Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[SalfordRed18]

I really appreciate that redcafe doesn't allow posting of dead bodies or overly violent stuff. If you want to see that stuff you can easily find it out there, but I have no interest in seeing it. Some people can go overboard with gruesome videos and photos, its not a minefield I want to walk through. This place gets just the info and discussion from all of you guys/gals which is perfect.

I don't think it's a case of 'wanting' to see that stuff. It should however most definitely be seen as that's the harsh reality of war which no doubt is lost on a few on here and the wider public. No point sugar coating it or burying one's head in the sand.

 

[atkar83]

That was our thinking although we didn't take the decision lightly as there is a danger that not showing such videos makes what is going on less serious than it is.

I mean people are posting the explosions, which gives us an idea how grim it is. We can figure out on our own that lots of people are dying when they blow, we don't need to see bodies for confirmation of it. But I'm glad you guys decided to go this route

 

[Raoul]

Presumably other countries could and would also covertly fund and facilitate insurgency if/when Ukraine fell?

I think it would be much harder to do if the Russians occupy and brutally crack down on movement. The time to support Ukraine is probably now before the Russians manage to fully take over.

 

[nimic]

That was our thinking although we didn't take the decision lightly as there is a danger that not showing such videos makes what is going on less serious than it is.

It was 100% the right decision. I teach history, so it's not like I haven't seen my share of bad pictures or videos, but at least those were in some way curated, and expected. If there was a real danger of me seeing stuff I really don't want to see here, I would just have to avoid this thread completely. And that would be a shame, because it's actually a fairly good source of information and discussion, when combined with actual journalism (like the Norwegian state broadcaster NRK).

 

[Paxi]

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[Dr. Dwayne]

US did this back in the 80s Afghanistan to ward off Russia. Perhaps we go again.

Just saw a Republican Senator on PBS saying the US needs to send [more?] "small arms, ammo, anti-armor, anti-aircraft, stinger missiles", etc to Ukraine.

 

[RedRonaldo]

If Ukraine falls what does the west do? Just leave it? Declare war? Help them? What a mess. Caused by one person.

No one wants WWIII so its probably just sanctions to isolate Putin and devastate the Russian economy, maybe we will enter the cold war again.

And of course, the west would suffer much too from natural gas supply, and the rise of expense on military budget, and may greatly increase the inflations and causing hardship to the people...and this may eventually turn the global economy into depression?

 

[Jippy]

I don't think it's a case of 'wanting' to see that stuff. It should however most definitely be seen as that's the harsh reality of war which no doubt is lost on a few on here and the wider public. No point sugar coating it or burying one's head in the sand.

If you're reading and hearing about casualties in the conflict, do you really need to see the mangled bodies to avoid 'burying your head in the sand'? By that logic, we should also show more graphic pictures of drink driving fatalities, victims of stabbings, etc...People have the right to choose if they see this stuff or not.

 

[Sir Matt]

No one wants WWIII so its probably just sanctions to isolate Putin and devastate the Russian economy, maybe we will enter the cold war again.

And of course, the west would suffer much too from natural gas supply, and the rise of expense on military budget, and may greatly increase the inflations and causing hardship to the people...and this may eventually turn the global economy into depression?

This will force Europe, the US, and others to take energy independence and renewable/alternative energy more seriously as a security concern. It will likely drive more money into research for renewables, nuclear, and other energy sources that are less dependent on Russia or the Middle East.

In terms of defense spending, the US spends outrageous amounts, but a sizable portion of this is because the US is at the bleeding edge of military technology, which drives up the costs (not to mention greedy defense contractors). Adding more Germans (and other Europeans) to military research and development will improve results and potentially lead to more competition and hopefully less cost for advanced technology.

 

[Raoul]

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[Wibble]

but at what point when the loss of life reaches terrifying levels, do we actually intervene militarily?

Doubtful ever if the war remains off NATO soil. I guess if Putin took to sending Ukrainians to extermination camps or something unlikely than maybe.

 

[Sir Matt]

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[simonhch]

This will force Europe, the US, and others to take energy independence and renewable/alternative energy more seriously as a security concern. It will likely drive more money into research for renewables, nuclear, and other energy sources that are less dependent on Russia or the Middle East.

