Hugh Jass
Shave Dass
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2016
- Messages
- 11,303
It is the way we are playing with the players we have. I dont think he is getting the best out of the players he has.
We finished 3rd the season before when there was a genuine thread talking about us being in a sodding relegation battle. It’s the same reactionary shite every year - rinse and repeat.We finished second last season when the majority of people didn't think we could make top 3, some even suggesting we wouldn't make top 4. If we're being completely honest we didn't have a squad capable of competing last season, so if anything, Ole actually overachieved.
How disrespectful. I did read your post but lots of it was also echoed in the other post I quoted.You’ve quoted me, but didn’t reply to anything I said. You’re saying it’s kneejerk, yet our record since Ole took over is worse than Mourinho’s record over his time here (Mourinho’s meltdown included).
I’ll repeat because you seem to selectively read. Over the 161 games under Ole, and compared to the 144 under Mourinho, we have a lower win rate, a lower points per match, and a lower goal difference per game. We constantly freeze on any big occasion (finals and semifinals) and lose to teams whose quality is nowhere near ours (or their wage bills). This is after spending more on recruitment than 99% of clubs out there.
At what point is it ok to start having some expectations? How much worse should Ole’s record be than Mourinho before we are allowed to ask some questions?
Love you too el3melI swear you have posted this kind of threads ton of times. You hate the forum so much but you still log in continuously which I found hilarious.
Ironically we do better against the better teams than we do against the low-end mid table teams who tend to play the low-block.Do you really believe this?
Do you not place any context on fixtures? They've played Liverpool and Chelsea away, the hardest team we've played is West Ham away.
We lost to Young Boys, they lost to PSG.
If we're dropping so many points against mid tableoutfits, it's a leap of faith to suggest we'll do better in the tough games.
It's that simple really.
It's not just results, it's the totally disjointed play. We've done well to scrape a couple of last min wins too.
You really believed that sir? 3 years to steady the ship, which part of our general play is deemed as success? The fans are right to get restless. We going quickly into liverpool of the 2000s. We celebrating draws at home, bottling at key moments, same mistakes again and again. No other big club will tolerate this for this long. The owners did their part, its the players and managers turn now. If anything the fans are too forgiving.People just want instant fixes/success. This season could turn out to be a success, but if seemingly the majority on here controlled the club we'd never get the chance to play it out.
We have mostly improved through spending a lot of money. Our actual football really hasn't improved.We've improved hugely since Ole came in. We are currently experiencing a bit of a tough spell where the direction isn't certain.
Do you not remember the FA cup semi final and the Europa Final?Lately without even 10 games played yet (In the PL), there is so much negativity and pessimism on the forum?
Like it's almost as if you'd think we're in a relegation battle, even after finishing 2nd last year, and yes I've heard all the excuses as to why we finished 2nd and why it was nothing to do with Ole or the players and in fact more to do with the teams around us. I mean we deserve some credit can't make up excuses for every single positive thing that United do. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of talk and dislike towards the manager. Now more than ever it seems as I'm perplexed as to why? Why now of all times, why right this moment?
We're not in free fall by any means and yet the feeling around the fans on here anyway is that we're in some sort of disaster mode. Even news that Phelan, Carrick, McKenna are getting new contracts somehow comes back to Ole and fake, patronising praise for the club.
The season has just begun and I'll say it again, people are getting really upset to the point where from the outside looking in, looking at people's reactions to news, it seems as though we're flirting with the bottom 3.
It's the international break too, which doesn't help things either.
So by the end of November after this run again Leicester, Liverpool, Spurs, City, Chelsea, Arsenal do you expect us to be level on ponts with City stillIronically we do better against the better teams than we do against the low-end mid table teams who tend to play the low-block.
