Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[stefan92]

Or perhaps he acts in a very selfish way, as usually happens with Germans. If Americans and Poland and the English can help Ukraine win, then fine, Germany also helped sending those helmets. If the Russians win, then again fine, Germans can still get Russian gas and resume economic relations with Russia. Yes, it is true that Ukrainians die every day, but do Germans care? (Of course they do, they care and they send thoughts and prayers! )

Not even Ukraine (really) cares about Russian gas. The pipelines through Ukraine are still operational. Ukraine could stop this, but they don't.

 

[stefan92]

I'm saying I think that's what a Russian friendly head of state in a Western friendly country would act like in a crisis like this. I.e. dragging their feet a lot and wasting time but not being able to go completely against the sentiment in the country. I'm not saying Scholz is a Le Pen on all policies at all.

There are several important members of Scholz' party that are quite open friendly to Russia, most well known for sure Gerhard Schröder. Scholz himself however isn't known to have close ties to Russia.

But what Scholz is known for (a bit like Merkel also was) is being cautious, not committing to a cause, always keep plausible deniability if something goes wrong, never be responsible for big mistakes. It's what won him the election and made him chancellor, as the other candidates made mistakes, but it is quite logical that he never acts as a leader in the way a lot of people would like.

It's usually not even a bad thing to have a bureaucrat as leader of the government, who just works through the stuff that has to be done, but I think it's clear that he is simply the wrong choice during a war (maybe call him our Chamberlain, let's see if we need/get a Churchill, too).

 

[Dans]

Or perhaps he acts in a very selfish way, as usually happens with Germans. If Americans and Poland and the English can help Ukraine win, then fine, Germany also helped sending those helmets. If the Russians win, then again fine, Germans can still get Russian gas and resume economic relations with Russia. Yes, it is true that Ukrainians die every day, but do Germans care? (Of course they do, they care and they send thoughts and prayers! )

There's German politicians perhaps, and then there's German people but to label one group let alone both as not caring is not really right. Plenty do care - so much so that there have been spontaneous fund raising events organised by non political lay types (in my town we raised near on 25k on one Sunday afternoon) plus plenty offering Ukranians accommodation. I have seen several Ukranian registered cars in my town and know that at least 25 are now living here.

 

[TwoSheds]

Out of interest, does anyone know why we don't really hear of Spanish involvement in supplying arms etc? Ok it's not necessarily all equal in scale or type of support but the "big" European powers to my mind have always been UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and only the 4 former ones seem to have contributed or been talked about really. I know the Austrians for example are "neutral" because, well, let's not cast aspersions, but I'm interested to know what the Spanish people and government think of it all.

 

[DouLou]

Figured we'd be hearing a lot more about how the sanctions are effecting Russians and their mentality towards this war. Sadly seems like the propaganda and military have culled any kind of open anti war sentiments, but what are people really thinking? Surely this is still a massive topic of conversation between friends and families.

 

[Santos J]

Out of interest, does anyone know why we don't really hear of Spanish involvement in supplying arms etc? Ok it's not necessarily all equal in scale or type of support but the "big" European powers to my mind have always been UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and only the 4 former ones seem to have contributed or been talked about really. I know the Austrians for example are "neutral" because, well, let's not cast aspersions, but I'm interested to know what the Spanish people and government think of it all.

From a quick google it looks like their coalition gov was split on sending lethal weapons so don't know if that caused issues, they have apparently sent some stuff though:

Spain is sending more weapons and medication to Ukraine this week, as prime minister Pedro Sánchez and the Minister for Defence, Margarita Robles, indicated would be the case last week. In fact, Sánchez ratified his commitment to send more weapons to Ukraine during the NATO Summit in Brussels on Thursday.

The weapons are being taken today (Monday) in an Air Force A400; this is the second delivery since early March, not long after Russia invaded Ukraine. On that occasion several planes flew 1,370 anti-tank grenade launchers, 700,000 rounds of machine-gun ammunition and light machine guns to an area close to the Polish border.

On Tuesday or Wednesday, another A400 will fly an armoured ambulance, the army’s BAE Land Systems OMC, to the region to help evacuate the injured from towns and cities which are most badly affected by the war in Ukraine.

That flight will also be carrying 54 pallets (83 cubic metres) of medication and medical supplies from the Military Defence Pharmacy Centre (CEMILFAR) and the Gómez Ulla hospital.

