Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[MadMike]

I’ve just heard that Britain is finally opening its doors to refugees - does anyone else have confirmation? Better late than never I suppose.

Gove said the government will begin a scheme where people will be offered £350pcm to host Ukrainian refugees. Minimum 6 months.

Under the scheme Ukrainians who are matched and housed with a UK “sponsor” will be granted leave to remain for three years. They will be able to work, claim benefits and access public services in that time.

Website for sponsor sign up is going up tomorrow (Monday).

However it’s still on Patel and the home office to make it possible for them to come in by either waiving visa requirements or making it possible for them to obtain a visa easily. Nothing on that front yet afaik.

Source: Guardian article

 

[Garethw]

I have zero time for Biden, but I’m getting sick and tired of this constant “we must do more” line that gets thrown at him.

What exactly Do people want him and NATO to do? WW3 will likely end with nuclear strikes across the globe. WW3 will affect hundreds of millions of people.

A NATO intervention at this stage is likely to end the world as we know it. Why can’t people grasp this fact?

 

[Withnail]

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I know this has come up before but what's the big deal with chemical weapons? Levelling a city with shells and killing many civilians is ok but chemical weapons are beyond the pale?

 

[Rightnr]

I know this has come up before but what's the big deal with chemical weapons? Levelling a city with shells and killing many civilians is ok but chemical weapons are beyond the pale?

I am no expert but the issue in my mind is spread. Just look at what happened after that poisoning in the UK.

A city had to be shut down. Imagine if it was on a much bigger scale. Happy to be corrected, of course.

 

[calodo2003]

If things weren’t already shitty enough…

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[Oly Francis]

He's sending missiles into a city 50 miles from a NATO country... If there isn't any escalation at that then it's a matter of time till he starts shelling people at the crossing points... Is that the time to escalate ... Or do we have to wait till a missile crosses the border ... Or perhaps that's an accident so do we have to wait till several do... And by a few km just to be sure... Or do we just wait till he hits Warsaw?

If Ukraine wanting to join NATO was too much of a threat and in Putin's mind justifies rolling the tanks in then sending missiles to kill civilians 50 miles from a NATO country surely is enough for us to do something

I'm all for recognising st Petersburg as an independent state and launching a special military operation to protect them
Obviously not but putin can't be allowed to get away with how he has acted

50 miles from a NATO country is still not a NATO country. In times of war, everyone plays very close to the lines. So do we have to wait until a missile crosses the border, the answer is yes. The same way that planes taking of from Ukraine isn't the same as planes taking of from a NATO country 50 miles from the Ukraine border.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I know this has come up before but what's the big deal with chemical weapons? Levelling a city with shells and killing many civilians is ok but chemical weapons are beyond the pale?

I think it might be the lingering, slow death that's immoral

 

[calodo2003]

I know this has come up before but what's the big deal with chemical weapons? Levelling a city with shells and killing many civilians is ok but chemical weapons are beyond the pale?

Research WWI.

 

[Stookie]

Gove said the government will begin a scheme where people will be offered £350pcm to host Ukrainian refugees. Minimum 6 months.



Website for sponsor sign up is going up tomorrow (Monday).

However it’s still on Patel and the home office to make it possible for them to come in by either waiving visa requirements or making it possible for them to obtain a visa easily. Nothing on that front yet afaik.

Source: Guardian article

Thanks, it’s a step in the right direction at least. The UKs response to the refugees has been embarrassing.

 

[spiriticon]

If we are going to remain inactive about Russia's use of chemical and nuclear weapons in Ukraine, the West should probably stop harping on about human rights issues from now on.

We become part of the global problem.

Countries like Saudi Arabia will just keep on executing people, give us the middle finger, and tell us to mind our own business like we did in Ukraine.

 

[Oly Francis]

I am no expert but the issue in my mind is spread. Just look at what happened after that poisoning in the UK.

A city had to be shut down. Imagine if it was on a much bigger scale. Happy to be corrected, of course.

Not only, it's actually not that effective when it spreads. It was "banned" mainly because it causes attrocious suffering before victims die. And to be fair, it was also banned because they're not very effective, especially if the enemy has masks. Basically you end up killing civilians in terrible suffering but don't really hurt your foe's army.

I actually don't really understand why Putin would use chemical weapons, the biggest consequence (bar the death of civilians obviously) will be the images that will be filmed showing suffocating kids and woman, which will shock even pro Russian countries.

 

[nimic]

He's sending missiles into a city 50 miles from a NATO country... If there isn't any escalation at that then it's a matter of time till he starts shelling people at the crossing points... Is that the time to escalate ... Or do we have to wait till a missile crosses the border ... Or perhaps that's an accident so do we have to wait till several do... And by a few km just to be sure... Or do we just wait till he hits Warsaw?

Nato doesn't have any "shelling a country close to us" article response. You're presenting this as a salami tactics scenario, but it isn't really. Barring something unprecedented like a chemical, biological or nuclear attack, Nato can't and won't escalate until they are attacked, at which point they have to and will escalate. If bot, World War 3 would have broken out half a dozen times during the cold war.