I have a problem with this too. Lots of fans want to take out a Fred or McT for Pogba or Matic and were happy to bin off James not releasing then that we would have almost fully transitioned into a team that totally stands off and that’s what hurts us more often than anything else. I genuinely think if McT and Cavani were fit from the start of this season we’d have battled and won some of those draws and drawn the defeats.This is something i have noticed as well and it has annoyed me to no end. Villa and Everton did not give us so much trouble because they were better than us, they gave us trouble because everyone put in a shift and got stuck in there. Meanwhile we strolled around and looked so fecking pedestrian both on and off the ball
How much harrying have you seen McT do? Loving mediocre players and depending on them was one of the reasons we were absolutely awful earlier.I have a problem with this too. Lots of fans want to take out a Fred or McT for Pogba or Matic and were happy to bin off James not releasing then that we would have almost fully transitioned into a team that totally stands off and that’s what hurts us more often than anything else. I genuinely think if McT and Cavani were fit from the start of this season we’d have battled and won some of those draws and drawn the defeats.
We are just way too passive all around the pitch in our individual battles and we let teams have their way with us physically and tactically and hope our skill is enough to win through. It’s not. Young boys destroyed us because they were first to everything and got into our faces once AWB went off. They forced us to make mistakes. You could maybe use fitness as an excuse but not after this international break. No more forwards walking around! Defend and attack as a unit and we should do a lot better.
I remember in the 2000s my mate, who is a big Liverpool fan, would celebrate a player having a special moment (in a season where they would then finish 6th) and I used to mock him that big players shouldn't survive on moments. Proper players perform and run games across an entire season. We are now the side that survives on moments, its depressing.You really believed that sir? 3 years to steady the ship, which part of our general play is deemed as success? The fans are right to get restless. We going quickly into liverpool of the 2000s. We celebrating draws at home, bottling at key moments, same mistakes again and again. No other big club will tolerate this for this long. The owners did their part, its the players and managers turn now. If anything the fans are too forgiving.
Close thread.Because it’s not just 7 games in, it’s years.
Yeah because we are in the same boat as City? They are the champions and just outplayed one of the best teams in Europe on their own turf. We are struggling against Young Boys and Villareal at home.Because nothing is decided in October. There's every chance we can have a great season.
Is Pep shit, are city is crisis? Because we've had the exact same start as they have.
I would say the main reason we were awful earlier was because we pissed loads of money up against the wall on flair/fair weather players that couldn’t take us back to where we needed to be. Their mentality wasn’t right for us. Which players have we signed who were win at all costs on the pitch who didn’t work out? All our best signings were were scrappy and hardworking with a ruthless streak. Zlatan, Cavani, Herrera, Bruno, Maguire. Talented but not hardworking off the ball? Lukaku, Miki, Di Maria, Martial? Pogba? The work rate doesn’t tally with the amount of influence some of them were signed to have. That doesn’t mean they aren’t skilful and lovely to watch but this is a very scrappy physical league and our scouting was off target far too often. We still need a lot more workrate and aggression in this squad. Did Cavani coming alive last season not show anyone anything? We were sleepwalking through the season until he starting pressing and making aggressive runs up top. Now we are sleepwalking againHow much harrying have you seen McT do? Loving mediocre players and depending on them was one of the reasons we were absolutely awful earlier.
Maybe it's not me who has the rose tinted glasses.'Why so many knee-jerk reactions and negativity 7 games in?'
First of all, they are not knee-jerk reactions.
Even the most dyed in the wool reds, are starting to see that we are going nowhere with the club legend in the hot seat.
Fantastic player? Yes.
Fantastic manager? Far from it.
You have to remember who we are, and why our standards are so high:
- we were the 1st English team to win the European Cup
- we were the 1st English team to win it in it's Champions League format
- we were the 1st (and only) English team to win the most difficult Treble there is in English football (thanks Ole )
- we were the 1st English team to win the Premier League
- we were the 1st English team to win the Club World Cup
...our history shows that we have always strove to be the best.
Take off your rose-tinted glasses, and see our situation how it actually is:
We have a manager who is out of his depth, and who has taken us as far as he can.
The rebuild has now happened. Now it's time to let Ole show what he's worth.I am not even sure if the OP is kidding or not, it is a totally wrong perspective, we may be 7 games this season but 3 seasons+ of dull shit as well and with arguably the strongest and title challenging squad, we should display much better cohesion, pattern of play and fecking results. Not even mentioning how lucky we got in some of those games and that we are already out of a cup.
