Football, skin color and perception

[giorno]

So i came across this article

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/soccer-looks-different-when-you-cant-see-whos-playing/

Thoughts?

 

[NotThatSoph]

I think this is pretty clearly true, and satirized very well in the following Key and Peel sketch (about NFL but the same thing happens there as well):


There has been talks about this several times in threads about Pogba, for instance. While Pogba is a strong player, it's very clearly not even close to his biggest strength as a footballer. Yet, when people point out that when his physicality is being put forward as a main attribute this might be a specific example of this general pattern, several people will freak out and get angry about people bringing up race or they interpret it as a charge of malicious racism. You'll also very commonly see black players get compared to other black players, even when their playstyles often are nothing alike (I've seen Pogba compared to Yaya Toure several times, for instance, which is crazy).

It's a very important topic, I think, and very interesting to see people actually studying this.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think this is pretty clearly true, and satirized very well in the following Key and Peel sketch (about NFL but the same thing happens there as well):


There has been talks about this several times in threads about Pogba, for instance. While Pogba is a strong player, it's very clearly not even close to his biggest strength as a footballer. Yet, when people point out that when his physicality is being put forward as a main attribute this might be a specific example of this general pattern, several people will freak out and get angry about people bringing up race or they interpret it as a charge of malicious racism. You'll also very commonly see black players get compared to other black players, even when their playstyles often are nothing alike (I've seen Pogba compared to Yaya Toure several times, for instance, which is crazy).

It's a very important topic, I think.

But physicality is one of Pogba’s main assets. And that’s picking from a depressingly short list.

 

[hobbers]

Looks like a worthless study to be honest. 100 respondents. Comical p values. Only shown clips not the full game. Only question that had responses that supported the hypothesis was the one on athleticism. The physicality, tactics and technical ability were all consistent between render and live.

 

[noodlehair]

But physicality is one of Pogba’s main assets. And that’s picking from a depressingly short list.

He's also very good at having silly hair

 

[V.O.]

There has been talks about this several times in threads about Pogba, for instance. While Pogba is a strong player, it's very clearly not even close to his biggest strength as a footballer. Yet, when people point out that when his physicality is being put forward as a main attribute this might be a specific example of this general pattern, several people will freak out and get angry about people bringing up race or they interpret it as a charge of malicious racism. You'll also very commonly see black players get compared to other black players, even when their playstyles often are nothing alike (I've seen Pogba compared to Yaya Toure several times, for instance, which is crazy).

Yeah, Pogba's most important attributes would probably be his technique, passing range and dribbling skill. There are also many, many other central midfielders with very good technique, passing range and dribbling skill. How many of those are 6'3" and strong enough to hold off a pressing player with one arm while they take as long as they fancy to wait for a pass to open up?

 

[NotThatSoph]

Yeah, Pogba's most important attributes would probably be his technique, passing range and dribbling skill. There are also many, many other central midfielders with very good technique, passing range and dribbling skill. How many of those are 6'3" and strong enough to hold off a pressing player with one arm while they take as long as they fancy to wait for a pass to open up?

I'm not saying that Pogba isn't impressive physically, I specifically said that he is, but as you agree it's not his main attribute. I'd also add vision and creativity as factors of Pogba's game that are more important than his height and strength. He would still be a top player if he was smaller. There's nothing wrong with acknowleding his physicality, but when it gets continously brought up over his more important attributes then something feels off.

However, Pogba was just meant as an example and an anecdote. It's perfectly possible to disagree with that and still see the wider trend.

 

[NasirTimothy]

So i came across this article

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/soccer-looks-different-when-you-cant-see-whos-playing/

Thoughts?

Been banging on about this for years. Black players are often described using terms like ‘pace’ and ‘power’ and are rarely given credit for having intelligence.

 

[Red_toad]

I'm not saying that Pogba isn't impressive physically, I specifically said that he is, but as you agree it's not his main attribute. I'd also add vision and creativity as factors of Pogba's game that are more important than his height and strength. He would still be a top player if he was smaller. There's nothing wrong with acknowleding his physicality, but when it gets continously brought up over his more important attributes then something feels off.

However, Pogba was just meant as an example and an anecdote. It's perfectly possible to disagree with that and still see the wider trend.