 

[carvajal]

Out of interest, does anyone know why we don't really hear of Spanish involvement in supplying arms etc? Ok it's not necessarily all equal in scale or type of support but the "big" European powers to my mind have always been UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and only the 4 former ones seem to have contributed or been talked about really. I know the Austrians for example are "neutral" because, well, let's not cast aspersions, but I'm interested to know what the Spanish people and government think of it all.

In Spain there is a coalition of Government, PSOE (socialists) and Podemos (extreme left).
The latter have ties to Venezuela, they are anti-NATO and nostalgic of Soviet Union. Already in March in the European Parliament they voted (along with Basque separatists) against expanding sanctions on Russia.
They ask for peace "following diplomatic channels."
In short, Pedro Sánchez, whose priority is to maintain the government, is caught by the balls. The Spanish aid supposedly arrived after a call from Borrell to put pressure on him.
The Spanish aid consists of some quite useful rocket launchers due to their low weight and a light machine gun called Cetme Ameli, highly criticized by the Spanish army itself.
Supposedly now Pedro Sánchez is going to travel to Ukraine, but I would say that merely for electoral interests. I would not be surprised by a Macron-style photo session or military clothing

 

[VorZakone]

BBC:

German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock has said Berlin has chosen not to reveal full details about the weapons it has sent to Ukraine.

Speaking after a meeting with her Latvian counterpart in Riga, Baerbock said "we have delivered anti-tank missiles, Stingers and other things that we have never spoken about publicly so these deliveries could happen quickly".

Baerbock added that her country would help Ukrainian forces maintain advanced weapons systems it has received from Germany and its allies as well as training soldiers to use them.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Not that the Russians have suffered severe casualties or anything, but ...

"Russia will classify data on the families of those killed in the war against Ukraine"

https://frontnews.eu/en/news/details/27879

 

[GlastonSpur]

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[GlastonSpur]

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[TMDaines]

Not even Ukraine (really) cares about Russian gas. The pipelines through Ukraine are still operational. Ukraine could stop this, but they don't.

I imagine Ukraine stopping the flows of Russian gas to Europe would completely destroy goodwill and support.

 

[stefan92]

Still seems a bit unclear, but it looks like Ukraine is about to get self-propelled howitzers and the necessary ammo and training from the Netherlands and Germany:

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If they really get the PzH 2000 and a decent amount of smart ammo, this could really improve Ukrainian artillery capabilities.

So even if it might be another model (Oryx claimed it might only be the towed FH-70, not the PzH 2000), we slowly see an influx of 155mm artillery and therefore a shift to NATO standards. Can only be helpful, as it is much easier for NATO to supply the ammo for this, as the 152mm Soviet ammo isn't really produced in huge amounts in the West.

 

[Blodssvik]

Weapons sent to ukraine will find their way back eventually, in the hands of people we don't want to have military grade weapons. Germany only has poland in between so that may be a reason they are hesitant to throw everything they have into the fog of war. Ukraine was already before the war one of the poorest, most crime ridden and corrupt countries in Europe.

 

[Raoul]

Weapons sent to ukraine will find their way back eventually, in the hands of people we don't want to have military grade weapons. Germany only has poland in between so that may be a reason they are hesitant to throw everything they have into the fog of war. Ukraine was already before the war one of the poorest, most crime ridden and corrupt countries in Europe.

What exactly is your point ? Don't help them and allow Putin to proceed with genocide ?

 

[The Firestarter]

What exactly is your point ? Don't help them and allow Putin to proceed with genocide ?

Yes. That's his point.

 

[Blodssvik]

What exactly is your point ? Don't help them and allow Putin to proceed with genocide ?

I'm not german or in control of any such decisions, am I? My point was the arms shipment shaming is pointless.

 

[stefan92]

Weapons sent to ukraine will find their way back eventually, in the hands of people we don't want to have military grade weapons. Germany only has poland in between so that may be a reason they are hesitant to throw everything they have into the fog of war. Ukraine was already before the war one of the poorest, most crime ridden and corrupt countries in Europe.

I don't think this fear exists so i don't think it influences any decisions. But you are right, what we have right now is a war between two corrupt oligarchies, the only essential difference is that one is an imperialistic genocidal aggressor while the other just defends itself.

Still there is no alternative if we want to prevent a genocide, but proliferation is likely to happen. For example we know that North Korea got the design for the Neptune ASM (first test shots were made in NK in 2014) that sank the Moskva.

 

[calodo2003]

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[NotThatSoph]

Or perhaps he acts in a very selfish way, as usually happens with Germans. If Americans and Poland and the English can help Ukraine win, then fine, Germany also helped sending those helmets. If the Russians win, then again fine, Germans can still get Russian gas and resume economic relations with Russia. Yes, it is true that Ukrainians die every day, but do Germans care? (Of course they do, they care and they send thoughts and prayers! )

Classy.

