What will "Give the new manager time" mean to the United board and the fans?

[RedPed]

I'm really happy with the incoming managerial appointment but not really sure as to what expectations to set. I've seen the impact Tuchel and Conte has had at Chelsea and Spurs respectively and those first 15 games under Solskjaer were probably my most memorable post Fergie, so I'm not necessarily down for a 1 or 2 year rebuild period. Do we really need as big a clear out as is being talked about or do our players really just need to fix up?

How long does a manager really need to impose his style on a team? I look at Crystal Palace as another example. Are people going to be happy with 2 or 3 years of Thursday night football for the sake of the bigger picture?

Reports suggest that Ten Hag wanted a 3/4-year deal to allow time to realise his vision. Why?? How did Tuchel turn things around completely at Chelsea in 3 months? And how are Spurs now favourites for that 4th spot?

What wil the minimum expectations be from the board and fans next season?

 

[Solius]

Chelsea have this weird invulnerability to rebuilds. It's very odd. They've had a self governing dressing room for most of their recent history so the constant managerial changes haven't really affected them.

It's not the case with our team and it needs serious work in terms of personnel and attitude. I would give ETH 3 years and judge him then. Hopefully of course we would see progress sooner but there's a lot to be sorted.

 

[mctrials23]

I'm really happy with the incoming managerial appointment but not really sure as to what expectations to set. I've seen the impact Tuchel and Conte has had at Chelsea and Spurs respectively and those first 15 games under Solskjaer were probably my most memorable post Fergie, so I'm not necessarily down for a 1 or 2 year rebuild period. Do we really need as big a clear out as is being talked about or do our players really just need to fix up?

Over the next few years, yes we need a big clearout if we want to play the style of football that ETH wants and if we hope to compete with City, Chelsea and Liverpool.

How long does a manager really need to impose his style on a team? I look at Crystal Palace as another example. Are people going to be happy with 2 or 3 years of Thursday night football for the sake of the bigger picture?

That depends on the buy in from the players and what sort of players they are. I would happily take 2-3 years of erratic but steady progress towards something that was stable and going to transform the club into a competitor at the top level again.

Reports suggest that Ten Hag wanted a 3/4-year deal to allow time to realise his vision. Why?? How did Tuchel turn things around completely at Chelsea in 3 months? And how are Spurs now favourites for that 4th spot?

Tuchel turned it around because Chelsea already had a very good, youngish side full of talented, hard working players that were more than capable of playing the sort of football he plays. Tottenham are looking like they will get 4th place because we have been awful at putting games to bed and have fallen away from the top 4 fight. Again, Tottenham have a ridiculously effective duo in Kane and Son who between them drag Tottenham from being a bang average side to a good side. Being good is enough when other teams around you are being shit.

What wil the minimum expectations be from the board and fans next season?

Competing for top 4. Moving towards playing a style of football that ETH will ultimately want to play. Getting rid of players who are incapable or unwilling to adapt and work. Not getting outworked, outplayed and outfought by 70% of the teams we play.

Competing for the title will take 2+ years if things go very well. Competing for top 4 should be doable in season 1 as long as he gets full backing to buy/sell players that he wants.

Outside of the top 3 we should 100% be the best of the rest even if we aren't firing on all cylinders simply due to our resources. We have seen what a crap manager can do with a basic amount of buy in from out players. We should be expecting something from next season. Just not too much.

I would like to enjoy watching us play and like the players again as well.

 

[el3mel]

Have no problem with the first season being transitional as usual. However, if we aren't at least close to challenging by second season, questions need to be asked.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Like pretty much any manager, show improvement year on year, I'd go..

Year one: Show signs that they're implementing a good style of play and improving the players, basically show some progress. Trophies aren't really needed but ideally they'd get top four if the squad is good enough for it
Year two: Should have built a solid foundation now and be playing good football consistently, but again probably still not challenging for the PL, but comfortably getting top four and maybe an FA Cup and League cup, and CL knockouts
Year three: Keep playing well, challenge for the PL by now and win a domestic trophy and get further in the CL knockouts
Year four: Win the PL, any manager who can't do it with our budget by then should be out the door unless there are exceptional circumstances like an unstoppable team at the top. Semis/final of the CL

No manager deserves an unlimited amount of time at a top club, you have to win trophies regardless of what the team is doing on the pitch.