Seems like people will never learn, we should be aiming for absolute top not to wander around top4 with a subpar management, this overpositivity will kill us because we will let average manager/coaches waste our squads potential and not win anything because of sheer complacancy and camaraderie. Let's see after the 7 games, if we fail to deliver and management is still here, it's time to think about there is some kind of sabotage within our club happening otherwise you can't explain such incompetence and how slowly we are moving ahead with our decisions..
This is it. They think a new season is a cure all and everyone is mental for being angry over a blip, but it's not a blip.It's like Ole fans don't even comprehend why and how long he's been a mediocre/bad manager for.
OK Agent SmithYou hear that, Mr. UnitedSofa?
That's the sound of inevitability.
Don't agree with any of this. The bolded part of we are not very good anymore is a fantasy. Any team with De Gea, Varane, Shaw, Bruno, Pogba, Ronaldo etc should be challenging for major honours. Ole has been backed and if he doesn't deliver a major piece of silverware he will have run out of time and excuses.Maybe it's not me who has the rose tinted glasses.
We were this, we were that, we were this, etc etc. Yes we were that. We aren't that anymore.
Keep sounding off about history and you'll start sounding like a Liverpool fan. The one thing that a lot of other fans teased Liverpool fans for. Gloating about how good they USED to be.
Simply put. We are not that good anymore. It will take time to get good again and we are on the right path, it's simply not as bad as people think.
The rebuild has now happened. Now it's time to let Ole show what he's worth.
He now has his team and his players. Barring a DM of course.
Should we see more from him, of course we should have but if you get rid now you start all over again, rinse and repeat and we'll never improve how you want it. Unless you want a quick hit 1-2 and then back down again.
It's like you want top but don't want the patience to wait for it.
Yet they drew with Soton... You can only play what's in front of youCity have played Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool and PSG in their opening 10 games to be fair.
We've played Young Boys, Newcastle, Villa, Leeds, Everton..
So compared to LVG Jose the football is better I will give you that, but with Ole at the helm when we go into games against teams we should be beating we struggle. Villa outplayed us for virtually the whole game, against Everton we started well first half first 20 odd minutes I genuinely thought we will win, but as happens with Ole he decides to make subs when we’re 1 nil up, and we end up luckily drawing.right back at ya!
You added McT in your original post claiming if he was fit (along with Cavani) earlier then we would have won more. I never pointed out Cavani as the oddity in that post as he is truly class and one of the best in what he does.I would say the main reason we were awful earlier was because we pissed loads of money up against the wall on flair/fair weather players that couldn’t take us back to where we needed to be. Their mentality wasn’t right for us. Which players have we signed who were win at all costs on the pitch who didn’t work out? All our best signings were were scrappy and hardworking with a ruthless streak. Zlatan, Cavani, Herrera, Bruno, Maguire. Talented but not hardworking off the ball? Lukaku, Miki, Di Maria, Martial? Pogba? The work rate doesn’t tally with the amount of influence some of them were signed to have. That doesn’t mean they aren’t skilful and lovely to watch but this is a very scrappy physical league and our scouting was off target far too often. We still need a lot more workrate and aggression in this squad. Did Cavani coming alive last season not show anyone anything? We were sleepwalking through the season until he starting pressing and making aggressive runs up top. Now we are sleepwalking again
We have great players, world class players even, but are we a good team at the moment. No we are not. That's what everyone is upset about. However, I can see Ole getting the team playing well and us becoming good again. But you can't say that we're a good team by any stretch of the imagination.Don't agree with any of this. The bolded part of we are not very good anymore is a fantasy. Any team with De Gea, Varane, Shaw, Bruno, Pogba, Ronaldo etc should be challenging for major honours. Ole has been backed and if he doesn't deliver a major piece of silverware he will have run out of time and excuses.
Pretty much my feelings on the matter.I am not feeling as negative as the majority it seems, however I would add that it's not just 7 games. I think it's the context of those games in terms of who we played and the performance levels. That creates a definite sense of dread ahead of a highly demanding set of fixtures. If we don't improve substantially over the coming weeks we could be out of the game and that is a hugely disappointing prospect.
