Football, skin color and perception

Cloud7

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Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.
Well it didn’t take long for a live one to show up.

I’ll humor you though to hear what the difficult questions you want to ask are and exactly what discussion is it that you want to open up.

1) Rio Ferdinand

2) John Obi Mikel

3) Viera

4) Fernandinho

5) Kompany

And that’s just off the top of my head from teams immediately around us.
 

JPRouve

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He is named Makélélé.
 

Conor

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Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.
I'm not sure you have the mental capacity to identify intelligence, maybe that's the issue here.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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Well it didn’t take long for a live one to show up.

I’ll humor you though to hear what the difficult questions you want to ask are and exactly what discussion is it that you want to open up.

1) Rio Ferdinand

2) John Obi Mikel

3) Viera

4) Fernandinho

5) Kompany

And that’s just off the top of my head from teams immediately around us.
Shouldn’t even humour him. Arsenal fan or not, he’s part of the Caf community & these same posts come up whenever the issue of racism is discussed.

We should look at confronting the biases in the United fanbase/this forum before we try righting the wrongs of the world.
 

Cloud7

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Shouldn’t even humour him. Arsenal fan or not, he’s part of the Caf community & these same posts come up whenever the issue of racism is discussed.

We should look at confronting the biases in the United fanbase/this forum before we try righting the wrongs of the world.
I’m a United fan not an Arsenal fan. I know all too well the direction these discussions usually go which is why I said we got a live one early. It was clearly a disgusting post.

My response will have one of two outcomes. Either this person comes to terms with the biases that they held (unlikely) or they end up getting enough rope to hang themselves and there’s one less idiot on the site (more likely).
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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Maguire getting the captaincy surely pertains to this at some level. At least in terms of perception being far from reality.
Maguire became captain because he usually stayed fit, until this season and one of the first names on the team sheet. It could have been either him or de Gea but considering that de Gea has been passed on by multiple managers, it either means he doesn't have the leadership skill or he doesn't want it because he is a shy introvert like Scholes.
 

KirkDuyt

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Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.
:lol:

Wait, my screen is broken it won't load the white text.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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I’m a United fan not an Arsenal fan. I know all too well the direction these discussions usually go which is why I said we got a live one early. It was clearly a disgusting post.

My response will have one of two outcomes. Either this person comes to terms with the biases that they held (unlikely) or they end up getting enough rope to hang themselves and there’s one less idiot on the site (more likely).
I meant the poster was an Arsenal fan but still part of this forum so it’s a bad look regardless.
 

Jeppers7

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My perception is that white players, most often, are criticised for their performance and recognised for their attributes.
Black players, in my perception, are often criticised for their attitude and mentality and often expected to have attributes that they don’t possess.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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With regards to the study, I think it shows lack of knowledge of the players on part of the commentators that manifests as racial bias. If this was England vs France, the commentator probably knows most of the players and has a good level of knowledge on them to do a fair analysis. The broadcasters need to hire commentators for games that follow the national teams because your average studio pundit barely ever watches Polish or Senegalese players unless they are at one of the main European clubs.
 

steffyr2

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I always thought the way Rio was treated by the British press was terrible -- compare to the way the sainted John Terry was treated.
 

JPRouve

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With regards to the study, I think it shows lack of knowledge of the players on part of the commentators that manifests as racial bias. If this was England vs France, the commentator probably knows most of the players and has a good level of knowledge on them to do a fair analysis. The broadcasters need to hire commentators for games that follow the national teams because your average studio pundit barely ever watches Polish or Senegalese players unless they are at one of the main European clubs.
Not really, it is done to well known players from France and England, players that the commentators see every weeks. It's a bias that exists since ever and isn't actually just limited to football, in the NFL there is a bit of a joke about the idea that every white WR is slow but scrappy, it was initially an actual tendency, commentators used to constantly say it regardless of actually Combine stats that would show that someone is a great athlete.
 

Relevant

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Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.
Doesn't this post alone strongly suggest there is unconscious bias at the very least?

I always thought the way Rio was treated by the British press was terrible -- compare to the way the sainted John Terry was treated.
And this post highlights the epitome of that bias in action.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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Not really, it is done to well known players from France and England, players that the commentators see every weeks. It's a bias that exists since ever and isn't actually just limited to football, in the NFL there is a bit of a joke about the idea that every white WR is slow but scrappy, it was initially an actual tendency, commentators used to constantly say it regardless of actually Combine stats that would show that someone is a great athlete.
Its not like any of the players playing for England or France, other than the center backs are slow. They are all elite level athletes even if the commentators feel the need to stress the point about black players. Luke Shaw is about as fast and physical as Kyle Walker is as the opposite wing back.

