look at the betting odds, don’t be daft. They were big favorites"big favorites"Be honest.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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Who cares about what happened 60 years ago, Argentina didn´t win CA since 93, 28 years. So, no, it's not easy to win it, or it hasn´t been for a while.
Messi participated in his first final for Argentina in 2007. That was 14 years after Argentina's last win. Which means he was around for 14 of those last 28 years without a win, a full half. Maybe, just maybe, it took 28 years because he's a loser.
This stuff is so ridiculous, he plays for a nation that had been in 25 finals. This is crying about him being born in second base and not third. Unbelievable.
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a loser that has annihilated Real Madrid his entire career. Deep down, you’re better than this
A loser that earns 300 millions a year.
Messi contributes far more outside of goals and assists than Cristiano and plays deeper on average. More than makes up for it for me. I've always been saying you could half Messi's goal record and I'd still think he's better than Ronaldo. So yeah, even at international level I'd pick him over CR7. And I know this isn't about who the better player is but who had the greater career but to me this is the same. The better player had the better career, simple as that. If I was Maradona I wouldn't swap careers with Zidane.
All those things aside, you really should come off your high horse. The level of statistical comparisons you people make has everybody who has at least some clue of statistical methodology cringe. Saying that you compare apples and oranges would be an understatement.
So, after 10 pages, are you lot any closer to the answer?
Figure I can find more sanity in this thread than over in the Pogba (Out) thread.
Figure I can find more sanity in this thread than over in the Pogba (Out) thread.
Messi a loser? FFS, this thread is becoming worse and worse.
Hard for me?‘Supports Sporting Club de Portugal’
It must be hard for you bro. To have one of yours that’s come along who is by common consensus only the SECOND best of a generation. Never mind. Maybe the next great player you have will be better
The guy accomplished everything in the sport and holds records that won’t be broken until after we are all dead. Along with being the best player of his generation and coming from one of the top 3 youth academies in football.
Everyone knows this. That’s why while being happy for him because of his greatness it’s like…dam bro it took you this long? Playing for Argentina in a 2 horse race competition
Well the thing is, its never easy for Portugal to progress further in knock stage in major tournament against other football giants (France, Spain, Germany etc during their world domination), when he did score he also won the Euro with Portugal, and in fact he currently holds the record of scoring most goals in WC+Euro, while Messi scoring record in knockout stage (WC) has been equally poor, I don't think you can really criticise Ronaldo over that.
True in recent years (past 5-6 years), ever since Ronaldo has turned into poacher, his strength has always been more about his goals. But over the course of his long career (especially during early, mid, late 20s), he has far much more than that for sure. Here's his skill show for Portugal, absolutely breathtaking and enjoyable to watch. I know many people forgot how wonderful player he was in the past, as they often let this 30-36 years old poacher version of Ronaldo overwhelmingly overtakes their overall impression of the player.
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Portugal were very good in the 10 years before Ronaldo with Figo and Rui Costa and have a great system for producing players, they've done well in recent youth tournaments and have another great generation to come. I don't think Portugal are going away any time soon.
Doesn't really matter, the level of the Copa is far below the Euros.
In regards to the OP, I think both of them had quite average international careers with maybe Ronaldo edging it a bit.
In terms of World cups, both Ronaldo and Messi had quite the bad luck of playing against Spain, Germany and France, at that time, teams far superior to Portugal and Argentina.
In terms of Euros, Ronaldo had the same bad luck of playing against the same good teams.
In terms of Copas, I'd say that, other than the numbers, Messi under performed when it mattered, that's why Ronaldo might edge it, but Ronaldo didn't shine on the international stage as well.
If we take a step back and step outside our usual dumb feck fanboyism, we can easily say they were both quite average in their international careers but, at the same time, quite unlucky of not having the proper team and playing against 2-3 of the greatest generations of all time.
Also football has changed a lot. We're not in the 80's anymore where one brilliant player could carry a team to a trophy. The level of international football is getting closer and closer to the club one and having a good balanced team is very important.
At any one point the strongest European teams are better outfits. South American teams rely far more on individual talent/contribution, while European teams are always better drilled tactically. The moment any of those European sides also adds individual brilliance to the mix, it neuters us.
That's the bottomline that the knockout stat reflect. Probabilities are always on Europe's side to produce the best side around or one hitting peak form. I disagree with the notion that by extension "South American teams are not competitive" though.
WC2010: 13 Euro NTs, 5 SAM NTs. QF: 3 Euro, 4 SAM (all 5 made 2nd round but Brazil knocked out Chile).
WC2014: 13 Euro NTs, 6 SAM NTs. QF: 4 Euro, 3 SAM (again, 5 made 2nd round but Brazil knocked out Chile and Colombia knocked out Uruguay).