In terms of defense spending, the US spends outrageous amounts, but a sizable portion of this is because the US is at the bleeding edge of military technology, which drives up the costs (not to mention greedy defense contractors). Adding more Germans to military research and development will improve results and potentially lead to more competition and hopefully less cost for advanced technology.

You are right in that the US spends an outrageous amount. The UK outspent Russia last year 65bn to 61bn. China by contrast spent 139bn. The US? 783bn. How much of that goes to things like DARPA I have no idea.

 

[Sky1981]

No one wants WWIII so its probably just sanctions to isolate Putin and devastate the Russian economy, maybe we will enter the cold war again.

And of course, the west would suffer much too from natural gas supply, and the rise of expense on military budget, and may greatly increase the inflations and causing hardship to the people...and this may eventually turn the global economy into depression?

We already are. Covid alone ensures depression. Now this...

If russia switch off the gas europe will tremble. They might not collapse like the russian but the economic aftermath is carastrophical, inflation, homes cant afford gas, cannibalism between the richer state and the poor for gas (that or communism like rationing which wont work in capitalist countries), china, brexit, and covid can still evolve anytime soon.

Oh yeah we're pretty much depressed

 

[Sir Matt]

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[Raoul]

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Who of the oil companies is still left in Russia ?

 

[Water Melon]

The cold war is on already. The moment the butcher started bombings, denied Ukranians their national identity and sovereignity and started to play his nukes card, we were back to the cold war.

 

[Water Melon]

Who of the oil companies is still left in Russia ?

I hope Total are leaving as well. Russia's reserves will soon be shared with CNPC.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

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Appalling. That's 2 mothers and their respective young kids, FFS.

 

[Sir Matt]

You are right in that the US spends an outrageous amount. The UK outspent Russia last year 65bn to 61bn. China by contrast spent 139bn. The US? 783bn. How much of that goes to things like DARPA I have no idea.

Looks like for FY22, $112 bn was dedicated to R&D.

Russia and China have the benefit of their contractors all being state owned so there are fewer expenses (i.e., no shareholders).

 

[ooeat0meoo]

State of the Union: Biden just announced that as of tonight he's shutting off all US airspace to Russian flights

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

State of the Union: Biden just announced that as of tonight he's shutting off all US airspace to Russian flights

Mitch looks like he's going to break down crying. I wonder what's wrong.

 

[maniak]

What kind of psycho wants to be a cop in russia? Seems half the time their arresting their own citizens just for saying things the government doesn't like. Taking little kids to jail because the said no to war. I'd quit my job on the spot.

 

[sglowrider]

Mitch looks like he's going to break down crying. I wonder what's wrong.

Probably wanted to use that idea for hitting Biden by accusing him of not doing enough.

 

[VeevaVee]

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Did he really expect to be welcomed?
I imagine they also factored in the potential for this level of fighting pretty early on, surely.
You'd expect they factored in all the sanctions too.

I'm guessing this is close to their worst case scenario though? Without anyone else joining in the fighting.

 

[Raoul]

Did he really expect to be welcomed?
I imagine they also factored in the potential for this level of fighting pretty early on, surely.
You'd expect they factored in all the sanctions too.

I'm guessing this is close to their worst case scenario though? Without anyone else joining in the fighting.

Apparently he thought it would be much easier than it has been.

 

[atkar83]

Did he really expect to be welcomed?
I imagine they also factored in the potential for this level of fighting pretty early on, surely.
You'd expect they factored in all the sanctions too.

I'm guessing this is close to their worst case scenario though? Without anyone else joining in the fighting.

Look at what his disinformation campaigns have done. Its helped remove the UK from Europe via Brexit. It helped Trump become president which allowed 4 years of access to US secrets. Its helped far right governments come into power all over the world. It's helped break apart the west with antivax/anti-semitism/anti-media rhetoric that's splitting the populations up. All without firing a single shot. He probably got overly confident in what his network was able to accomplish, they had probably been working on Ukrainian social media for years trying to make them more pro-Russian, but it didn't work. And the rest of the world tolerated him in the past but he simply passed a line he shouldn't have.

