and am back to having a foot on either side of the argument
I'm very nervous about the run of fixtures we have coming up though,
I'm very nervous about the run of fixtures we have coming up though,
The irony
Well putting so much stock in stats like this are absurd. The caretaker season is excusable as he took over an ailing team from a morale point of view. Last season through Covid was a strange one for most.
This one is the one that should be scrutinised
I don't think we'd be in that position. We have a lot of talent coming through, we've signed numerous teenagers in the last 3 or 4 years and we should see the benefits in the coming seasons.
Our core players are mostly under 30, and it shouldn't take half a billion to rebuild in a few seasons time. We could've done it for less this time with smarter recuritment and a clearer playing philosophy would've avoided certain mistakes.
The alternative is to keep stagnating which could be disastrous if top players try to push for a move and we become a less desirable place for players to join
Judge at end of season, as of end of last season Ole had best win rate since SAF whose stats are ridiculous……..win rate of 59.7%
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer (2018-July 2021) Matches: 151. Wins: 84. Win percentage: 55.6 per cent
Jose Mourinho (2016-18) Matches: 93. Wins: 50. Win percentage: 53.8 per cent
Louis Van Gaal (2014-16) Matches: 76. Wins: 39. Win percentage: 51.3 per cent
David Moyes (2013-14) Matches: 34. Wins: 17. win percentage: 50.0 per cent
SAF
Games in charge: 1500
Wins: 895
Win percentage: 59.7%
Is it? It seems a bit of a cherry-picked stat devoid of context. I'm assuming they've picked the home stat as it's worse than the away one. It's a 50% win rate which doesn't sound terrible, necessarily but they haven't compared it to the other teams in the league. Is it the worst of the top 6, Is it mid-table home form?
and you have to consider the bag of sh&£e that be inherited into that……
The caretaker season begun really well and then there was a big drop off at the end, which has happened in the last couple of seasons too. It should all be scrutinised, although now there will be no doubts about that, the team at his disposal makes that a certainty.
The away form has been brilliant. No question. But in terms of winning at home, I wouldn't really compare to Arsenal or Spurs, if that's what you're implying here. I would just take it as a given that if you are a good side you have a very good home record. I think a 50% win record at home for a team like ours is really really really poor.
Some of our memories stretch back further than August, he made a catalog of errors last season, some genuinely sackable because of bad and basic they were, and already he's back at it. He will probably continue to make costly errors because of his tactical ineptitude and stubbornness, so why delay the inevitable? It should be in the club's best interest to have the best possible manager managing the team, because by getting the most out of your players it adds £100 million's worth onto the squad value, and you're much more likely to succeed.
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