The McFred midfield duo

[::sonny::]

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[bugmat]

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Rubbish tweet.

In the first case the team was already defending in the box and the spaces in midfield at that point have to be covered by our attackers (Pogba , Bruno, Mason) McT did leave his man to double team with a CB (Varane?), while Fred was already there tackling (his tackle sent the man towards or CB) and it's Scott's former mark that scores. That was the error - leaving his mark - but has nothing to do with leaving gaps in CM. He had to trust Varane to defend one-on-one and not try to help.

Second screenshot - the whole team is moving and re-organising after a switch of flank play by the opposition. The only one there with a gap to cover who could be considered out of position (and he was slow at doing so as usual) was Pogba.

 

[Mickson]

Rubbish tweet.

In the first case the team was already defending in the box and the spaces in midfield at that point have to be covered by our attackers (Pogba , Bruno, Mason) McT did leave his man to double team with a CB (Varane?), while Fred was already there tackling (his tackle sent the man towards or CB) and it's Scott's former mark that scores. That was the error - leaving his mark - but has nothing to do with leaving gaps in CM. He had to trust Varane to defend one-on-one and not try to help.

Second screenshot - the whole team is moving and re-organising after a switch of flank play by the opposition. The only one there with a gap to cover who could be considered out of position (and he was slow at doing so as usual) was Pogba.

Correct. McFred isn't the greatest but they usually have a ridiculous amount of space to cover for 90 minutes. Everyone would look poor in our midfield, which is exactly what everyone does too.

 

[Canagel]

Midfield unfortunately is the crux of why we are bad and it demonstrates Ole's incompetence more than anything.
Would just like to dispel a few myths and narratives that Ole convinced us to be true but it couldnt be further from reality.

Its that we just dont have capable midfield players and therefore we need to patch it up with McFred. At first narrative was it cant work cuz Lindelof and Maguire are slow, now its that we just cant work unless we have 2 Kante's.

Pogba and VDB are pefectly fine midfielders. Its not true that Pogba only plays with Kante for France, narrative is Kante covers so much ground so Pogba can work.
He played lately in the midfield duo with young 21 yeat old Tchoumani. Worked perfectly well.
So do we sign Tchoumani, would that work? We know the answer to that, it wouldnt.

Look at Chelsea. They play sometimes without Kante, with the midfield trio of Kovacic, Jorghino and Mount. Are you really telling me thats more defensive than Pogba, Bruno, VDB would be? Thats ridiculous.

The reality is we have no midfield structure whatsoever and it exposes Ole so much.
Both Pogba and VDB are perfectly capable midfield players but we act like we need 2 Kantes.
Conte is the obvious answer now. He knows how to win plus he is the first coach to use Pogba well. The man knows how to do it, its time for a change. We shouldnt believe Oles narratives about our midfield, just excuses. Truth is he is a PE teacher.

Spot on. good post.

 

[tomaldinho1]

interesting high level read which focuses on McFred and then goes onto build up issues then Sancho:
Manchester United: What's going wrong and the problems for Ole Gunnar Solskjaer to solve | Football News | Sky Sports

Key point for me is Fred's pass accuracy (not a surprise to anyone) which is really poor when you think the types of passes he'll generally play won't be that difficult. That and the quote about bypassing McFred:

In fact, they were largely bypassed altogether - both by Villa, who carved through them with ease on several occasions, and their own team-mates, who frequently looked towards the flanks instead.

which is spot on & hopefully will be addressed.

 

[sherrinford]

I strongly disagree.


It was always the center defence. Previously they did not have the collective pace to play a highline. Yet both like to advance with the ball. The created to issues:
Necessitating 2 players had to cover for their collective lack of recovery pace

At home they'd create a no man's land between them and the midfield. Making it easy for us to be caught on the counter. Yet if the pair sat to deep our creative and attacking out put would suffer. Since we'd have to sacrifice a forward to accomdate a second midfield playmaker. As opposed to away where we played a deeper line.


Both those issues showed up on our shocking home firm as result.



With Varane starting at fit how the front 4 are set up defensively doesn't matter. Plus the defence now only needs one dedicated shield from midfield




To be fair. This is a good point.