 

[Blood Mage]

Klopp's first season at Liverpool was shite. It's not a given that a top coach will come in and have an immediate impact, especially when they're trying to completely change the way a team plays.

 

[sewey89]

Have no problem with the first season being transitional as usual. However, if we aren't at least close to challenging by second season, questions need to be asked.

Challenging City and Liverpool? Teams who have been built over 5-6 years..? You want us to be at that level and ready to compete in 12 months?

That's very ambitious. Challenge for top 4 next season with a clear style of play and that'd be enough to satisfy most. Depending how the first season goes should dictate our ambitions for the second

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Have the players for top four. That is a pretty slow ramp that ole was able to keep up with, obviously if ETH is better manager he should be able to. That is all the expectations. Title challenge within his contract to get a new contract. Other intangibles like style

 

[choccy77]

Have no problem with the first season being transitional as usual. However, if we aren't at least close to challenging by second season, questions need to be asked.

Got no chance and that's unrealistic.

This squad is pathetic.

De Gea and Bruno are the only two guaranteed 1st Eleven.

Everyone else is replacable.

It's not one or two players, it's 15 or 16 and you can't change that in two years.

Especially when the Glazers keep renewing stupid contracts for players who should have been gone years ago.

 

[sullydnl]

In terms of what giving the manager time means broadly, it depends on what the goal is. The OP contrasts the idea that ETH might need years with Tuchel's immediate impact at Chelsea, but if the goal is to actually challenge Liverpool and City then Chelsea are still a work in progress too. Will it happen for them next season? Maybe, maybe not. And that's with the best example of a manager having an instant impact. If it takes Tuchel and Chelsea years to do it then it certainly will us.

In terms of next season specifically though, top four should be the realistic aim. Because woeful though we've been this season, we're not actually that far off. But would I want ETH gone if we missed out on that though? Probably not.

More important than hard outcomes is the process. I'd much sooner finish fifth but with signs that we're developing a long term style of play in the way Klopp/Pep did in their early seasons than have Ole/Mourinho style second place finishes that are built on sand.

Generally though I'm taking "give the manager time" to mean sticking with him through the inevitable period where you start to think he's not worth sticking with.

 

[miked99]

On here? He'll get a handful of games before someone starts a thread saying he's shite. All this talk of how it's a process will go out of the window as soon as we play poorly and lose a couple of times. You know how it goes.

Across a wider spectrum of fans, I think most people would be happy if we were in the top four with the team being actually enjoyable to watch and seeming capable of stringing a few progessive passes together.

 

[Tavern in the town]

It’s strange how people are making such a big song and dance about giving Ten Hag time as if we don’t have a track record of giving managers time. If anything we give them too much time, all of our permanent managers post Fergie should have been sacked long before they actually were. I’ve no doubt he’ll be given ample opportunity to create his own team.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

I see this come up all the time.
Tuchels champions league win sure is impressive but let’s look at it in a wider picture, currently in third with a minor risk to their position, out of the CL, expensive signing not exactly paid off and unconvincing displays against the top teams including United.

Klopp and Pep brought in with a long term vision and idea of how the club will play, what players that will require and where the clubs want to be, lo and behold Liverpool and City are the two best teams in the world with two of the best managers in the world.

The club is at a juncture, continue to coast from manager to manager with dysfunctional actions and behaviour that may get you a trophy or two but based on recent history nothing or move into a sustained model like City or Liverpool with a structure in place designed to support a manager and the players in success, to adapt to the latter is to take a route down the road of becoming one of the best teams in the world but it will take multiple transfer windows and time to adapt and evolve the playing philosophy of the club.

Tuchel is a one off, not a heard stick to measure on. Conte will leave spurs in the summer.

I’d give the manager 3-5 years, with emphasis on the longer term, it’s unlikely he gets it right first time, we will have to see him learn adapt and evolve the team, many players he wants out may still be here in 2 years looking at Martial, Shaw, AWB, maguire for example. There will also be the transition of the club to a structure that supports the coaches, the hierarchy will need to learn how to adjust expectations and the renewal of contracts.

 

[sullydnl]

Another (minor) factor to consider is that next season will be more disrupted than usual because of the World Cup. It's going to take the team time to adapt to ETH's style and ideally they wouldn't be breaking off for a world cup a few months into that process.

