Abortion

[Rado_N]

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth?

For feck sake

 

[cafecillos]

no healthcare, no mandatory maternity leave and who allows its children to die on a regular basis

Core principles of the pro-life movement, among others.

 

[hellhunter]

For feck sake

That's a shocker, yeah

 

[Ted Lasso]

I think it's unethical to get an abortion in most cases personally but why restrict it for everyone else.

Murder is always wrong and even you probably agree there are cases when abortion is not murder (unless you think if it's a threat to a mom you shouldn't do anything in which case that would be murder)

So how can we decide on those cases or the unique scenarios? Ideally I would want a term limit and then strict doctors permissions beyond that but that limit is difficult for me to decide.

Either way, the complete ban on it is just nonesense I think even pro life person should see that as getting an abortion during the day a baby is delivered. It's that extreme of a view

Good to see some balanced view and opinions that take meaningful consideration of the lives and well-being of the mothers here as well while being able to speak on your values.

For that reason alone, I'm posing the following to you out of honest curiosity. What do you think of the factory farming situation and the way in which people consume meat? Likewise animal testing and then slaughter as well.

For context, I am pro choice. Similarly I think vegans that are trying to force everyone to stop eating meat are extreme. I personally have stopped consuming all animal products recently but do not ask others to.

Is it because the life of other species is seen as lesser? Is it a historical thing where people think it's ok because we've been eating animals for ages? Because from that perspective, abortions are a natural part of life across species and especially with humans dating back to before the concept of a doctor was even around.

It's not meant to be a 'whataboutism' just genuinely trying to understand why there isn't consistency across the platform. If it's not quite in your realm of comfort to reply no worries.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

That's back to square 1. Abortion yes or no.

We're going back on forth on why abortion is ok. And why some people think it's not ok. And at what point of time that it's a baby and not a fetus.

And again. I'm actually saying that up to a certain time it's acceptable to abort.

As I mentioned before, the record for a premature baby is 21 weeks, so 5 months 10 days. Anything before that has never proved to be viable.

Then there is the last 3 months, 3 weeks of pregnancy when you can talk about the situation for raped women.

Your numbers of 9 weeks or even 3 months (which is over 12 weeks) are ridiculous.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Until it becomes scientifically viable for the pregnancy to be transferred to ‘the father who wants it’, men should shut the feck up about having a say in abortion.

It was and is absolutely a thing in Asia that a man would rape a woman he desires who has no interest in him, get her pregnant and thus get a marriage faith accompli, ‘for the sake of the child’. Imagine thinking that is something conscionable.

 

[Schmiznurf]

Core principles of the pro-life movement, among others.

Much like the religious values they hold so dear, their movement hinges on a hell of a lot of contradiction.

 

[Donaldo]

I'm not speaking morally.

Im speaking law wise. For medical person to allow and proceed with abortion they need a lawful reason. Say.. rape. Yes morally it's ok as you said. But how does that translate in practice? In most rape cases the trial could go months, and by then it would have been too late. And you really can't expect the to barge in to the clinic and say it's rape. They need some kind of proof to perform the abortion. Be it court decisions or at least something that can legally allows them to perform the abortion.

This is why laws are hard to formulate because there should be no grey area and in cases there are always grey area.

Say a woman in her 20 says she got raped and want to abort. How do you know she's saying the truth? I'm not saying women lie all the time but from the medical standpoint they cant take your word at face value.

Holy feck.

 

[cafecillos]

Holy feck.

He is "speaking law wise" though. He's legitimately concerned about that. Not so much about the rape itself, but that's okay.

 

[WI_Red]

You said Rape is a tough choice (decision on abortion). No. No it isn't.

A child should not be born from such an evil, disgusting hate filled act. Period!

This take is vile. I’ll let my friend know that he should not have been born, and that his mother who chose to carry him made a disgusting mistake.

 

[Withnail]

This take is vile. I’ll let my friend know that he should not have been born, and that his mother who chose to carry him made a disgusting mistake.

Keefy's kind of forgotten about the woman's choice bit there.

 

[Sky1981]

For feck sake

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ate-abortion-bans-wont-easy-acquire-rcna34986

With Roe v. Wade overturned, exceptions to abortion bans — such as in the case of rape or incest, or for a pregnant person’s safety — are expected to be the only avenue to getting abortions in many states.

But meeting the qualifications for those asterisks to the bans can be complex and traumatizing, experts say.


For starters, exceptions for rape and incest are uncommon. The Guttmacher Institute, a research organization that supports reproductive rights, anticipates 26 states certain or likely to ban abortion now that there are no federal protections.