Sancho was brought to help is stretch the on the the right like we do on the left.

So unless he finally hots form and takes over from Greenwood there. Or Dalot over takes AWB to do what Shaw does on the left. Failure to consistently stretch team on both sides will show up as results against low block sides.

I can't agree.

In periods where we were able to sustain pressure on opposition in prior seasons we were perfectly happy with Maguire and Lindelof pushed right up at the half way line, and as a last line of two. If we were concerned that this combination of players could not adequately cover ground we would absolutely not have set up with only the two of them to cover the width of the pitch. Having two players screening in front of them does not negate that.

It's all about the front four. Fred and McTominay best compensate for our '3' in the 4-2-3-1 not tracking what you would typically call their direct opponents (the fullbacks and deepest midfielder) with the amount of ground they can cover, and how quickly they can cover it. Pogba and Van de Beek may be more desirable options in that area of the pitch generally speaking, but not quite so when viewed through the prism of our particular setup.

 

[Andycoleno9]

We have 6 midfielders and some of you behave that our midfield don't work just because McT and Fred are not good enough. Isn't a managers job to find system and right players to make it work? Especially with having excellent players in defence and attack like we have.
1) he can train team and players better ("famous" patterns of play)
2) change system (352, 433, 4141 etc..)
3) try other combinations of midfield duo. I refuse to believe that our two technically worst midfielders (who are not something special in defence either) are better combo than Pogba and Matic, Donny and Matic, Pogba and Donny etc....

At this moment, McFred are only bodies in defensive block. Ole is too obsessed with protecting defence and he is throwing all cards on "attack will do something".

 

[RedStarUnited]

The McFred is OK when all they have to do is break up the oppositions play, but when they have to create and move us forward, its hopeless.

There is some hope for McT, e.g. a younger Matic beside might help him up his game in terms of going forward, but Fred is a one speed destroyer, he has his uses in certain games; however, when he is in our final third he is likely to give away a free kick, when he is in the opposing final third he has to be content in playing short 'wall' type passes and often gets it wrong even then.

Fred is one of our most hard workers, but he is only ever going to be a second streamer.

Fred maybe but Scott is always missing in defence. Jorginho makes more tackles and interceptions per 90 mins than Scott. Jorginho who everyone thinks he is in the team to pass the ball.

 

[Jeppers7]

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Spot on. They are both terrible at sensing danger. The West Ham goal was just a ridiculous decision from McT and one he makes time and again.

 

[432JuanMata]

Both used to get plaudits when they played in big games due to us sitting deep and both working hard but in games where we are the team on top they are woeful together. I’m not joking when I say it’s our worst CM pairing in years. Djemba Djemba Kleberson level

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

What else can I say? That duo will end up costing Ole's job because 1) that's a coward's tactic and 2) both mids are plain mediocre.

Both used to get plaudits when they played in big games due to us sitting deep and both working hard but in games where we are the team on top they are woeful together. I’m not joking when I say it’s our worst CM pairing in years. Djemba Djemba Kleberson level

Fecking hell, that was exactly what I had in mind. An era of darkness whenever we had any of those 2 clowns on the pitch.

 

[YeahYeah]

VDB is probably miles better than both. I say probably cuz we rarely get to see him, makes you wonder if he is even real or its a myth that we have this guy VDB on our team.

I dont buy that McFred do more defensively than VDB.
I also dont buy that theyre even comparable to him overall, think most managers would pick VDB over both Mc and Fred any day.

Ole needs 2 Kantes in a midfield. He could never get away with playing Mount-Kovacic-Jorghinho or KDB-Rodri-Gundogan. And at first narrative was that Lindelof was the problem cuz CBs were too slow.

 

[GueRed]

They try hard and leave everything on the pitch. So I cant hate them.

The lack of quality is very frustrating though.

 

[Ixion]

The way I look at it is would any other really big club take either of them off our hands if they could and the answer is obviously not, they'd go to an Everton or Villa. Now players like them totally have a place in the squad and I don't have particular problem with either of them but not as your engine that you build your team around every single game.

 

[Litch]

Well it's clear Ole views about them so they are going no where for this season at least.......

 

[Berbasbullet]

Wouldn’t shock me if they play today, to be fair Mctominay had a good final against them.