WC2018: 14 Euro NTs, 5 SAM NTs. QF: 6 Euro, 2 SAM. Clearly dominant here, although it didin't help our numbers that the champions' path was Peru (Group), Argentina (R8), Uruguay (QF).
It pisses me off running through that. Our best generation in my lifetime and only one Copa to show for it. Miffed at how we never got knocked out at full strength. Against the Dutch in 2010 we lost three players to injury in normal time against Ghana (inc. captain Lugano) and played out ET with Fucile concussed after a spear tackle of sorts and Lodeiro almost standing still for 50 mins with a broken foot. Add Suarez's handball red after phantom free kick and two players offside. Could have been a different story. 2014 Suarez chomping on Chiellini and suspended for two years. 2018 Cavani injured after his brace against Portugal... Sort of brings me back to reliance on individuals I guess?
Actually it does, I'm sure many Argentinians are miffed they had the world's top player for more than a decade and also only have one Copa to show for it.
Since you seem to love quoting FIFA rankings, please have a look at the below FIFA rankings comparison, I am sure you will find them interesting.
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May 2018 WC: Portugal 4th – Argentina 5th
May 2014 WC: Portugal 3rd – Argentina 7th
May 2010 WC: Portugal 3rd – Argentina 7th
Portugal in WC 2010, 2014, and 2018 is higher ranked than Argentina, a consistently top 4 side prior to the tournament. Since FIFA rankings reflect the relative strengths of teams as you stated, Portugal terribly underperformed with Ronaldo, no final, no SF, not even a QF with a top-4 team losing out to teams like Uruguay and USA…They should have easily played a final with Ronaldo and massively underachieved… whereas Argentina overachieved as their best rank is the 5th.
Again, since FIFA rankings reflect the difference between team strengths objectively as you confirmed, Ronaldo fans should cut this BS argument that Argentina has a superior team than Portugal in all these WCs.
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May 2016 EC: Portugal 8th in FIFA rankings only behind Germany and Spain in Europe and it did not meet any of these teams. Portugal was one of the top 3 sides in Europe based on the FIFA rankings and thus a top side. Furthermore, they did not even play against Germany and Spain, better ranked teams. In fact that, they did not even play against a top-10 team as France was ranked 21st unlike Argentina who met 2 top-10 FIFA ranked teams in the last Copa (Uruguay no.9 and Brazil no.3) and actually beat them.
So, Ronaldo fans again should cut this BS argument that Portugal won the tournament as a weak side, an underdog. How can you be an underdog when all the teams you play against are lower ranked than your team? And what exactly makes this win spectacular when France was ranked 21st (vs Portugal's 8th) and Ronaldo is a non-factor in the final? If anything, despite their superiority based on FIFA rankings, they struggled throughout the tournament against every single opponent that is lower ranked than them.
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What about Portugal’s performance in WCs?
In 2018 WC, Portugal (4th in FIFA rankings) lost to Uruguay (17th in FIFA rankings)
In 2014, Portugal (3rd in FIFA rankings) could not even pass the group stage, left behind USA (14th in FIFA rankings)
Overall, it seems, looking at the FIFA rankings, Portugal performed in an embarrassing fashion with a great team in the WCs, and much worse than an inferior Argentina side. And was probably the first side winning a EC without meeting any top 10 European side))
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You're missing the point somewhat.
Are Argentina one of the two strongest / best / favourites teams in the Copa year in year out?
Would you say Portugal is one of the two strongest / best / favourites teams in the Euros?
FIFA rankingsIf Messi were a Mexican you would have people arguing that him winning the Gold Cup once is a huge achievement.
I'd say individually it's pretty even. Relative to expectations, Cristiano, by far
1) says SA teams are shit and irrelevant. When shown how top European teams (Spain, Italy, England, Holland, Belgium, Portugal) were dominated in WC 2014 by not only SA teams but all other American teams, this time starts calling these top European teams shitty..BS argument..
2) says every decent side passes the group stage. When shown top sides such as England, EC 2012 finalists Spain, Italy and, 2016 EC finalist, Portugal failed to do that in WC 2014, calls these European teams shitty, again.. another BS..
3) implies Copa is a shitty tournament, but can not explain how mighty EC 2016 winning Portugal side lost against "shitty and irrelevant" American sides such as USA in WC 2014, Chile 2017, and Uruguay in WC 2018..
4) writes paragraphs about how ECs are on average stronger than Copas as if people are saying the opposite conveniently ignoring the fact that people are talking specifically about EC 2016 in which Portugal has an atypical path, the easiest path ever, and weaker than Copa..
5) continues to wrongly assume that by discounting EC 2016 win of Portugal, people are discounting the achievements of all other EC winners..