I’d disagree Pogba is widely acknowledged as a very skilful player, his athleticism is all part of the player. No idea why you need to make a thread about something that just seems to be a pontless whinge.

 

[Cheimoon]

I’d disagree Pogba is widely acknowledged as a very skilful player, his athleticism is all part of the player. No idea why you need to make a thread about something that just seems to be a pontless whinge.

She didn't make the thread and specified that Pogba is just one example.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Park, Coleman, Fletcher McGinn are also players that are labeled 'hard working' or all about 'graft' and 'do the basics right'.

Truth is they all were/are very good and technically footballers but if they were south American/Mediterranean/African would probably be labeled as skilled players. Works both ways.

 

[Conor]

I think Pogba is one of the worst examples to use for this, his passing and skill are constantly mentioned, and his size and strength on the ball are basically his defining/differentiating characteristics(given the type of player he is), so it's not surprising that they are talked about as much as they are, similar to Yaya Toure. There are plenty of skillful midfielders with great passing range, but you can probably count on 1 hand the amount that also have the size and physical strength of Pogba. Obviously, this stereotyping does happen a lot, though. The whole notion of football commentary is based around stereotyping to some degree, as most of the people doing it are idiots.

 

[Tarrou]

I never thought Pogba was that strong, or at least not strong enough for it to be considered one of his best attributes

For me McTominay is stronger on the ball

 

[MiracleInMadrid]

I think Pogba is one of the worst examples to use for this, his passing and skill are constantly mentioned, and his size and strength on the ball are basically his defining/differentiating characteristics(given the type of player he is), so it's not surprising that they are talked about as much as they are, similar to Yaya Toure. There are plenty of skillful midfielders with great passing range, but you can probably count on 1 hand the amount that also have the size and physical strength of Pogba. Obviously, this stereotyping does happen a lot, though. The whole notion of football commentary is based around stereotyping to some degree, as most of the people doing it are idiots.

Totallly agree about Pogba. It is almost exclusively his abilities on the ball that is talked about and highlighted about him. But I can only speak of the case among commentators from Danish broadcasters.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I never thought Pogba was that strong, or at least not strong enough for it to be considered one of his best attributes

For me McTominay is stronger on the ball

McTominay is another midfielder correctly known for his physicality.

Pogba is 6’ 3” and powerfully built. It’s an unusual physique for a CM. If anything it would be weird if his physicality wasn’t repeatedly mentioned.

I do think the OP is onto something though. Where I notice it most is how much more often black players get stick for poor decision making or lack of intelligence. I don’t think you’re as likely to hear those criticisms used about white players.

 

[OL29]

But physicality is one of Pogba’s main assets. And that’s picking from a depressingly short list.

It’s amazing that you see a thread about unconscious bias and use it as an opportunity to throw a dig at Pogba in the second post.

On topic, there’s been a few studies backing this up and I think it’s pretty evident listening to commentary and even reading football forums.

The study also found that 63.33% of criticism from commentators in regards to the intelligence of a player is aimed at those with darker skin, while the figure for quality is 67.57%.

https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...ls-racial-bias-in-english-football-commentary

It goes beyond football intelligence and physicality, black players are also more likely to be accused of having a poor attitude imo.Craig Ramage was an extreme example but I don’t think this line of thinking is uncommon amongst football fans and pundits.

When I look over and look at certain players, their body language, their stance, the way they act, you just feel, hold on a minute, he needs pulling down a peg or two.
So I’d probably say that about all the young black lads, all the young advice if they wanted it, that, you know, it’s about, when you are struggling for form, you are going through a sticky patch, it’s about going back to basics, working hard, and doing the right things.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-young-black-lads-bbc-radio-a9338636.html?amp

 

[pacifictheme]

I think this is pretty clearly true, and satirized very well in the following Key and Peel sketch (about NFL but the same thing happens there as well):


There has been talks about this several times in threads about Pogba, for instance. While Pogba is a strong player, it's very clearly not even close to his biggest strength as a footballer. Yet, when people point out that when his physicality is being put forward as a main attribute this might be a specific example of this general pattern, several people will freak out and get angry about people bringing up race or they interpret it as a charge of malicious racism. You'll also very commonly see black players get compared to other black players, even when their playstyles often are nothing alike (I've seen Pogba compared to Yaya Toure several times, for instance, which is crazy).