 

[Litch]

The way I look at it is would any other really big club take either of them off our hands if they could and the answer is obviously not, they'd go to an Everton or Villa. Now players like them totally have a place in the squad but not as your engine and building your team around every single game.

I hear you and you are probably right but I say it again, they don't pick themselves. You could say the actually the same about whether Ole would get a job with a big team either? He doesn't employ himself either? If you pick an inexperienced manager and coaches, no system, you end up with a Scott and Fred. Buy Rice or any other CDM doesn't backfill these issues. You can buy a Ferrari, doesn't make you a better driver.

 

[Ikon]

Dress it up as much as you like, but the simple truth is, neither one of this pair would be getting starts for top 4 rivals.

 

[captaincantona]

Looking at Herrera, Gueye and Veratti / Rodri, Bernardo and DB last night. All 6 are completely secure in possession and what I noticed most was they were all making runs and demanding the ball consistently throughout the game- even in really tight spaces. Personality out the door.

If you leave DB and Veratti aside - they are just world class talents. The others all have the ability to receive and use the ball in tight spaces, confidence to want that ball and positional acumen. Each of these players got forward, created space, recovered when necessary and lost the ball very infrequently.

Contrary to what Ole had cited as being the most important quality in a team, these two midfields battled as if their lives depended on it. Character all across the park. So the fact that McFred “give their all for the shirt” is quite frankly a prerequisite of playing elite football. As Keane himself would say, “is that not just his job...the very least a professional footballer needs to do”?

McFred can be matched for heart and industry by any midfield from a premier league/champions league level side on a given day - what’s missing is the ability on the ball and the personality to WANT the ball...not on our own halfway line or as an option behind the attacking full back, recycling the ball sideways- it’s to have the ability to make runs into areas where you can effect the game, to take charge and have the quality to progress the play. Ole talks about midfielders of back in the day...those lads didn’t just run all day, they imposed themselves on the game through their ability WITH the ball- arguably, McFred are in the team for what they do WITHOUT the ball and you can’t carry two players like that at the top level.

Maybe McFred are instructed to be less dynamic and to contribute less in attacking phases...but my point is, even if they were encouraged to be more expansive - they do not have the ability on the ball to execute that type of approach. They are our best chance of getting a result, not our best chance of playing better football.

 

[spiriticon]

We need one hounddog and one with defensive positional sense who can play the ball (like a prime Carrick or Busquets).

Two hounddogs is just overkill against teams who let us have most of the possession, and it also leaves gaps of space everywhere since you can't hound a player without leaving your post.

 

[Ayoba]

Ole clearly likes them so they will be the majority of the games, we just need to accept it.

 

[romufc]

We need one hounddog and one with defensive positional sense who can play the ball (like a prime Carrick or Busquets).

Two hounddogs is just overkill against teams who let us have most of the possession and also leaves gaps of space everywhere.

This is exactly what we need.

When you watch players like De Jong, Verrati, Gundogan, jorginho and the way they beat the press with forward passes and when given time are dangerous too, shows why we need that ilk of player.

At the moment with us, teams know they can back off McFred and nothing happens, and if they want to they can press them and know theyll win the ball of them.

 

[Lentwood]

Perhaps we (and I include myself in this) have been thinking about this wrong.

Clearly, Ole believes that McFred give us stability, in that having them as a defensive pair prevents us being counter-attacked. However, there are three, obvious issues with this.

1) DO they actually prevent us being counter-attacked? Fred is slow and weak, McTominay doesn't seem to screen that defence at all, and just goes wnadering.

2) They are poor on the ball, quite often, it's Fred or McT tracking back to prevent a counter-attack when THEY gave the ball away

3) Their teammates don't trust them. This is the most damning for me. Be under no illusions, the likes of Maguire, Varane, Fernandes, Pogba, Shaw, AWB etc...will KNOW that Fred and McT are not that great on the ball. You can see it, in the way that they are reluctant to give them the ball if they are even remotely under pressure, or unless they have an obvious passing angle. Watch the PSG vs City game last night. Every player has absolute trust in their teammates to keep the ball under pressure.