 

[L1nk]

What it should mean is giving the manager ample time to create the situation and team that he wants. Whilst not giving them time for the sake of it like we did with Ole, even if we don't "get there" in the next year or two, as long as we can see actual ample progress in the situation with the squad, the on field performances and application etc then he deserves to get more time. If within 2 seasons nothing has changed we should look at the situation accordingly.

Klopp took multiple seasons to sort Liverpool out but he was afforded that time because you could see progress happening, not because he was given it for the sake of it imo

 

[FrankDrebin]

Have no problem with the first season being transitional as usual. However, if we aren't at least close to challenging by second season, questions need to be asked.

What ?

 

[Ramshock]

Will mean feck all to the plastics amongst us who have already bought new dummies to spit out the minute we drop our first point

 

[Mickeza]

PE trainee Ole and the worst coaching staff in history had us 3rd within 18 months and 2nd the year after - despite apparently signing really shit players. Provided we spend to a similar level that’s what I expect from ETH. As always I’ll fully support and defend the manager provided I see progress.

 

[NicolaSacco]

The big question for me is how low are you prepared to go in order to achieve the rebuild that is needed. Obviously he may find a way to rebuild the squad without dropping off, in which case great. But do you think he’d be afforded an 8th place finish in his first season for example, if it looked like the main reason for such a low finish was clearing out the squad if unwanted players/ blooding youth players etc.

 

[Random Task]

Have no problem with the first season being transitional as usual. However, if we aren't at least close to challenging by second season, questions need to be asked.

Considering the shameful display we saw against Everton at the weekend and the many others we've witnessed this season, it would be the miracle of the ages for ETH to get us challenging by his second season.

We need multiple upgrades in practically every area of the pitch. The guy needs a minimum of four fully backed transfer windows before we even consider judging him.

 

[DRJosh]

I’d like to think that as a fan base we’ve become more resilient to setbacks and hence less reactionary. There will be ups and downs (several of them) with Ten Hag but we should hopefully see ourselves on an upward trajectory - finishing in a top 4 position in the next couple of seasons and sustaining a good domestic cup run.

But beyond all else I want to see our players enjoying playing for the club.

 

[Random Task]

The big question for me is how low are you prepared to go in order to achieve the rebuild that is needed. Obviously he may find a way to rebuild the squad without dropping off, in which case great. But do you think he’d be afforded an 8th place finish in his first season for example, if it looked like the main reason for such a low finish was clearing out the squad if unwanted players/ blooding youth players etc.

This team is capable of finishing in the top 6 or 7 without exerting themselves too much - the lazy bastids have shown us that much this season. Any lower than that and we start to worry. I guess it's also dependent on how successful we are in the transfer window this summer.

 

[glazed]

The big question for me is how low are you prepared to go in order to achieve the rebuild that is needed.

As long as we don't get relegated next season I'm pretty happy. As long as the non-high press players and the old guys and the poseurs are eased out.

 

[Acole9]

We have to give him time. We've got no other choice.

 

[Kaos]

For me next season is a complete free hit. I wouldn't get the knives out even if we miss out on top 4.

I just want to see some positive changes in the way we play, whether that's more cohesion, a bit more creativity in the final third, and in general not being bored watching us play or getting dicked around by relegation fodder. That's all I'd expect in the short term.

If we look completely shit and are sitting around 15th by Christmas then its obviously a cause for concern, otherwise I feel like we should give him at least two full seasons before looking like we're challenging.

 

[RedPed]

I agree with a lot of the sentiment in here but the majority of fans had given up on Solskjaer towards the end of his tenure even though I could see what he was trying to do. He was a penalty kick away from being more successful and ON PAPER, he had assembled probably the strongest squad outside the 06-09 team. I was hoping he would have got to the end of the season and took a hard look at some of his approaches as I don't think he was that far off. He needed to bin the coaching staff and stop with the favourites shit. They were his biggest downfall.

So what if we see similar signs with Ten Hag? What's going to happen when we lose at home to Fulham next season? We all know what the matchday threads are like. Will the fans be giving him time?

 

[Francis Abernathy]

In the short-term, say 2 years, I don't expect any manager to transform United into a realistic challenger to win the PL because of the consistency & stability of the top 2.