 

[Sir Matt]

Apparently he thought it would be much easier than it has been.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Apparently he thought it would be much easier than it has been.

So much for Putin being a student of history then. At the end of the day, he knew feck all just like Dick Cheney before him.

 

[RedRonaldo]

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That's insane. But the women shouldn't took their kids there for their own good, Russian government are ruthless on these.

 

[Pintu]

Apparently he thought it would be much easier than it has been.

Did he really expect to be welcomed?

It makes sense if they are working on old assumptions.

A tv anchor I was listening to yesterday talked about old elections results. The “Party of regions”, the pro-Russian party that ruled Ukraine up to the 2014 revolution used to get good results in Kharkiv.

In the 2012 legislative elections this party polled 30 % nationwide, but in Kharkiv they had 50%+ in almost all districts. People over there might still have some positive sentiments toward the Russian people.

But Putin and his regime are terribly mistaken in imagining that this applies to them. Or that people, no matter how upset they might be with a flawed democratic regime, would welcome the occupation of a totalitarian regime.

 

[Droid_Repairs]

Boris does it to look good, deflect attention, not to truly help. He didn't do enough to begin with and isn't doing enough now. He's happy the whole corona thing is off the table at the moment.

As for who came first - really? The UK can unilaterally make a decision to do something token. To do something significant takes the EU time because of the need for consensus, a word Boris doesn't know the meaning of unless it's involving himself and anyone funding him or his party.

I'm not fond of Boris, and I look forward to his departure. But this is a strange post, the UK's support of Ukraine has been excellent, no word of a lie, I had a Ukrainian on discord personally thanking me (which I found a little surprising!) Britain was among the first to send not only equipment, but before the invasion a number of troops intented to assist the Ukrainians with familiarising themselves with our equipment.

 

[Sir Matt]

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Let's hope so, Vlad. Let's hope so.

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[RedTiger]

Slovenian Embassy struck by missile

So is this a direct attack on a NATO member, embassies count as the nation’s soil right? Deliberate escalation, terrible accuracy? Hmmm..

If the US administration wants to go to war, this can be considered an escalation. But until then, I think Putin can attack a NATO base in Poland, and it will be deemed a minor incident, barely worthy of a limited riposte.

Also depends on whether there was anything of military value near the embassy, because the Russians could say it was an honest mistake. Anyway like you said, it's barely worth a riposte especially when embassies of other countries tend to get bombed sometimes.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Look at what his disinformation campaigns have done. Its helped remove the UK from Europe via Brexit. It helped Trump become president which allowed 4 years of access to US secrets. Its helped far right governments come into power all over the world. It's helped break apart the west with antivax/anti-semitism/anti-media rhetoric that's splitting the populations up. All without firing a single shot. He probably got overly confident in what his network was able to accomplish, they had probably been working on Ukrainian social media for years trying to make them more pro-Russian, but it didn't work. And the rest of the world tolerated him in the past but he simply passed a line he shouldn't have.

Absolutely bang on.

He’s debased and degraded Western democracy for years and should have never even been tolerated this far.

 

[atkar83]

So that 40 mile long armada heading to Kiev is stalled. Running out of gas and food. As it stands the frustration is growing amongst Russian soldiers and probably their generals in the field. Its about 17 miles outside Kiev I believe. What do you do if you're the Ukrainians?

- Bombing the line of vehicles while stranded and killing Russians may piss them off and galvanize their resolve. It may also look bad on an international level but I'm not certain (this is war and running out of fuel should be a fatal mistake)

- Bombing the rear supply line so further food/fuel can't arrive might make the situation more desperate, but you also don't want 'forward' as the only option left for the soldiers who otherwise want to leave

- With the extra few days its bought Kiev, can they get adequate reinforcements in? Can they line the roads ahead with mines? Any forward movement by the fleet will mean Kiev is that much closer to being attacked

- How much of the issue is self sabotage? Wouldn't take much more than adding sugar to fuel (even if it occurred in Russia or Belarus) to make most of those vehicles stall

Curious to hear how this should be approached by the defense. That column was sent in to destroy Kiev, but now other opportunities have arrived, or its just delaying the inevitable

 

[Sky1981]

So that 40 mile long armada heading to Kiev is stalled. Running out of gas and food. As it stands the frustration is growing amongst Russian soldiers and probably their generals in the field. Its about 17 miles outside Kiev I believe. What do you do if you're the Ukrainians?