Again, we see evidence of this in how few touches McFred had against Aston Villa, Their teammates don't look for them, instead looking to bypass them and hit the wingers/forwards earlier. This in-turn leads to more turnovers, because these passes are high-risk.

So, rather than worry about how to defend the counter, should we instead focus on picking players who won't lead to so many turnovers? Whilst a midfield two of Pogba and vdB would be weaker defensively, they would be much more comfortable in possession and I would be hopeful that we could control more games as a result.

I think it's got to be worth a try at this stage. If we proceed with McFred, our ceiling is 3rd-place, given the current strength of the PL

 

[laughtersassassin]

McFred are living off the fact they helped us beat the top six two seasons ago. Despite the fact they where found out last season in th same games.

 

[kouroux]

Looking at Herrera, Gueye and Veratti / Rodri, Bernardo and DB last night. All 6 are completely secure in possession and what I noticed most was they were all making runs and demanding the ball consistently throughout the game- even in really tight spaces. Personality out the door.

If you leave DB and Veratti aside - they are just world class talents. The others all have the ability to receive and use the ball in tight spaces, confidence to want that ball and positional acumen. Each of these players got forward, created space, recovered when necessary and lost the ball very infrequently.

Contrary to what Ole had cited as being the most important quality in a team, these two midfields battled as if their lives depended on it. Character all across the park. So the fact that McFred “give their all for the shirt” is quite frankly a prerequisite of playing elite football. As Keane himself would say, “is that not just his job...the very least a professional footballer needs to do”?

McFred can be matched for heart and industry by any midfield from a premier league/champions league level side on a given day - what’s missing is the ability on the ball and the personality to WANT the ball...not on our own halfway line or as an option behind the attacking full back, recycling the ball sideways- it’s to have the ability to make runs into areas where you can effect the game, to take charge and have the quality to progress the play. Ole talks about midfielders of back in the day...those lads didn’t just run all day, they imposed themselves on the game through their ability WITH the ball- arguably, McFred are in the team for what they do WITHOUT the ball and you can’t carry two players like that at the top level.

Maybe McFred are instructed to be less dynamic and to contribute less in attacking phases...but my point is, even if they were encouraged to be more expansive - they do not have the ability on the ball to execute that type of approach. They are our best chance of getting a result, not our best chance of playing better football.

And as we can also see it, it's not just PL sides who can up their intensity on any given day. Most teams of Europe can do that too.

 

[Lentwood]

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I blame McFred for a lot, but I don't blame them for those goals, certainly no more than about 3/4 other players.

You can't expect them to LITERALLY stand within ten feet of Maguire and Varane all game, that's not what people mean by 'sitting'!

 

[the_answer]

Looking at Herrera, Gueye and Veratti / Rodri, Bernardo and DB last night. All 6 are completely secure in possession and what I noticed most was they were all making runs and demanding the ball consistently throughout the game- even in really tight spaces. Personality out the door.

If you leave DB and Veratti aside - they are just world class talents. The others all have the ability to receive and use the ball in tight spaces, confidence to want that ball and positional acumen. Each of these players got forward, created space, recovered when necessary and lost the ball very infrequently.

Contrary to what Ole had cited as being the most important quality in a team, these two midfields battled as if their lives depended on it. Character all across the park. So the fact that McFred “give their all for the shirt” is quite frankly a prerequisite of playing elite football. As Keane himself would say, “is that not just his job...the very least a professional footballer needs to do”?

McFred can be matched for heart and industry by any midfield from a premier league/champions league level side on a given day - what’s missing is the ability on the ball and the personality to WANT the ball...not on our own halfway line or as an option behind the attacking full back, recycling the ball sideways- it’s to have the ability to make runs into areas where you can effect the game, to take charge and have the quality to progress the play. Ole talks about midfielders of back in the day...those lads didn’t just run all day, they imposed themselves on the game through their ability WITH the ball- arguably, McFred are in the team for what they do WITHOUT the ball and you can’t carry two players like that at the top level.

Maybe McFred are instructed to be less dynamic and to contribute less in attacking phases...but my point is, even if they were encouraged to be more expansive - they do not have the ability on the ball to execute that type of approach. They are our best chance of getting a result, not our best chance of playing better football.

