What part of "it's up to the Ukrainian government to continue fighting" do you not understand?The wheat crises I hear is getting pretty bad and third world countries are also facing an energy crises with securing LNG deals because Europe is bidding on it instead raising the prices. Wonder how @Zehner will justify this now. All the war is is an extra euro or two for my trip to Lidl! Third world countries aren't human anyway so lets fight on.
That's not what our conversation was based off of. What instigated it was Biden signing of another billion to Ukraine and how a possible resolution could help.What part of "it's up to the Ukrainian government to continue fighting" do you not understand?
It was.That's not what our conversation was based off of.
And you want to buckle to the person who caused all this and is now willing to escalate the food crisis to blackmail the rest of the world to get away with his imperialistic actions. That's why I say you're only focused on the short term. The situation is how it is because Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Letting them get away with this is positive reinforcement. What do you think Putin will do in the future if he learns that food is the leverage in negotiations with EU and NATO? You don't make deals with terrorists.The wheat crises I hear is getting pretty bad and third world countries are also facing an energy crises with securing LNG deals because Europe is bidding on it instead raising the prices. Wonder how @Zehner will justify this now. All the war is is an extra euro or two for my trip to Lidl! Third world countries aren't human anyway so lets fight on.
Hold on now you're shifting the topic here completely. You and some others said the impact is not that bad. Just extra gas prices that I shouldn't be crying about. At least you can admit there is a cost to war. You are twisting it talking about a right to defend their country.It was.
And you want to buckle to the person who caused all this and is now willing to escalate the food crisis to blackmail the rest of the world to get away with his imperialistic actions. That's why I say you're only focused on the short term. The situation is how it is because Russia chose to attack Ukraine. Letting them get away with this is positive reinforcement. What do you think Putin will do in the future if he learns that food is the leverage in negotiations with EU and NATO? You don't make deals with terrorists.
Also, let's not forget that in the beginning you were just pissed that Biden sanctioned another billion dollar package for Ukraine, essentially burning tax money to accelerate inflation in your view. You didn't say anything about third world countries back then. Actually, your sudden concern for people suffering from food bottlenecks is only your third change of goalposts, the first one being that keyboard warriors like me shouldn't tell the people on the front what to do. Funnily enough, you're now even disputing their right to defend their country, claiming this choice isn't up to Ukraine.
So all of it. The answer to my question is all of it.That's not what our conversation was based off of. What instigated it was Biden signing of another billion to Ukraine and how a possible resolution could help.
Regardless, this fight is not up to Ukraine. They can't fight for a week if not for US, and EU support. It's not their decision but lucky for them so far we have decided to fight.
No I didn't. Why would I say such a thing? It's been one of the major topics regarding the war that Putin is holding third world parties to ransom. It's even been said by Scholz and other political leaders. What I said was that you want this war to end because of some America first thinking.Hold on now you're shifting the topic here completely. You and some others said the impact is not that bad. Just extra gas prices that I shouldn't be crying about. At least you can admit there is a cost to war. You are twisting it talking about a right to defend their country.
You're a strange guy. On the one hand you want the war to end because of the drastic consequences for the whole world and on the other hand you dismiss that a war in Europe has severe consequences on the global economy.Europeans facing war is so important no one dare question the cost of it. Third world countries be damned!
Not to mention negotiating with the Taliban who although have less blood on their hands than the above were fought against for 21 years only to be negotiated with.So, for all that "we don't negotiate with terrorists" talks, here's a very non-exhaustive list of states we're either negotiating with or outright helping:
Israel in their campaign to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians away. Saudi Arabia in their terror campaign in Yemen, among other things they're up to. Turkey against the Kurds.
By all means, don't negotiate with Putin, but pretending that it's some general principle or rule to not negotiate with terrorists is so bizarre. It couldn't be further from the truth.
It's not like they have a choiceI don't really buy the idea that without US backing Ukraine will cede Donbass. After Crimea and stuff before that as well you have one of the largest albeit poorest countries in Europe fighting for its existence. Ceding more of their country is just passing the buck until Putin makes another excuse to invade as if stating that Ukraine isn't a real country and has to be de nazified isn't mental enough.
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For instance Finland has some quasi border disputes with Russia, which is not something NATO is traditionally fond of. These disputes are not formal policy, though. More broadly, admitting countries with such a volatile relationship with Russia heightens the risk of military conflict for NATO (and lessens it for Finland).For what reason would a US senator vote against this other than to be a cnut?
For instance Finland has some quasi border disputes with Russia, which is not something NATO is traditionally fond of. These disputes are not formal policy, though. More broadly, admitting countries with such a volatile relationship with Russia heightens the risk of military conflict for NATO (and lessens it for Finland).
If NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance for its member countries, then allowing Finland (or Ukraine) to join doesn't make much sense. If it's supposed to be an anti-Russia organization, or an organization aiming for more military power on a global scale, then growing, and maybe especially growing toward Russia, makes a lot of sense.
People like Hawley and Paul are pretty isolationist, so they'll favour the defensive alliance approach.
I would very much like to know more about these border disputes you are talking about. I have lived my whole life in Finland and have never heard about any of them.For instance Finland has some quasi border disputes with Russia,
Probably this: the Karelian question.I would very much like to know more about these boarder disputes you are talking about. I have lived my whole life in Finland and have never heard about any of them.