 

[sun_tzu]

I actually don't really understand why Putin would use chemical weapons, the biggest consequence (bar the death of civilians obviously) will be the images that will be filmed showing suffocating kids and woman, which will shock even pro Russian countries.

I think he will use them on russian conscripts... Saying it was a neo Nazi ukranian attack.... Again hoping that the images of teenagers slowly suffocating will be enough to justify him levelling cities

 

[hellhunter]

There's also an argument to be had that B and C weapons only purpose is killing people, while shelling has the 'justification' of destroying infrastructure and military positions

 

[Withnail]

I am no expert but the issue in my mind is spread. Just look at what happened after that poisoning in the UK.

A city had to be shut down. Imagine if it was on a much bigger scale. Happy to be corrected, of course.

I think it might be the lingering, slow death that's immoral

Research WWI.

Not only, it's actually not that effective when it spreads. It was "banned" mainly because it causes attrocious suffering before victims die. And to be fair, it was also banned because they're not very effective, especially if the enemy has masks. Basically you end up killing civilians in terrible suffering but don't really hurt your foe's army.

I actually don't really understand why Putin would use chemical weapons, the biggest consequence (bar the death of civilians obviously) will be the images that will be filmed showing suffocating kids and woman, which will shock even pro Russian countries.

I must have forgotten that they were banned, seeing as they've been used a fair bit over the years.

The fact that they're banned and Russia signed up to the agreement in 93 is explanation enough. I suppose the indiscriminate nature and the fact, as someone said, that their only purpose is killing people whereas you could claim you were shelling a legit military target but missed and hit a hospital.

Although, the idea that one small chemical weapon should tip the balance, given everything they've done so far in Ukraine, doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Oly Francis]

I think he will use them on russian conscripts... Saying it was a neo Nazi ukranian attack.... Again hoping that the images of teenagers slowly suffocating will be enough to justify him levelling cities

That's unfortunately a possibility, but that would be a very dangerous order to give for him, I'm pretty sure some high ranking officers would decide that he went too far if they were to hear about it.

 

[Smores]

I think he will use them on russian conscripts... Saying it was a neo Nazi ukranian attack.... Again hoping that the images of teenagers slowly suffocating will be enough to justify him levelling cities

Justify to whom? He doesn't need it and even if he did he'd just fake it. Think you're stretching here.

I think they'll use chemicals weapons at some point but they'll spin it as a Ukranian accident. They'll hope it's enough to scare Ukraine into surrender.

 

[sun_tzu]

Justify to whom? He doesn't need it and even if he did he'd just fake it. Think you're stretching here.

I think they'll use chemicals weapons at some point but they'll spin it as a Ukranian accident. They'll hope it's enough to scare Ukraine into surrender.

Remember that by population more than 50% of countries didn't condem the russian action in the UN

There is still a big international audience (China and India for example) they want to keep on side politically and economically

This would give those countries the political cover to at least remain officially neutral

 

[Garethw]

So in the event of WW3, which countries are likely to side with Russia? China, Pakistan and Iran are the ones being mentioned.

In WW2 Germans that were living in Allied countries were placed in POW camps to stop them potentially joining the German Army. In the UK we have a huge community of Asians. Surely we wouldn’t be looking at POW camps etc?

It’s insane to even have to think about these kinds of things.

 

[TwoSheds]

So in the event of WW3, which countries are likely to side with Russia? China, Pakistan and Iran are the ones being mentioned.

In WW2 Germans that were living in Allied countries were placed in POW camps to stop them potentially joining the German Army. In the UK we have a huge community of Asians. Surely we wouldn’t be looking at POW camps etc?

It’s insane to even have to think about these kinds of things.

Pakistan? Not sure about that. Their military is dodgy as feck but as long as they don't depose Khan I couldn't see it.

 

[TMDaines]

Our in-laws live just down the road from a big military academy/barracks in Lviv, on the edge of the big Stryiskyi Park if you know the city. Getting a bit anxious now.

Still can’t get over the fact that Lviv is now the centre of the media world.

 

[Frosty]

The Orthodox world’s spiritual leader Barthomew I has called for a ceasefire in Ukraine while praising the nation’s “powerful resistance” against invading Russian forces.

Making a rare political intervention during a mass attended by the visiting Greek prime minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis, the ecumenical patriarch appealed for the violence and bloodshed to end.

Orthodox Christianity is the main religion in Ukraine, split between various strands.

“We are watching the drama of the Ukrainian people and admire its powerful resistance against the invader,” Bartholomew said in unscripted comments from the pulpit. “We appeal for an immediate ceasefire … the war has to end. The United Nations charter explicitly forbids the use of violence in international relations and binds all the organisation’s members to resolve their differences with peaceful means ... an unjust war is happening in the heart of Europe, human blood is being shed, children and women are being killed and towns and villages destroyed. Our thoughts are with our brothers.”

He then thanked Mitsotakis for the assistance Athens has sent to Ukraine which incudes shipments of Kalashnikov rifles and other weapons.

This is not the first time that Bartholomew has sided with Ukraine.