But United should always be the most exciting team in England. That hasn't been the case for a long time & that aim is a bit more achievable.

 

[mikeyt]

Whoever got the job was going to need time...Progress for me would be turfing out some of the crap and bringing in some fresh blood that can play the way ETH wants them to. Next season I'd hope we can get into some kind of European comp with maybe a cup run but more than that is I want to see us develop an identity and a style of playing. Season after that with a few more additions I'd hope we could be looking at 4th again.

A genuine title challenge is at least 3 years away imo.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I’ll give Ten Haag at least 3 years to build his own squad. As long as he doesn’t get us relegated, he would be totally safe in his job, and would have all the time he wants during the length of his contract to play whatever brand of football he wishes. After first 3 years, I would expect him to compete for trophies.

But then I would only give time for manager with great potential that I totally trust can do a job for us. For relatively unproven managers (for top teams) like Moyes and Ole, they should be judge on seasonal basis.

 

[daveskimufc]

I think as long as I can see progress, I’ll be happy to have him around. If as expected he can’t get rid of all the dross in one season, I’d like to see some improvement in this player if he gets game time. Martial e.g. can he find some form with a bit of love and if he is politely informed that he is not a CF.?

An actual game plan coming along would be amazing. Bruno having a role that stops him running around like a headless chicken.

 

[RedPed]

I’ll give Ten Haag at least 3 years to build his own squad. As long as he doesn’t get us relegated, he would be totally safe in his job, and would have all the time he wants during the length of his contract to play whatever brand of football he wishes. After first 3 years, I would expect him to compete for trophies.

But then I would only give time for manager with great potential that I totally trust can do a job for us. For relatively unproven managers (for top teams) like Moyes and Ole, they should be judge on seasonal basis.

Why wasn't Solskjaer given those same conditions?

 

[el3mel]

Challenging City and Liverpool? Teams who have been built over 5-6 years..? You want us to be at that level and ready to compete in 12 months?

That's very ambitious. Challenge for top 4 next season with a clear style of play and that'd be enough to satisfy most. Depending how the first season goes should dictate our ambitions for the second

Got no chance and that's unrealistic.

This squad is pathetic.

De Gea and Bruno are the only two guaranteed 1st Eleven.

Everyone else is replacable.

It's not one or two players, it's 15 or 16 and you can't change that in two years.

Especially when the Glazers keep renewing stupid contracts for players who should have been gone years ago.

What ?

Pep needed one transitional year at City to clear the squad of the deadwood and win the league in his 2nd season. Klopp needed 2 full seasons to challenge for the league and even in his 2nd year he reached CL final. Only at Man United will people convince you that you need 5 years to be just close to challenge for the big trophies.

With 2 proper summer markets, right players bought and shit players sold this summer and the next one, Man United should fully expect to be close to the top by Ten Hag 2nd season here.

Any other thing and yes, questions will need to be asked, like what happened with the previous managers as well.

If by the end of his 2nd season we are still a mere top 4 team, then it means our recruitment as been shit as usual and nothing has changed.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

The fanbase have another chance to come together and get behind a manager now, and have at least semi aligned expectations.

Instead after he draws his first game the ole threads will be bumped with people feeling like they need to blame past managers or specific signings from years past etc

He will get more fan patience than every prior manager because he is so popular, but it won't be easy and there will be no need to panic if things aren't going well. He is just a coach and not going to manage the whole club, it isn't the end of the world if it doesn't work out. Likewise, if he loses games it will be his responsibility but doesn't have to mean he has to be sacked.

I'm as guilty as anyone for calling out people that said Ralf would bring us to terrific football. If ETH struggles to get going, Ill personally try to refrain and let this be a new start for me. I personally feel like I really need it, post the super League I feel so different about my club. Looking forward to celebrating every win and relaxing a bit about the bigger picture.

 

[NicolaSacco]

This team is capable of finishing in the top 6 or 7 without exerting themselves too much - the lazy bastids have shown us that much this season. Any lower than that and we start to worry. I guess it's also dependent on how successful we are in the transfer window this summer.