It's a very important topic, I think, and very interesting to see people actually studying this.

I wish pogba was like yaya toure.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s amazing that you see a thread about unconscious bias and use it as an opportunity to throw a dig at Pogba in the second post.

On topic, there’s been a few studies backing this up and I think it’s pretty evident listening to commentary and even reading football forums.




https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...ls-racial-bias-in-english-football-commentary

It goes beyond football intelligence and physicality, black players are also more likely to be accused of having a poor attitude imo.Craig Ramage was an extreme example but I don’t think this line of thinking is uncommon amongst football fans and pundits.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news/craig-ramage-racist-derby-county-football-young-black-lads-bbc-radio-a9338636.html?amp

Believe me, criticising Pogba doesn’t require any bias, unconscious or otherwise. All that’s needed is a pair of functional eyes.

See my most recent post for my thoughts on the issue in general.

 

[90 + 5min]

Looks like a worthless study to be honest. 100 respondents. Comical p values. Only shown clips not the full game. Only question that had responses that supported the hypothesis was the one on athleticism. The physicality, tactics and technical ability were all consistent between render and live.

I wouldn't say it was worthless. Study is always good from educational point of view. If they could do this study 100 times over again with different teams then we could have better facts. But to use one game and taking out things out of its context to support own hypothesis is wrong. It was almost like they were searching for one little thing to say "there it is".

All humans are different and have different attributes.

 

[Born2Lose]

More woke opium of the masses

 

[11101]

That study is junk, to put it politely. Not saying its wrong but it doesn't prove anything.

People do focus in on stereotypes but they are not all race based. English players are uncultured thugs, Spaniards are small and tricky, South Americans dive, and yes, African players are athletic. In many cases those things are true and the problem comes from people not being able to see beyond that and defining those players based on that one factor. And again, that's not all race based, though they do probably have it worse. Pogba might be strong but he's also technically brilliant. Neymar might be a diving little prick but he's a wonderful player. Busquets is small and tricky but also tenacious and aggressive. Maguire might be an uncultured thug but...well there are limits.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I remember there was an article(s) about this maybe last year discussed on here?

Focus was on the laziness of commentators reverting to stereotypes. Usually grouping Black & Slavic players together as physical and strong, usually then also adding in speed for the former and toughness for the latter.

 

[Stacks]

I think this is pretty clearly true, and satirized very well in the following Key and Peel sketch (about NFL but the same thing happens there as well):


There has been talks about this several times in threads about Pogba, for instance. While Pogba is a strong player, it's very clearly not even close to his biggest strength as a footballer. Yet, when people point out that when his physicality is being put forward as a main attribute this might be a specific example of this general pattern, several people will freak out and get angry about people bringing up race or they interpret it as a charge of malicious racism. You'll also very commonly see black players get compared to other black players, even when their playstyles often are nothing alike (I've seen Pogba compared to Yaya Toure several times, for instance, which is crazy).

It's a very important topic, I think, and very interesting to see people actually studying this.

that's standard though. Like they call Luka the next Larry bird or Shannon Sharp calls him "Baby bird." If there was a hot Chinese prospect who was giant it would be the next "Yao Ming". there's nothing in it (the comparison thing). I mean Both Pogba and Toure were giants for midfielders, both very fast and very technical. They have many similar attributes just play different. I am sure someone will call Declan Rice the next Gerrard at some point. Weren't they comparing Joe Cole to Gazza?

 

[Welsh Wonder]

Busquets is small and tricky but also tenacious and aggressive

I don't know who you meant there but it certainly isn't Busquets

 

[NoLogo]

I never thought Pogba was that strong, or at least not strong enough for it to be considered one of his best attributes

For me McTominay is stronger on the ball

Didn't have that feeling either, especially given how he gets bullied off the ball at least twice per game. He might be tall, but his balance and strength isn't all that great imo.

 

[NoLogo]

I don't know who you meant there but it certainly isn't Busquets

The only excuse is that he is Shaq, which means those pesky 6'2" of Busquets must look tiny to him.