It is indeed a lot more prevalent in the NFL and NBA, although players like Kelce, Mahomes, LeBron etc are changing the narrative.
 

Champ

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Isn't physicality a tangible thing, as in you can clearly see and sense that someone is big and strong?
In which case the case study in the link is garbage, as you are taking the optical attributes away and making every player a 2d sprite.

Its obvious to anyone that people are going to be more split as to whose the more athletic when every single player is the same.

What's not to say that the Senegalese players were not more athletic in build than some of the Polish players??

I admit that there is a definite bias with people thinking about black players, but also this is prevalent with Asian players (run lots), Latino players (temperamental), players from a poor white background (play football from the streets), etc

Its not just a 'black' issue or a gender issue, it's a stereotype issue amongst all races, creeds and backgrounds.
 

JPRouve

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Its not like any of the players playing for England or France, other than the center backs are slow. They are all elite level athletes even if the commentators feel the need to stress the point about black players. Luke Shaw is about as fast and physical as Kyle Walker is as the opposite wing back.

It is indeed a lot more prevalent in the NFL and NBA, although players like Kelce, Mahomes, LeBron etc are changing the narrative.
The white player is more likely to be linked with mental abilities, he is smart, he is a leader or has character. This applies in Football and most sports, what is stressed depends on the color of your skin which is the point made. It doesn't depend on whether you are well known or not.
 

Infra-red

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Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.
I bet that your parents change the subject when their friends ask about you.
 

NasirTimothy

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Firstly, feck you. ‘Difficult questions’. Secondly, feck you. ‘Can you name 5 intelligent black players’. Oh yea & thirdly, go feck yourself.
Thank you for that entirely appropriate response to a question of stunning idiocy.
 

oates

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Dear oh dear.
 

Cascarino

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This has always been a problem, interesting to see the way they approached it. Insidiously, this kind of thing is rife in youth coaching.

Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.
I know the guy is banned, but it's funny how much this question reveals the crux of the issue. There are so many intelligent black players that it's just a ridiculous question, but someone with such blindspots won't realise they're judging not on their on pitch performance but their race. A self fulfilling prophecy.

Isn't physicality a tangible thing, as in you can clearly see and sense that someone is big and strong?
In which case the case study in the link is garbage, as you are taking the optical attributes away and making every player a 2d sprite.

Its obvious to anyone that people are going to be more split as to whose the more athletic when every single player is the same.

What's not to say that the Senegalese players were not more athletic in build than some of the Polish players??

I admit that there is a definite bias with people thinking about black players, but also this is prevalent with Asian players (run lots), Latino players (temperamental), players from a poor white background (play football from the streets), etc

Its not just a 'black' issue or a gender issue, it's a stereotype issue amongst all races, creeds and backgrounds.
The opposite. A lot of the time people will naturally perceive the black player as more athletic, even if there's no significant disparity in their builds.
It's part of why the study is so effective

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...stronger-than-white-men-even-when-theyre-not/


That study is junk, to put it politely. Not saying its wrong but it doesn't prove anything.

People do focus in on stereotypes but they are not all race based. English players are uncultured thugs, Spaniards are small and tricky, South Americans dive, and yes, African players are athletic. In many cases those things are true and the problem comes from people not being able to see beyond that and defining those players based on that one factor. And again, that's not all race based, though they do probably have it worse. Pogba might be strong but he's also technically brilliant. Neymar might be a diving little prick but he's a wonderful player. Busquets is small and tricky but also tenacious and aggressive. Maguire might be an uncultured thug but...well there are limits.
He's 6"2!
 

Champ

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This has always been a problem, interesting to see the way they approached it. Insidiously, this kind of thing is rife in youth coaching.



I know the guy is banned, but it's funny how much this question reveals the crux of the issue. There are so many intelligent black players that it's just a ridiculous question, but someone with such blindspots won't realise they're judging not on their on pitch performance but their race. A self fulfilling prophecy.



The opposite. A lot of the time people will naturally perceive the black player as more athletic, even if there's no significant disparity in their builds.
It's part of why the study is so effective

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...stronger-than-white-men-even-when-theyre-not/




He's 6"2!
Could this not have something to do with the human brain perceiving saturated colours to be bigger??

Talking purely objectional here, I don't want to offend anyone, but take a dark object next to a pale object, that dark object will look bigger,
However you put a pure black object next to a pure white and the white will look bigger.
 

Zlatattack

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I said this years ago. It'd be interesting to do an analysis on the race of players who get refered to as a "beast".
 

Raoul

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You'll also very commonly see black players get compared to other black players, even when their playstyles often are nothing alike (I've seen Pogba compared to Yaya Toure several times, for instance, which is crazy).
It was Thierry Henry who called Pogba a cross between Patrick Viera and YaYa Toure.
 