Among those 26 states, there are about 41 abortion bans total, with some states having more than one ban, it said. Just 10 of the 41 bans have exceptions for rape and incest.

In the states that do have rape and incest exceptions, requirements vary. Many, such as Utah, require victims of sexual assault to file a police report.

Given that more than 2 out of 3 sexual assaults go unreported, according to the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, these laws are problematic, said Grace Howard, an assistant professor of justice studies at San Jose State University who studies the criminalization of pregnancy.

Howard, who is a sexual violence survivor, said reasons for not disclosing such assaults range from self-blame to worrying about not being believed — a fear that often becomes reality when people speak up.

“It’s kind of this second round of being traumatized,” Howard said. “I fear that this will push people away from exercising that legal loophole that would allow a rape victim to receive this form of care.”

And traveling to states that are supportive of abortion — California and New York are two — can be burdensome, financially and otherwise.

 

[calodo2003]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ate-abortion-bans-wont-easy-acquire-rcna34986

Anything can be found via a quick Google search.

You do realize that you really aren’t strengthening your initial argument about being untrue when disclosing a rape, that 20 y/o statement. In fact, you’re bringing up how onerous laws can be in order for a victim to find justice.

 

[shamans]

Good to see some balanced view and opinions that take meaningful consideration of the lives and well-being of the mothers here as well while being able to speak on your values.

For that reason alone, I'm posing the following to you out of honest curiosity. What do you think of the factory farming situation and the way in which people consume meat? Likewise animal testing and then slaughter as well.

For context, I am pro choice. Similarly I think vegans that are trying to force everyone to stop eating meat are extreme. I personally have stopped consuming all animal products recently but do not ask others to.

Is it because the life of other species is seen as lesser? Is it a historical thing where people think it's ok because we've been eating animals for ages? Because from that perspective, abortions are a natural part of life across species and especially with humans dating back to before the concept of a doctor was even around.

It's not meant to be a 'whataboutism' just genuinely trying to understand why there isn't consistency across the platform. If it's not quite in your realm of comfort to reply no worries.

It might sound harsh to you but as the world it is right now human life is more valuable than animal life. Animals are known to trample their own kids and kill each other as basic instinct. A vegan will disagree with this but the fact is in general right now we don't equate animals to human beings.

I think abortion can be "natural" but can be brutal as well. For me it all depends on the week and I don't have a good answer. Some cases such as the health of a mother should supercede any term I understand that but in other cases im torn and at times I find it wrong.

I really don't know what the best term limit is. I know at 25 weeks or so having an abortion should have a good reason and not just my body my choice or I don't feel like going through with it. That just feels wrong to me.

But it's complicated because I wouldn't want the rights of someone who is getting an abortion at 25 weeks for a medical reason to face any issues.

@calodo2003 said he is fine with abortion till any period up until birth if it's rape. I find that complete baby killing.

Getting back again to the vegan thing I really don't find eating meat as natural of a thing as getting late term pregnancies aborted. I don't think the two are historically accepted because it's how it's been either. There's plenty of evidence as to why our body needs (or needed before supplements) meat .

I think not eating meat for me is a more ethical decision in terms of climate change so that might be the difference.

 

[Sky1981]

Anything can be found via a quick Google search.

You do realize that you really aren’t strengthening your initial argument about being untrue when disclosing a rape, that 20 y/o statement. In fact, you’re bringing up how onerous laws can be in order for a victim to find justice.

My original statement was "If I'm the law maker" it's " A grey are about rape victim"

I never said it's ok, or they should have them, or they should abort them. It's just not an easy ruling to make.

For me it's always a case by case on when an abortion is allowed if it's up to me

1. Endangering the mother's life? Mother's choice

2. Unplanned pregnancy? Deal with it. No life should be lost over just some financial worry.

3. Rape? Tough one where i have no answer.

But as such every rules needs a clear and applicable cut off point and we cant always decide justly on case by case.

 

[Withnail]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ate-abortion-bans-wont-easy-acquire-rcna34986

You're getting a bit of flack here but I'm getting the impression you may have been misunderstood.

Is your whole point on the rape aspect that legislating for allowing exceptions to abortion bans based on whether or not someone was raped is untenable and it should just be allowed without justification up to a certain number of weeks?

 

[Moby]

What she was wearing is next on the bingo card.

This. Couldn't be more predictable that the "women lying about getting raped" would follow the being on the fence about rape victims.

Morally bankrupt human beings.