6) talks over and over about how strong European teams are and how they dominated those SA teams in KO rounds in WCs, conveniently ignoring the fact Portugal did not play against any of these dominating European sides other than France in EC (in which Ronaldo was a non-factor)..
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Yes to both based on FIFA rankings.. see below.
2021 May EC Portugal ranked 5th
2016 May EC Portugal ranked 8th
2012 May EC Portugal ranked 5th
You seemed to be very confident in the accuracy of FIFA rankings when comparing the strength of Portugal’s rivals vs Argentine rivals in your previous posts, adding the rankings and averaging out etc. What happened? Did you start having some doubts?
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Saying Argentina aren’t favorites every single year along with Brazil to make the final of the Copa is like saying México and USA don’t make the gold cup final basically every year.
You say Portugal had an easier path yet they barely made it out the group and barely won each game except for Wales.
So does that mean Portugal are much worse then Argentina consistently (yes) or does that mean the euro is the most competitive international competition after the World Cup (also Yes)
So Portugal had the “weakest competition in years” yet they still struggled the whole way through. Geez imagine if the euro was even more competitive….
Portugal are shit when the argument requires them to be shit and the cream of the crop when the argument requires them to be the cream of the crop. Cristiano Schroedinaldo plays for them.
Now you’re just being intellectually dishonest.
I've read a few of his posts in this thread, and there's nothing intellectual about them.
You'd have to say that even with his injuries being top goalscorer for WC and also winning the world Cup means Ronaldo has had the better international career. I think only Klose matches Ronaldo on the international stage with regard to strikwrs.
You are talking about fat Ronaldo I guess
If Cristiano never played for Real you'd say he is a great goalscorer, like Muller.
Says the guy who provides false information (in his response to another forumer above) in a football forum to strengthen his point, really embarrassing.. see point 1 below..
1) When comparing Argentina’s Copa rivals to Portugal’s EC rivals in your previous post using FIFA rankings, you said
“Let's take a close look at Portugal's run (using Aug 2016 figures - it's even more in my favour if I use May 2016)...”
which is a blatant lie.
So, all of a sudden you decided to help Messi fans and use Aug 2016 (post-tournament) figures instead of May 2016 (pre-tournament) figures though May 2016 figures are even more in your favor, really interesting and let’s say a little suspicious))
Then, you list the August FIFA rankings of Portugal’s rivals in the same post as below:
August 2016 rankings (the one that you used in your post)
Hungary 19th -- Iceland 23rd -- Austria 22nd – Croatia 15th -- Poland 16th -- Wales 11th – France - 7th
Then you find the average position as 16
Well, tell you what, I made a little analysis as I found your behavior a little suspicious and pulled out the below data from the FIFA website and to be honest, not surprisingly saw my suspicions being confirmed))
May 2016 rankings (the one you avoided using though it was supposed to be “even more in your favor” in your own words)).
Hungary 18th -- Iceland 35th -- Austria 11th -- Croatia 23rd -- Poland 27th – Wales 24th -- France 21st
Here, I find the average as 22.7, more than 6 points worse than that you found using August 2016 rankings))
Why might he have done that? Well, probably because, other than improving the average position of Portugal’s rivals by more than 6 points, it also elevates France’s position from 21st to 7th ensuring there’s another top 10-side along with Portugal in the Portuguese path in EC 2016..
The level of dishonesty and extent of embarrassing things people can do to support in a simple football forum, mind-blown...
2) uses FIFA rankings to support his case and when somebody else does the same using the same objective/quantitative data against his narrative, goes completely silent on FIFA rankings))
3) says to another forumer things like “I also find it amusing you have such a low opinion on FIFA rankings. I wonder is it because it doesn't fit your bullshi tnarrative?” ))
Again, what happened? Why so silent about FIFA rankings after my posts? I wonder is it because it now doesn't fit your bullshit narrative?
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Overall, the level of hypocrisy & dishonesty in a simple "football forum" is unreal….
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I’m really curious to see where Ronaldo ends up next summer.. I genuinely thought PSG would go for him but don’t see that happening with Messi there..
A part of me wants him to come back to us before going to MLS or wherever he decides to end his career..
But first priority is Haaland. And if Haaland does end up coming then I don’t see where Ronaldo would fit in..
A part of me wants him to come back to us before going to MLS or wherever he decides to end his career..
But first priority is Haaland. And if Haaland does end up coming then I don’t see where Ronaldo would fit in..
I can't see Ronaldo moving to the MLS....off field issues might prevent this....
Messi with a beautiful assist wow
I found it rather average tbh
He’s been great tonight, unfortunate not to score but two assists
kill this thread with fire, feck me why has this steaming turd been bumped....is it because of the amber heard case?
Guessing most would give it to Ronaldo on the basis of getting to batter amateur sides like the faroes, andorra and Luxembourg again and again