Cascarino

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Could this not have something to do with the human brain perceiving saturated colours to be bigger??

Talking purely objectional here, I don't want to offend anyone, but take a dark object next to a pale object, that dark object will look bigger,
However you put a pure black object next to a pure white and the white will look bigger.
I'm not actually aware of the science behind it, other than black people also do the same! (As I thought it might have something to do with who you see more of growing up or something etc but clearly that isn't the case).
 

Andy_Cole

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This has always been a problem, interesting to see the way they approached it. Insidiously, this kind of thing is rife in youth coaching.



I know the guy is banned, but it's funny how much this question reveals the crux of the issue. There are so many intelligent black players that it's just a ridiculous question, but someone with such blindspots won't realise they're judging not on their on pitch performance but their race. A self fulfilling prophecy.
Ah he's banned - I wanted to get the popcorn out and see his reply.
 

Champ

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I'm not actually aware of the science behind it, other than black people also do the same! (As I thought it might have something to do with who you see more of growing up or something etc but clearly that isn't the case).
Yeah, it's the way the human brain perceives colour, it transcends race.

I've just watched the highlights from the Poland Senegal game that the article uses, I have to say that Poland are wearing bright white shirts and Red socks, but majority of the Polish team are pale in skin tone meaning you see the shirt but not necessarily the player, whereas the Senegalese are wearing bright green shirts and shorts, and are of darker skin tone and so stand out more.

Not saying this is definitely what's happening here, there is for sure a stereotype type of different races that evidently people may revert to without realising, but there are for sure deeper aspects at play with regards to the science behind it.
 

tomaldinho1

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Ah he's banned - I wanted to get the popcorn out and see his reply.
Some things are worth seeing the meltdown/fallout from but racism isn’t one of them. Perma ban and pity them as that poster must have an IQ of about 50.
 

AllGoodNamesRGone

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Some things are worth seeing the meltdown/fallout from but racism isn’t one of them. Perma ban and pity them as that poster must have an IQ of about 50.
Actually staggering someone could be stupid enough to have typed that post out and not thought “hang on, this is mind numbingly stupid levels of racism, I should delete and reconsider my life”. But nope, instead they post it and end up looking like a scumbag
 

tjb

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Fecking hell.

Depressing that this is from an Arsenal fan as well. Imagine thinking that having watched a team with Henry, Vieira, Gilberto, Ashley Cole and Sol Campbell in it... surely the perfect example of how biases disrupt seeing what is clearly there in front of you.
Even if the modern game. Neymar, Varane, Van Dijk, Mane, Kante, Fernandinho,Fabinho. The list goes on. People don't attribute talents like anticipation marking, knowing the angles of tackling or even the creativity and invention it takes to create chances out of nowhere as intelligence. More than just race, its almost like specific roles ( deep lying playmaker or no.10) are singularly classified as creative, ad despite the level consistent creativity and great impactful decision making made by players in other roles, like Henry, Drogba, Rio; the players described as intelligent perform certain specific tasks ( Xavi, Xabi Alonso Modric,Pirlo). It's why they are given managerial opportunities more quickly, which to me is a bit unfair. For example, people will look at Carrick or Scholes and say they would be fantastic managers. Xavi is literally getting the Baraca job, Pirlo got the Juve one last year.
 

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Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.

****Modmin note: this has been dealt with, thanks, no need to report it now (see line through the poster's name)****
Without ‘intelligent black players’ your club would have considerably less trophies, put it that way.
 

JPRouve

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It was Thierry Henry who called Pogba a cross between Patrick Viera and YaYa Toure.
And Vieira in an interview with Pogba was comparing himself with Pogba. That bias, that failure to look at things as they actually are applies to everyone, someone like Pogba is a typical example he isn't what he looks like. It took me a long time to realize that Zapata was way more than a strong striker, his decision making is quite impressive.
 

GatoLoco

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Kante is one of the most intelligent players out there and all the credit goes to his ability to cover ground. He’s not superman, the reason he does what he does is more in his head than his legs.
I get that he's intelligent, he has to be to stand out the way he does but what's the point in saying he is not superman when objectively speaking he clearly is the closest to being one in terms of physicality?

https://www.90min.com/posts/6299626...ance-during-the-2018-19-premier-league-season

https://www.football.london/chelsea-fc/players/terry-kante-ballon-dor-claim-21308479

“N’Golo still has so much to give over the next few years. He’s one of the fittest players I’ve come across as well.

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation...l-pogba-marvels-at-ngolo-kantes-fifteen-lungs
 

2mufc0

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Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.

****Modmin note: this has been dealt with, thanks, no need to report it now (see line through the poster's name)****
Shame your father didn't pull out.