- Bombing the line of vehicles while stranded and killing Russians may piss them off and galvanize their resolve. It may also look bad on an international level but I'm not certain (this is war and running out of fuel should be a fatal mistake)

- Bombing the rear supply line so further food/fuel can't arrive might make the situation more desperate, but you also don't want 'forward' as the only option left for the soldiers who otherwise want to leave

- With the extra few days its bought Kiev, can they get adequate reinforcements in? Can they line the roads ahead with mines? Any forward movement by the fleet will mean Kiev is that much closer to being attacked

- How much of the issue is self sabotage? Wouldn't take much more than adding sugar to fuel (even if it occurred in Russia or Belarus) to make most of those vehicles stall

Curious to hear how this should be approached by the defense. That column was sent in to destroy Kiev, but now other opportunities have arrived, or its just delaying the inevitable

You're so naive to think they're out of fuel on day 1 of their march?

Come on... they may be obsolete but i take twitter updates with some pinch of salt

 

[Raoul]

So that 40 mile long armada heading to Kiev is stalled. Running out of gas and food. As it stands the frustration is growing amongst Russian soldiers and probably their generals in the field. Its about 17 miles outside Kiev I believe. What do you do if you're the Ukrainians?

- Bombing the line of vehicles while stranded and killing Russians may piss them off and galvanize their resolve. It may also look bad on an international level but I'm not certain (this is war and running out of fuel should be a fatal mistake)

- Bombing the rear supply line so further food/fuel can't arrive might make the situation more desperate, but you also don't want 'forward' as the only option left for the soldiers who otherwise want to leave

- With the extra few days its bought Kiev, can they get adequate reinforcements in? Can they line the roads ahead with mines? Any forward movement by the fleet will mean Kiev is that much closer to being attacked

- How much of the issue is self sabotage? Wouldn't take much more than adding sugar to fuel (even if it occurred in Russia or Belarus) to make most of those vehicles stall

Curious to hear how this should be approached by the defense. That column was sent in to destroy Kiev, but now other opportunities have arrived, or its just delaying the inevitable

There's clearly something wrong with the 40 mile convoy of vehicles. The broader issue is that the Russians have underperformed massively on logistics, which is hampering their ability to make overall progress.

 

[carvajal]

I feel sorry for that boy. Surely is poor people who see in the army a way out and send them to die so young. Before the start of this invasion I always had the idea that Russia was one step ahead. Getting involved in American elections, cyber warfare, and a network with tentacles in many countries around them. Of course, I thought that their armed forces were extremely fearsome ( I also watched a recruitment video where everything seems very glorious and imposing), not only because of their artillery but well-prepared infantry, a high command with a clear strategic idea and effective analysts, but after weeks planning the invasion, they are surprised at its toughness, they are sent without gasoline, communicating with amateur radios, with expired food and with officers who execute you if you are injured or leaving your body to rot in a forest

 

[Water Melon]

He's an absolute cnut of the highest order without a doubt. What even is his end game here?

For years he's been placated by the West that he hates so much, and still he runs around throwing his toys out of his pram. And for what? So he can kill innocent Ukrainians and send Russian kids to their deaths? An absolute bastard.

I get the Jimmy Savile name and the comparisons but, really, he deserves to own his surname. He's Putin; the maniac who commited warcrimes in Ukraine. But I get it.

I see your point mate. However, there are thousands people with that surname. Imagine, how unlucky they are. A butcher who occupies lands, commits war crimes, imprisons or assassinates whoever publicly disagrees with his atrocities, does not see Ukraine as a state or Ukranians as a nation and calls for their "denazification" is as close to Hitler as it gets. Thus, Putler.