 

[The Corinthian]

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‘Killed in unclear circumstances…but here’s a pic of a bullet ridden car that he was in.’

 

[TMDaines]

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[Raoul]

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19 rounds. Must've been not very well liked among the locals.

 

[TMDaines]

19 rounds. Must've been not very well liked among the locals.

Life expectancy of wartime collaborators is quite low.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

‘Killed in unclear circumstances…but here’s a pic of a bullet ridden car that he was in.’

"It was suicide. He reached through the other window over the roof and shot himself" said Russian state media.

 

[Carolina Red]

Germany only has poland in between

Yeah, that's the "only thing" Germany has protecting them. Sure.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I'm not german or in control of any such decisions, am I? My point was the arms shipment shaming is pointless.

It isn't pointless, because Ukraine needs all the weapons it can get get. The immediate priority is defeating the Russian invasion, all other problems - including that of weapons falling into the wrong hands - can be dealt with later.

 

[Abizzz]

I understand Ukranians wanting more help but this fingerpointing from a lot of people who couldn't give a flying feck about Ukraine before it was fighting their own enemy isn't exactly convincing me.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I understand Ukranians wanting more help but this fingerpointing from a lot of people who couldn't give a flying feck about Ukraine before it was fighting their own enemy isn't exactly convincing me.

Isn't convincing you of what?

 

[Abizzz]

Isn't convincing you of what?

That they have a point that what they demand would make the difference.

 

[Raoul]

Wow. That's Medvedev, Rublev (both top 10 players) and Khachanov out of Wimbledon this year. Not sure if I agree with this one.

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[GlastonSpur]

That they have a point that what they demand would make the difference.

The demands all adds to political pressure on those governments who could do a lot more to help Ukraine. I mean demands from those with influence or who have a high public profile, rather than posts on here.

 

[TMDaines]

Wow. That's Medvedev, Rublev (both top 10 players) and Khachanov out of Wimbledon this year. Not sure if I agree with this one.

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I would have hoped that we wouldn’t have issued any of them visas right now anyway.

 

[Raoul]

I would have hoped that we wouldn’t have issued any of them visas right now anyway.

Those affiliated with the government or otherwise linked to Putin's power structure, I would agree with. Random athletes getting sanctioned just because Russia happens to be their country of birth wouldn't really accomplish anything imo. Medvedev seems like a very level headed guy from what I've seen.

 

[nimic]

Those affiliated with the government or otherwise linked to Putin's power structure, I would agree with. Random athletes getting sanctioned just because Russia happens to be their country of birth wouldn't really accomplish anything imo. Medvedev seems like a very level headed guy from what I've seen.

Maybe, but this is the kind of thinking that allowed Russia to keep participating in the Olympics, basically under their same name and flag.

 

[GlastonSpur]

3,000 Wagner Group mercenaries deployed by Russia have been 'killed in Ukraine', MPs told:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...ve-been-killed-in-ukraine-mps-told/ar-AAWnh23

 

[GlastonSpur]

Russia’s central bank says that the economy will plummet in the second quarter and Putin is ignoring the warning:

"... president of the Russian Central Bank, Elvira Nabiullina ... warned representatives at the Duma this Monday that the country’s reserves are near their end ..."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...-and-putin-is-ignoring-the-warning/ar-AAWnTUj

 

[Jotun]

Those affiliated with the government or otherwise linked to Putin's power structure, I would agree with. Random athletes getting sanctioned just because Russia happens to be their country of birth wouldn't really accomplish anything imo. Medvedev seems like a very level headed guy from what I've seen.

You are not wrong, but think about the optics and propaganda in Russia if Medvedev wins.

 

[TMDaines]

Those affiliated with the government or otherwise linked to Putin's power structure, I would agree with. Random athletes getting sanctioned just because Russia happens to be their country of birth wouldn't really accomplish anything imo. Medvedev seems like a very level headed guy from what I've seen.

I would have sympathy with anyone who was vocally anti-Putin and condemning the invasion, but any high profile Russian cultural or sporting figures keeping their council (for whatever reason) I would keep as persona non grata for the time being. If you want to represent that flag and that country then this the price you pay when international relations sour.

 

[UncleBob]

Wow. That's Medvedev, Rublev (both top 10 players) and Khachanov out of Wimbledon this year. Not sure if I agree with this one.

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I fail to see much of a problem given how Russian athletes are being used to promote the war with the Z symbol.