 

[calodo2003]

It might sound harsh to you but as the world it is right now human life is more valuable than animal life. Animals are known to trample their own kids and kill each other as basic instinct. A vegan will disagree with this but the fact is in general right now we don't equate animals to human beings.

I think abortion can be "natural" but can be brutal as well. For me it all depends on the week and I don't have a good answer. Some cases such as the health of a mother should supercede any term I understand that but in other cases im torn and at times I find it wrong.

I really don't know what the best term limit is. I know at 25 weeks or so having an abortion should have a good reason and not just my body my choice or I don't feel like going through with it. That just feels wrong to me.

But it's complicated because I wouldn't want the rights of someone who is getting an abortion at 25 weeks for a medical reason to face any issues.

@calodo2003 said he is fine with abortion till any period up until birth if it's rape. I find that complete baby killing.

Getting back again to the vegan thing I really don't find eating meat as natural of a thing as getting late term pregnancies aborted. I don't think the two are historically accepted because it's how it's been either. There's plenty of evidence as to why our body needs (or needed before supplements) meat .

I think not eating meat for me is a more ethical decision in terms of climate change so that might be the difference.

It’s not a fecking baby until it is born. Stop with the shock words.

I’d go as far to say I would be fine with abortion up to birth for any reason if it ever came to pass, but I never had any issue with the viability clause in Roe.

 

[Moby]

That's a shocker, yeah

Not really if you have read their posts in the past. They're usually garbage.

 

[shamans]

As I mentioned before, the record for a premature baby is 21 weeks, so 5 months 10 days. Anything before that has never proved to be viable.

Then there is the last 3 months, 3 weeks of pregnancy when you can talk about the situation for raped women.

Your numbers of 9 weeks or even 3 months (which is over 12 weeks) are ridiculous.

Not only are 21+ babies regularly aborted for non health reasons (1% is a lot), I personally find the odds of survival outside the womb a little flawed in terms of deciding a limit.

A new born baby without any care would also not survive very long. Kids in general will not survive if not taken care of.

Problem is I don't have a good answer for a term limit. I think late 20 weeks should be unacceptable. 20+ weeks in general seems a little messed up to me but I can't say for sure so I guess choice should be given and before that it becomes easier to decide for ms

 

[Carolina Red]

Just saying that i personally thinks unplanned pregnancy should be a no since it's just that.. unplanned.

Great, now you’re just bringing unwanted kids into the world who are likely to be neglected. It’s a pro-birth argument, not a pro-life one.

I had few beers last night and decided to be a bit of an asshole.

Drunk words are sober thoughts.

 

[calodo2003]

My original statement was "If I'm the law maker" it's " A grey are about rape victim"

I never said it's ok, or they should have them, or they should abort them. It's just not an easy ruling to make.

No problem then. Cut off time for an abortion through rape & incest is birth.

 

[shamans]

It’s not a fecking baby until it is born. Stop with the shock words.

I’d go as far to say I would be fine with abortion up to birth for any reason if it ever came to pass, but I never had any issue with the viability clause in Roe.

At week 27+ a fetus likely survives outside the womb so you're essentially killing a baby at that point no matter how you look at it

 

[Keefy18]

This take is vile. I’ll let my friend know that he should not have been born, and that his mother who chose to carry him made a disgusting mistake.

Keefy's kind of forgotten about the woman's choice bit there.

I've forgot nothing.

Honestly if I found out I was a product of rape I'd likely commit suicide.

A child should be born out of love ideally, not the result of something as horrifically violent and disgusting as rape.

 

[calodo2003]

At week 27+ a fetus likely survives outside the womb so you're essentially killing a baby at that point no matter how you look at it

It’s not a baby until it comes out of the womb. It’s a fetus. There’s nothing ‘essentially’ about it.

Throughout the entire gestation, the fetus has a parasitic relationship with the mother. It’s always dependent on the mother at all times. That’s what makes it a fetus. Once it’s born, it’s then a baby.

 

[Withnail]

No problem then. Cut off time for an abortion through rape & incest is birth.

That's way too far for me. I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocate for that before. I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would leave it that late to make a decision.

 

[shamans]

I've forgot nothing.

Honestly if I found out I was a product of rape I'd likely commit suicide.

A child should be born out of love ideally, not the result of something as horrifically violent and disgusting as rape.

That's disgusting and I hope no one in that situation reads this and knows they are no different than any other kid.

 

[Sky1981]

Great, now you’re just bringing unwanted kids into the world who are likely to be neglected. It’s a pro-birth argument, not a pro-life one.

Drunk words are sober thoughts.

