Nobody said fans shouldn't get excited about emerging youth prospects.So fans shouldn't get excited about emerging youth prospects for fear of coming across as gloating?
Mind, we non-UK based fans can clearly see the PL is the best right now because of wealth, coaches, structures and final product.
La Liga or Serie A dominance translates into NT success because there's a lot more Italian and Spanish players in their domestic leagues. The Premier League being the dominant domestic league doesn't translate into England success because, as the most attractive league to play in generally speaking, it doesn't mean that English talent is on hand.
…which only reinforces my devils’ argument, doesn’t it? Feeling the masters and being the butlers…
People aren't touchy, they just don't like bad arguments. This thread was made in 2016. The first post says this:
Again, the post was made in 2016. A few months later, Real Madrid would win their first of three consecutive CL titles (with Spanish teams having won the previous two CL finals). Sevilla would also win the Europa League final in 2016, which they won again in 2018-2019. Their manager Emery would also win it again with Villareal last season. The recognized internationals of United mostly floundered. Cabaye moved to Dubai two years later. Lukaku is a meme player here.
I'm confused. Serie A's period of dominance in terms of being the top league in club football was the 90's. How many WC or Euro trophy's did the Italian NT win in this period?
Not really sure I fully understood that argument - do you mean they feel like they're the dop dogs while in fact they aren't? I think it's one thing to be proud or to argue that the PL is the best / most competitive / most interesting league, but another to recognize that that doesn't really reflect the level of the English NT. They are good though, and potentially could be as good as Italy and/or Spain (imo) if they had a similarly top level manager instead of Southgate.
In last seasons Champions League final 7 English players started the game and all play for England. 4 of them started the European Championship final for England later that year, 2 were on the bench and Foden was injured. It depends what you call international success. If you only class that as winning a major tournament (a very narrow definition of success) ((remember how your own countrymen celebrated finishing 3rd at the World Cup)) then your point is correct. I think if you're a bit more sensible then England having 7 starting players in a Champions League final and then reaching a major international final with all those players, except for Chilwell, contributing to that run is exactly what you'd expect to happen by your own measures.
Liverpool and City live off synergies. That's why complementary players like Henderson look very good and great system players like Trent or Foden look exceptional. The issue is that Southgate is an old school manager and doesn't know how to replicate these synergies and get more out of his team than the sum of it's parts. Similarly to how United signs great players only for them to become bad.
We had deep runs in WC 1982 (champs), 1990 at home (semis), 1994 (final lost on pens), Euro 2000 (final lost on golden goal)… and won WC 2006 with half the Italian squad plus 1/3 France squad (both the finalists) coming from the almighty Moggi/Juventus model. That same year 2006 we had the farcical Calciopoli dethronising that kingdom and Italian football went into wilderness…
Absolutely spot on.
I thought the initial discussion Bepi referred to was about international success at major tournaments, not at the CL stage, that's why I focused on that particular point.
Yeah, that’s the only missing piece in the current PL dominance jigsaw and, for the sake of my devil’s argument perspective, the most sensible one to a number of fans happily confusing PL football (a global, agnostic circus conveniently located where it can attract and move the most monies) with England football (with its local culture and heritage a la Southgate, better represented by mid-table level clubs).
England went to the Euro finals just last year so I think that part is catching up also, a manager like Potter or Howe instead of Southgate and they win the whole thing possibly.
I think what @Bepi was trying to say is that when other leagues have been strong i.e. Italy and Spain their dominance has been reflected by international football success.
This is what I was aiming at - if Madrid and Barca, or Bayern, are strong, chances are way higher than Spain and Germany are stronger as well because they usually make up more than half the NT. In England it's scattered over all the top clubs, so City and Liverpool dominating domestically (and/or in Europe) has a lesser correlation with England doing well at major tournaments (which they obviously did last year of course).
OK fair enough.
Much simpler than that: I was just arguing that a number of fans think top PL football = top England football, which is not the case in a number of departments. Therefore, such bragging amuses non-UK based fans.
Well, since the 88/89 season, there was an Italian team in the final every year of the CL up until the 98/99 season other than the 90/91 season. And let’s be honest, there would have been an Italian team in the final that year were it not for a heroic performance from a certain Roy Keane.
The article says:
This puts too much emphasis on money IMO. The PL could afford CR7. He was there. He just didn't want to be there anymore. Suarez wanted to move to Arsenal; Liverpool didn't let him. Modric wanted to move to Chelsea; Spurs didn't let him. Bale could have moved to another PL club; I imagine Spurs didn't want that either.
Fantastic post.
Focusing on money as one relevant category is perfectly fine, but these arguments seem to always focus on the aspect that tells a convenient narrative and not the one that really matters. The whole “fair money distribution” and “strength in depth” schtick is at the very least overstated. The EPL is currently the best league in the world because three English clubs are in the top5-6 teams in the world with both City and Liverpool having a decent claim to be top2. Depending on the CL results this evaluation might shift, but overall, City, Liverpool and Chelsea are elite clubs and part of a group of top favorites in the CL, while other leagues have one or no such team.
How is the TV money being shared in Bundesliga currently vs the EPL? Is there a chart that shows the different amount each Bundesliga team gets and the amount each EPL team gets at end of every season from TV rights
I totally agree. The TV distribution argument is not a sound one because the Chelsea, City could care less about how much they are getting in TV money and Newcastle will join that league soon
Whole article was actually pretty good, well researched and made use of multiple data studies. And it pretty much said what has been obvious all along: the PL took over in 18/19 and has pulled away ever since. These days both the top 3 and the bottom half of the PL are significantly better than the top 3 and bottom half in the other leagues. Midtable is closer though the PL still has an edge
Getafe knocked out Ajax a few years back aswell didn't they and ran Inter Milan very close over two legs in the europa.
In Europe, yes, but you could argue Brazil from 1958 to 1963 for most dominant ever - won both world cups in this period. Also, the intercontinental cup was won twice by Santos, in 62 and 63.
I find it funny that people say Spanish dominance when it actually means Real Madrid dominance. Europa League wins do count but I see that history normally puts all teams under their place... Valencia in 2000 and 2001 and Atletico in 2014 and 2016 are like a reminder of that IMO.
Wasn't exactly just real Madrid dominance? Between 2008/09-2017/2018 (10 seasons), Barcelona won the CL 3 times and made the semi's another 3 times, Real Madrid won it 4 times and made the semi's another 4 times. Atletico Madrid were runners up twice and made the semi final 1 other time. They won the Europa League 3 times. Sevilla won the Europa League 3 times. Bilbao a runner up once.
Not entirely sure what you mean but Barcelona won the CL three times in the period that Spain won their 3 international trophies.
Fair argument.