Exactly!

McFred always seem to need to take 1-2 more touches to control the ball than the likes of Veratti. Always need to adjust their body a bit more and a bit longer to pass the ball.
Its simply not good enough. Herrera is industrious... AND can play. And he is not even the best on your list. Just good enough to do the job.

McFred are simply not good enough to do a basic job at a top top club.

Find the error here:
Bayern: Kimmich-Goretzka
Real: Kroos - Modric (back then when they were winning CLs)
Dortmund: Witsel-Bellingham
Chelsea: Kante-Jorginho-Kovacic
United: Fred-McTominay
...

 

[Maticmaker]

Oh, just to see any of our midfield players start making late runs into the box, lads please just try it!!.... can remember Bryan Robson on one occasion starting his late run ten yards inside his own half as the ball was worked up the left wing, he arrived (blindside to defenders) almost on the edge of the 6 yard box, received the ball controlled it with his thigh and as it dropped smashed the ball home... warms the cockles of my heart just thinking about it! Even if their creativity is almost non-existent surely Fred or McT could have a go at copying Robson, ...must be a video tape somewhere in the club!

 

[Castia]

Worrying that in Ole’s eyes these 2 are doing a good job. Is he fecking blind?

 

[Litch]

Exactly!

McFred always seem to need to take 1-2 more touches to control the ball than the likes of Veratti. Always need to adjust their body a bit more and a bit longer to pass the ball.
Its simply not good enough. Herrera is industrious... AND can play. And he is not even the best on your list. Just good enough to do the job.

McFred are simply not good enough to do a basic job at a top top club.

Find the error here:
Bayern: Kimmich-Goretzka
Real: Kroos - Modric (back then when they were winning CLs)
Dortmund: Witsel-Bellingham
Chelsea: Kante-Jorginho-Kovacic
United: Fred-McTominay
...

Do the same with the managers in that list. I really don't understand why people are moaning about McFred, they don't pick themselves. Also based on your argument, Fred and Scott have proven they are good enough to do a basic job at a top club, isnt that finish in a CL position and get to a cup semi or final? Not saying that's ok, but last 2 seasons, finished behind or ahead of the best two teams in Europe. Maybe that's why he plays them?

Good enough to win them, probably not but they are not the reason we haven't. Do we look any different in how we play with the addition of 3 class players? The problem is much more entrenched than that.....

 

[horsechoker]

Are people inflating just how bad they are? While we know they are not an elite pairing they were good enough to beat most of the league last season.

We must bear in mind that McTominay is coming back from injury and Fred is out of form. So while they are bad, they are arguably better than most of our other options. Matic is unfortunately too old and VDB doesn't seem trusted, the only solution is see at the moment is to try VDB in one of the midfield slots.

 

[Litch]

Worrying that in Ole’s eyes these 2 are doing a good job. Is he fecking blind?

Not saying it's right, know the arguments about style of play, negative football, McFred technical ability, ability to pass etc

But, if you had two plays that played consistently that contributed to keeping you in a job, got you out the shit when it looked you were losing it, Europa semi arguably Fred was MOTM for the first hour and Scott in last years final was better than Pogs, got you to 3rd and the 2nd, that's his rationale for playing them. If he applied that to Pogs or Matic, arguably he'd have achieved less. Not saying it's right, just I believe that's his rationale for doing it.

 

[Lynty]

It's a passable midfield. Should still be good enough to get the better of that Villa midfield.

An argument could be made as to why we didn't prioritize upgrades in the summer, but I can also see why owe went with the transfer we did - no doubt about it, it was a strong window.

We were sniffing around midfielders trying to get a bargain, so Ole knows he needs to upgrade - but he also needs to get more out the ones we have.

Despite his obvious defensive issues, not choice but to bring Pogba back into the midfield as Fred has forgotten how to pass a ball more than 10 yards.

 

[the_answer]

Do the same with the managers in that list. I really don't understand why people are moaning about McFred, they don't pick themselves. Also based on your argument, Fred and Scott have proven they are good enough to do a basic job at a top club, isnt that finish in a CL position and get to a cup semi or final? Not saying that's ok, but last 2 seasons, finished behind or ahead of the best two teams in Europe. Maybe that's why he plays them?