Many unplanned kids grows up just fine, not every unplanned birth would result in neglection. Some parents just not really planning for it, but doesnt mean they go starving and unwanted.

My ex was pregnant by accident, drove out of her house but the kids turns out just fine and they're happily together as family.

She was 19 when she had her first son

 

[calodo2003]

That's way too far for me. I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocate for that before. I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would leave it that late to make a decision.

I would never besmirch any female for making the decision to abort up until birth. It rarely, rarely happens, but they should still have that ability.

 

[Withnail]

I've forgot nothing.

Honestly if I found out I was a product of rape I'd likely commit suicide.

A child should be born out of love ideally, not the result of something as horrifically violent and disgusting as rape.

So your personal feelings on what you think you'd do in a hypothetical situation trump's the mother's choice?

It's her choice what she decides to do. That's the whole point.

 

[shamans]

It’s not a baby until it comes out of the womb. It’s a fetus. There’s nothing ‘essentially’ about it.

Throughout the entire gestation, the fetus has a parasitic relationship with the mother. It’s always dependent on the mother at all times. That’s what makes it a fetus. Once it’s born, it’s then a baby.

And what relationship does a baby have with the mother ?

You can't escape basic biology the fetus is not a blob until the 9th month where it magically turns into a baby.

You're grasping at definitions at a certain point a fetus develops a brain, lungs, all vital organs and the ability to grip. Calling for an abortion then is killing a baby that would otherwise survive.

 

[shamans]

I would never besmirch any female for making the decision to abort up until birth. It rarely, rarely happens, but they should still have that ability.

Luckily your opinion is rare and frankly opposed to your usual normal posts I find it kinda gross.

 

[Withnail]

I would never besmirch any female for making the decision to abort up until birth. It rarely, rarely happens, but they should still have that ability.

You've an extreme view. You surely recognise that and I don't particularly appreciate the inference that I'm somehow besmirching anyone.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

President Kang could fix this.

 

[calodo2003]

And what relationship does a baby have with the mother ?

You can't escape basic biology the fetus is not a blob until the 9th month where it magically turns into a baby.

You're grasping at definitions at a certain point a fetus develops a brain, lungs, all vital organs and the ability to grip. Calling for an abortion then is killing a baby that would otherwise survive.

Again with the scare words. It’s a fetus.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Not only are 21+ babies regularly aborted for non health reasons (1% is a lot), I personally find the odds of survival outside the womb a little flawed in terms of deciding a limit.

A new born baby without any care would also not survive very long. Kids in general will not survive if not taken care of.

Problem is I don't have a good answer for a term limit. I think late 20 weeks should be unacceptable. 20+ weeks in general seems a little messed up to me but I can't say for sure so I guess choice should be given and before that it becomes easier to decide for ms

But a new born baby does not need help to breathe, for it's heart to beat unaided or for its digestion tract to work. Before that, it's unviable.

Even with the best medical care, it's only a 50/50 chance it'll survive at 24 weeks (6 months). I think it's somewhere around 28 weeks that it's "beyond reasonable doubt" that it would survive, around 95%; week 30 for a 99% success rate. Like I said, with the best medical care. Anything before week 24 is not a baby.

 

[Keefy18]

That's disgusting and I hope no one in that situation reads this and knows they are no different than any other kid.

Oh sod off, its the reality of it.

Flipside is you're championing rape births.

Also as per the sentiment below, if its the mothers choice it'd also be my own choice to commit suicide would it not?

You can't have it both ways.

So your personal feelings on what you think you'd do in a hypothetical situation trump's the mother's choice?

It's her choice what she decides to do. That's the whole point.

Nope they don't trump it, still that's the reality of it.

She can make her choice much like the person could if / when they found out they were the product of something as horrifically violent and disgusting as rape.

 

[calodo2003]

You've an extreme view. You surely recognise that and I don't particularly appreciate the inference that I'm somehow besmirching anyone.

Please do not think I was intimating that you would besmirch someone, I was just illuminating my feelings on it. Apologies if it came off as a shot across the bow.

I do understand that it is extreme, but I wouldn’t be opposed to that scenario of having the option available.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Luckily your opinion is rare and frankly opposed to your usual normal posts I find it kinda gross.

What about, at any point in her pregnancy, a raped woman can induce child birth. If the child lives unaided, put it up for adoption, if it dies, it dies. Natural enough?

 

[moses]

As adults we have to bear responsibility over our action. You can have safe sex with very little chance of pregnancy if you took enough precaution.

Do you think having an abortion is just some whimsical get out?