 

[SER19]

This comes up every few months here. Like everything there are probably a small amount of examples of truth that then get extrapolated to get shoe horned into ideology. As if black players in the nfl aren't often fast. As if pogba isn't very physically strong or kante doesn't have incredible stamina. Ultimately its a pointless conversation that those who want to see something nefarious in will see it regardless of any counter argument

 

[Pexbo]

Kante is one of the most intelligent players out there and all the credit goes to his ability to cover ground. He’s not superman, the reason he does what he does is more in his head than his legs.

 

[Redlyn]

While acknowledging the overall point, I just wanted to mention that Toure is a top player with a languid style like Pogba. I don't think it's necessarily colour biased.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Maguire getting the captaincy surely pertains to this at some level. At least in terms of perception being far from reality.

 

[Vidyoyo]

As the clip above highlights, it's more of a media issue i.e, not giving credit to certain player's mental traits over physical ones, which does seem more likely to happen for Black players.

But it's also true that a lot of black players are indeed strong and fast and those are their obvious standout qualities - Traore instantly springs to mind.

So too with some white players who get highlighted for similar things when no other qualities stand out - Danny James being one who's become known as a speed merchant.

Maybe then the most problem is giving white players more of a benefit of the doubt; saying they're more intelligent than is actually warranted (a sort of inverse bias).

So yeah, I guess I'd actually like to see some research before I make an actual conclusion. I'm sure some keen PhD student could do, or has done, a critical discourse analysis of it all.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Kante is one of the most intelligent players out there and all the credit goes to his ability to cover ground. He’s not superman, the reason he does what he does is more in his head than his legs.

Kind of. Although that’s a more accurate description of Makalele, who was less of a Duracell bunny than Kante but similarly effective. And, if I remember correctly, got plenty of praise for his intelligence and discipline.

 

[jus2nang]

Been banging on about this for years. Black players are often described using terms like ‘pace’ and ‘power’ and are rarely given credit for having intelligence.

Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.

****Modmin note: this has been dealt with, thanks, no need to report it now (see line through the poster's name)****

 

[harms]

The bias is certainly there. What an interesting way to highlight it though.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.

Firstly, feck you. ‘Difficult questions’. Secondly, feck you. ‘Can you name 5 intelligent black players’. Oh yea & thirdly, go feck yourself.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.

Wow

 

[ThierryHenry]

Out of interest, can you name 5 intelligent black players?

I mean we have to ask the difficult questions first to genuinely open up the discussion.

Fecking hell.

Depressing that this is from an Arsenal fan as well. Imagine thinking that having watched a team with Henry, Vieira, Gilberto, Ashley Cole and Sol Campbell in it... surely the perfect example of how biases disrupt seeing what is clearly there in front of you.

 

[afrocentricity]

This will be interesting.... We haven't done this before...

 

[Trequarista10]

It's a very interesting subject.

One thought is that a ball winning midfielder, say Henderson or Kante, the black player is more likely to be perceived as a "machine", a physical anomaly, whereas the white player is commended for their "graft", someone who achieves the same purely by desire rather than natural endurance.

I suspect its a lot more nuanced though. Presumably there is some physical differences (not a scientist, don't know) which would lead to black players being given roles (either by selectively or naturally assuming those roles) at a young age to take advantage of that, which in turn means they get less experience playing in one of the positions that get lauded for intelligence (deep lying playmaker, number 10). However every role or position, there are multiple ways of playing it, and all rely on some combination of intelligence and physicality. Is a white goal poacher more likely to be revered for their movement than a black goal poacher, who may be seen as a run in behind pace merchant? Maybe. Or maybe I'm wrong that there is any physical difference, and only think it's a possibility because of stereotyping. I'm not sure.

Additionally there are multitudes of exceptions to the rule. So many that it's possibly not even a rule, and a pattern is only visible if you look for it. This is 8am pre-work speculative off the cuff thinking, so don't get all angsty if anything in this post is incorrect, genuinely curious what other people think.

 

[Wolf1992]

Didn't have that feeling either, especially given how he gets bullied off the ball at least twice per game. He might be tall, but his balance and strength isn't all that great imo.

He is super tall, 6"3(1.91)...his centre of gravity and balance hardly will be the best.