As head of eastern Orthodox Christians, the spiritual leader took the unprecedented step in early 2019 of officially recognising the Orthodox church of Ukraine, granting it the status of autocephaly or self-governorship within the communion of Orthodox churches.

The move, which rendered it independent from the Russian Orthodox Church, caused uproar in Moscow, which subsequently broke ties with the ecumenical patriarchate.

 

[Garethw]

Pakistan? Not sure about that. Their military is dodgy as feck but as long as they don't depose Khan I couldn't see it.

The article I read said that it was assumed that Pakistan would side with Russia due to its close ties with China.

 

[TMDaines]

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[Lightbringer]

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[Frosty]

This military base attack -- the base is used for "training with NATO instructors" according to the BBC. Does this mean NATO soldiers could be amongst the casualties?

 

[Frosty]

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A New York Times journalist has been killed near Kyiv, the region’s head of police has confirmed.

Award-winning video journalist Brent Renaud, 51, was shot when Russian forces opened fire on a car near Irpin.

Another journalist with him at the time has been taken to hospital for treatment after the attack.

 

[VorZakone]

This military base attack -- the base is used for "training with NATO instructors" according to the BBC. Does this mean NATO soldiers could be amongst the casualties?

I'm confident there are no NATO soldiers among the casualties as they've probably been transferred out of Ukraine pre-invasion.

 

[TwoSheds]

The article I read said that it was assumed that Pakistan would side with Russia due to its close ties with China.

I think it's a massive stretch to say how it would play out when the dynamic would have changed so much by then. Don't forget, close ties with China actually breed resentment in many countries, just as they have done in the past with the US and Britain. Militarily it might make sense now because India is the enemy but for example what if Modi decided his bread wasn't buttered with the US any more? Or even just that attacking Pakistan was less important to him than attacking China / he cosied up with China because he's an authoritarian wanker, you might even see a Pakistan-India alliance or just Pakistan realising China is their enemy. I think in a time where international political tectonics are shifting, it's not wise to assume alliances would hold up or that enemies couldn't become strategic allies.

 

[sun_tzu]

I'm confident there are no NATO soldiers among the casualties as they've probably been transferred out of Ukraine pre-invasion.

And any who were still there won't have been officially there...

 

[dal]

I have zero time for Biden, but I’m getting sick and tired of this constant “we must do more” line that gets thrown at him.

What exactly Do people want him and NATO to do? WW3 will likely end with nuclear strikes across the globe. WW3 will affect hundreds of millions of people.

A NATO intervention at this stage is likely to end the world as we know it. Why can’t people grasp this fact?

So if it would end the world then why would they act if Russia ‘accidentally’ bombed Poland.

 

[Smores]

So in the event of WW3, which countries are likely to side with Russia? China, Pakistan and Iran are the ones being mentioned.

In WW2 Germans that were living in Allied countries were placed in POW camps to stop them potentially joining the German Army. In the UK we have a huge community of Asians. Surely we wouldn’t be looking at POW camps etc?

It’s insane to even have to think about these kinds of things.

It's not as simple as picking sides. Even in WW2 it was as much about countries pushing their interests at a time of instability. We're in a very different world than WW2.

I think given the cost I'd be surprised if any country rallied to Russians cause immediately or directly.

 

[Garethw]

So if it would end the world then why would they act if Russia ‘accidentally’ bombed Poland.

Because Poland are a NATO country and bombing them would be an act of war against the whole of NATO.

 

[Dante]

So in the event of WW3, which countries are likely to side with Russia? China, Pakistan and Iran are the ones being mentioned.

In WW2 Germans that were living in Allied countries were placed in POW camps to stop them potentially joining the German Army. In the UK we have a huge community of Asians. Surely we wouldn’t be looking at POW camps etc?

It’s insane to even have to think about these kinds of things.

China might do, but only if it serves their interests in Taiwan to open a war against American forces on two fronts.

Pakistan is an ally of China, not Russia. Either way, they wouldn't join a foreign war. Their concerns are only with India. Indo-Chinese relations mean that China is the 'enemy of my enemy', but not much more.

Iran isn't joining any fight either. They've been crippled by the same sanctions as Russia (though we don't really hear about it these days). As such, they have an economic reliance on China and to a lesser extent Russia. It's a marriage of convenience rather than ideological alignment. Which means Iran don't have the motivation, money or even the military might to do anything against anybody.

 

[Oly Francis]

So if it would end the world then why would they act if Russia ‘accidentally’ bombed Poland.

I don't see why in hell Putin would want to "accidentally" bomb Poland. Why would he want to drag NATO deeper into this conflict when it would mean a swift military defeat if he does bar using nukes and starting a nuclear war ?

 

[Paxi]

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[LARulz]

Substantial progress in talks apparently

 

[hellhunter]

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Serbia?

 

[Revan]

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Serbia?

Wagner Group has some Serbians, so I assume it is that.

 

[Interval]

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You know when we were kids and our parents would ask us not to watch too much tv else our brains will rot.

I think the disinformation world and internet has done that to their generation instead. They are so used to believing in any institutionalised media as gospel truth from their upbringing. They just don’t have the same “erm… lemme check that on Google once” mentality.