I agree on Fred and McT. Been saying it myself since McFred became a thing. I like Fred because he gets about and doesn’t stop and he doesn’t hide. I’d like a few more scrappy players like that. I must have slightly missed your point but I was saying somewhere earlier that last season only really Fred Bruno Cavani and McT pressed and it was enough to get us through most games until the wheels came off at the end of the season. This season it’s only been Fred and Bruno and most teams have been way too comfortable against us.You added McT in your original post claiming if he was fit (along with Cavani) earlier then we would have won more. I never pointed out Cavani as the oddity in that post as he is truly class and one of the best in what he does.
I simply asked what have you seen in McT to lump him with Cavani (or for that matter Zlatan, Herrera, etc who range from truly elite to very good). This idea that McT is some sort of fighter really comes with no proof. When has he really turned up when we needed to dominate the midfield? When has his interceptions and tackles made you realize he is truly bossing his opponent. When has his passing unlocked low blocks and compact teams?
All he does very well is hide and then when Fred invariably goofs up, many on here think McT is better (when in fact he is worse than Fred who at least has the engine).
A bit of context on that guy: He started as a blogger on football tactics and is a co-founder of spielverlagerung.de. You can maybe compare him with Michael Cox (zonalmarking) in that regard. But while the latter went on to become a full-time journalist, Maric found his way into professional football. First contact was made by Thomas Tuchel, who got the guys from spielverlagerung.de to deliver some analysis input for him while he was coaching Mainz. So today he is working as a tactical analyst/assistant coach for Rose in Dortmund.
- Support Ole not with players, but with experts like Rene Maric, he is a genius and he is an important part of Roses success. If you can not get the manager, get his stuff. Ole needs support to fix his flaws.
It's going to be negative as he's created a thread after we've lost or drawn too many games after finishing well last season and signing Sancho, Ronaldo and Varane over the summer...Cue incoming negativity and knee jerk entitled opinions...
Firstly you’re aware that Pogba didn’t even start one of the games that poster mentioned ? Cavani and McT did and we were out played and out pressed by EvertonI have a problem with this too. Lots of fans want to take out a Fred or McT for Pogba or Matic and were happy to bin off James not releasing then that we would have almost fully transitioned into a team that totally stands off and that’s what hurts us more often than anything else. I genuinely think if McT and Cavani were fit from the start of this season we’d have battled and won some of those draws and drawn the defeats.
We are just way too passive all around the pitch in our individual battles and we let teams have their way with us physically and tactically and hope our skill is enough to win through. It’s not. Young boys destroyed us because they were first to everything and got into our faces once AWB went off. They forced us to make mistakes. You could maybe use fitness as an excuse but not after this international break. No more forwards walking around! Defend and attack as a unit and we should do a lot better.
I agree we are not a good team, we have no game plan, the tactics are always the same. The football is dreadful. So if we have great players, and yet the team still performs below par, then that is on the coaching and the motivation of the players. When you say it isnt as bad as it seems, is that because we have become used to being a top 4 team and not actually winning anything. This team will not win any major trophy under Ole, and I say that because of the evidence presented in front of me for the last 3 years, lack of coaching, lack of game plan, weak mentality.We have great players, world class players even, but are we a good team at the moment. No we are not. That's what everyone is upset about. However, I can see Ole getting the team playing well and us becoming good again. But you can't say that we're a good team by any stretch of the imagination.
We will come good, and all this doom and gloom isn't as bad as it may seem. We'll get there, just requires patience.
His articles are still available on spielverlagerung.de and some make for interesting (if quite technical) reading:A bit of context on that guy: He started as a blogger on football tactics and is a co-founder of spielverlagerung.de. You can maybe compare him with Michael Cox (zonalmarking) in that regard. But while the latter went on to become a full-time journalist, Maric found his way into professional football. First contact was made by Thomas Tuchel, who got the guys from spielverlagerung.de to deliver some analysis input for him while he was coaching Mainz. So today he is working as a tactical analyst/assistant coach for Rose in Dortmund.