Good enough to win them, probably not but they are not the reason we haven't. Do we look any different in how we play with the addition of 3 class players? The problem is much more entrenched than that.....

I agree. Ole hasnt proven to be a top-top level coach either.
I wouldnt mind going for a more proven coach OR a coach with higher potential.

Id say McFred are good enough for Top4. But I never felt we were challenging for the big titles CL and PL, which should be our standard, not finishing top4.
But I agree, they are a symptom of the problem, not the root cause.

 

[Litch]

Are people inflating just how bad they are? While we know they are not an elite pairing they were good enough to beat most of the league last season.

We must bear in mind that McTominay is coming back from injury and Fred is out of form. So while they are bad, they are arguably better than most of our other options. Matic is unfortunately too old and VDB doesn't seem trusted, the only solution is see at the moment is to try VDB in one of the midfield slots.

Ole is pragmatic and he'll look at it in that way. If you are in your dream job, once in a lifetime opportunity that would never present itself again, and you have 2 employees, respect each other, that turn up everyday, trusted, work hard and contributed to you keeping it, why would you fire them off and trust a bloke who is too old and good but turns up only 3 days a week, a highflyer that is superb but is inconsistent, always talks about leaving and you'd have to employ someone else to get the best out of him (or the old bloke) and he still leaves. Then there's the new kid, your boss employed him, thinking the highflyer was leaving and whilst he might be good, it's a risk cause you can only play him with the old bloke....

 

[the_answer]

Are people inflating just how bad they are? While we know they are not an elite pairing they were good enough to beat most of the league last season.

We must bear in mind that McTominay is coming back from injury and Fred is out of form. So while they are bad, they are arguably better than most of our other options. Matic is unfortunately too old and VDB doesn't seem trusted, the only solution is see at the moment is to try VDB in one of the midfield slots.

Id argue, that right now they are the weakest link. So we have to target this area.

McFred have never proven to be good enough.
I always wonder whether a player would do well leaving us, because thats prove that he has quality in general. Herrera is doing ok. Lukaku is doing well.
Id highly doube McFred would play at any other top club.

Now, yes right now we dont have better options, so its time to change that.

 

[Litch]

Id argue, that right now they are the weakest link. So we have to target this area.

McFred have never proven to be good enough.
I always wonder whether a player would do well leaving us, because thats prove that he has quality in general. Herrera is doing ok. Lukaku is doing well.
Id highly doube McFred would play at any other top club.

Now, yes right now we dont have better options, so its time to change that.

Weakest link based on what though? I think they can be improved on, but I can't honestly say, that's why we aren't playing well. If we are honest, Harry and Shaw have been poor, Pogs started well but has faded again, Sancho still finding his feet, Martial is struggling......it's not like the rest of the team is firing....

 

[Mentality Monsters]

I prefer Frominay.

 

[Ali Dia]

Weakest link based on what though? I think they can be improved on, but I can't honestly say, that's why we aren't playing well. If we are honest, Harry and Shaw have been poor, Pogs started well but has faded again, Sancho still finding his feet, Martial is struggling......it's not like the rest of the team is firing....

It just a much easier package to blame McFred like they are the same player. Pogba lost the ball every time he got it against Villa. McT was invisible. Did Ronaldo have a shot on target? Did Bruno? That’s probably also Fred’s fault. 28 shots but it’s the one man midfields fault for not also getting it forward with any purpose. It stands to reason if you attack that much with blunt predictable play out in front and commit more players forward you are eventually going to get countered and look open. We look wide open because we basically become all out attack trying to make something happen but essentially we just play right into the oppositions hands as we go through the motions.

 

[horsechoker]

Id argue, that right now they are the weakest link. So we have to target this area.

McFred have never proven to be good enough.
I always wonder whether a player would do well leaving us, because thats prove that he has quality in general. Herrera is doing ok. Lukaku is doing well.
Id highly doube McFred would play at any other top club.

Now, yes right now we dont have better options, so its time to change that.

We can only change it with existing players or change the tactics otherwise we have to wait until January at the earliest to buy better players. I'm open to trying VDB there in some way to see if it will actually improve things.