I think you’re probably right, it’s more of a theoretical question. I can’t remember where Chelsea finished the season before they subsequently won the league a few years ago, but it showed that if you are a big enough name, able to still pay big enough wages, then does it really matter if you’re 6th or 16th? For Leicester for example it would matter. With Utd I just don’t see it mattering very much. I guess my question is more, in an extreme example if ETH drops every single player who he thinks doesn’t have a future at Utd under him (and by that I don’t mean the obvious ones, but potentially the less clear cut ones, like maybe AWB) and either buys a replacement or just plays a kid in their place, do you think that would still be acceptable enough to keep him
In a job in his first season? Even if you finished, stay, 12th? It’s a really difficult one.

 

[RedPed]

Pep needed one transitional year at City to clear the squad of the deadwood and win the league in his 2nd season. Klopp needed 2 full seasons to challenge for the league and even in his 2nd year he reached CL final. Only at Man United will people convince you that you need 5 years to be just close to challenge for the big trophies.

With 2 proper summer markets, right players bought and shit players sold this summer and the next one, Man United should fully expect to be close to the top by Ten Hag 2nd season here.

Any other thing and yes, questions will need to be asked, like what happened with the previous managers as well.

If by the end of his 2nd season we are still a mere top 4 team, then it means our recruitment as been shit as usual and nothing has changed.

Exactly, that is where my head is at the moment. Don't understand why new managers need years to make an impact at United when virtually everywhere else changes can be see almost straight away.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Why wasn't Solskjaer given those same conditions?

First of all, Ole has already been given 3 years and total spending of over 450m.

But most importantly, he wasn’t proven enough:
- won nothing in the past
- his only experience in top flight is his time with Cardiff City, where he was struggling into relegation
- he doesn’t have a distinctive style of play which gives us enough confidence to proceed longer with his project here
- he has already spend alot of money here (more than Liverpool and Chelsea, just little less than City), but fails to deliver.

 

[SuperiorXI]

I will adjust my expectations in line with the changes he makes. Honestly if we start next season with the same crop of players I'm going to be seriously pissed off. He deserves time but along with it needs to make key decisions.

 

[Random Task]

I think you’re probably right, it’s more of a theoretical question. I can’t remember where Chelsea finished the season before they subsequently won the league a few years ago, but it showed that if you are a big enough name, able to still pay big enough wages, then does it really matter if you’re 6th or 16th? For Leicester for example it would matter. With Utd I just don’t see it mattering very much. I guess my question is more, in an extreme example if ETH drops every single player who he thinks doesn’t have a future at Utd under him (and by that I don’t mean the obvious ones, but potentially the less clear cut ones, like maybe AWB) and either buys a replacement or just plays a kid in their place, do you think that would still be acceptable enough to keep him
In a job in his first season? Even if you finished, stay, 12th? It’s a really difficult one.

All fair questions.

Personally, I'd be absolutely fine with any league position next season (short of relegation) as long as there is a plan in place, one that we can all see taking shape. I don't care one iota who the manager wants to clear out as, quite frankly, I've no particular attachment to any of them. I'd be happy to run with a squad of kids for the remainder of this season and the following.

I can't speak for everyone, of course. For starters, the Twitter crowd will be all over ETH if we're hovering around midtable in January, that's a certainty, demanding his resignation and possible prison time if we're anywhere close to 16th place. If we've learned anything about our club post-SAF, it's that we have a very impatient fanbase.

 

[BusbyMalone]

I just don't think it's particularly realistic to expect a title challenge in his second season. Context is very important, and you can't ignore the fact that our two biggest rivals have two of the best managers in the world. No matter who we bring in, he's not going to be as good as them. They also have settled squads with a proper club structure in place. And that's just City and Liverpool. You also got Chelsea to contend with.

I'm not saying we should accept mediocrity but simply acknowledge reality. I suppose it comes down to your definition of "title challenge". I would agree that if we find ourselves in a similar position we're in now in his second season (i.e., 20 odd points behind) then that would be unacceptable. But I don't think it's realistic to expect us to be within 2 points of the leader going into the last couple of weeks of the season. Obviously, there's a middle ground between these two extremes that I would be content with.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

36 months, six transfer windows, 10-12 players out, 10-12 players in.

Allow him to change the culture, the players, ethos, reset the dressing room, get the players a year under him to learn how to play etc. I expect nothing in the first 12 months really.

Players out:

Pogba
Martial
Cavani
Ronaldo
Bailly
Jones
Greenwood
Mata
Shaw
AWB
Lingard