I can't quite get my head around how you're clearly very intelligent and yet you're so wrapped up in the "West is worse than Russia" narrative that you're grasping like this to blame the West antagonising Russia for Putin's folly.For instance Finland has some quasi border disputes with Russia, which is not something NATO is traditionally fond of. These disputes are not formal policy, though. More broadly, admitting countries with such a volatile relationship with Russia heightens the risk of military conflict for NATO (and lessens it for Finland).
If NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance for its member countries, then allowing Finland (or Ukraine) to join doesn't make much sense. If it's supposed to be an anti-Russia organization, or an organization aiming for more military power on a global scale, then growing, and maybe especially growing toward Russia, makes a lot of sense.
People like Hawley and Paul are pretty isolationist, so they'll favour the defensive alliance approach.
It's not been my impression that's he's wrapped up in the "West is worse than Russia" narrative unless I missed some posts of his. I think the point regards to Finland is that territory disputes could escalate in the future. I still think Finland should be admitted to Nato regardless.I can't quite get my head around how you're clearly very intelligent and yet you're so wrapped up in the "West is worse than Russia" narrative that you're grasping like this to blame the West antagonising Russia for Putin's folly.
If a country with similar values and fears are worried enough about a threat close to their border that they want to join and strengthen your alliance, why would the other NATO countries want to reject that? Nobody has forced Finland and Sweden to apply, they chose to do it because of the actions of Russia.
And people like Hawley and Paul are Russian stooges FYI. One day the money trail will no doubt be exposed.
You've missed literally every one of their other posts then. And many countries have minor border disputes of one kind or another, it doesn't need to lead to a nuclear war.It's not been my impression that's he's wrapped up in the "West is worse than Russia" narrative unless I missed some posts of his. I think the point regards to Finland is that territory disputes could escalate in the future. I still think Finland should be admitted to Nato regardless.
Their or his?You've missed literally every one of their other posts then. And many countries have minor border disputes of one kind or another, it doesn't need to lead to a nuclear war.
I don't know, hence "their". It's not a rude way to address someone in case you're wondering.Their or his?
It's not rude, I was wondering whether you refering to several posters or a singular poster that is all.I don't know, hence "their". It's not a rude way to address someone in case you're wondering.
There are no disputes with Russia over Karelia, Petsamo or the Salla area because Finland has no interest in those areas. There is no economic value in having them as they consist only of forrests and old run down villages and towns that would take massive investments to get up to Finnish standard. No people of Finnish herritage live there anymore as those who where not evacuated after the Winter war where all deported by the Russians and replaced by people from other parts of Russia. Claiming the areas back is not even something that is discussed here other then maybe as a joke sometimes.Probably this: the Karelian question.
He isn't really "west is worse than Russia". He just views himself as beacon objectivity and bringer of the balance. I bet he tells the mirror every evening he is the best devil's advocate ever!I can't quite get my head around how you're clearly very intelligent and yet you're so wrapped up in the "West is worse than Russia" narrative that you're grasping like this to blame the West antagonising Russia for Putin's folly.
If a country with similar values and fears are worried enough about a threat close to their border that they want to join and strengthen your alliance, why would the other NATO countries want to reject that? Nobody has forced Finland and Sweden to apply, they chose to do it because of the actions of Russia.
And people like Hawley and Paul are Russian stooges FYI. One day the money trail will no doubt be exposed.
The West is not worse than Russia, I'm not blaming the West for antagonizing Russia.I can't quite get my head around how you're clearly very intelligent and yet you're so wrapped up in the "West is worse than Russia" narrative that you're grasping like this to blame the West antagonising Russia for Putin's folly.
If a country with similar values and fears are worried enough about a threat close to their border that they want to join and strengthen your alliance, why would the other NATO countries want to reject that? Nobody has forced Finland and Sweden to apply, they chose to do it because of the actions of Russia.
And people like Hawley and Paul are Russian stooges FYI. One day the money trail will no doubt be exposed.
Yeah I wonder too, apparently up to million troops will be involved armed with western weapons. It's good cause it takes of the burden of Donetsk region cause Russians will probably have to strengthen their positions in Kherson but on the other hand Ukrainians are spending their strength so to say in the coast thus weakening their positions in Donetsk.This is Zelenskyy’s first real test. Attacking is much harder than defending. Be interesting to see how it plays out.
I’ll let you decide on thatI hope this is a joke.
You're witnessing right now what happens when the Russians attack a country with a somewhat loose connection to the West. And you're still unironically wondering why they would welcome Finland into NATO. Finland, who as a member would probably "drag" the entire European Union into a war anyway, if they were attacked.The West is not worse than Russia, I'm not blaming the West for antagonizing Russia.
It shouldn't be controversial to say that a NATO with Finland in it has a higher risk of having to join a defensive war that a NATO without Finland. Sweden less so. (Edit: not a huge increase.)
If your goal is to have a defensive alliance to protect your own interests, and if these interests don't include weakening Russia or increasing your own military strength globally, then of course you wouldn't want Finland to join. It's great for Finland, probably, but if you don't care about Finland then so what?
It's somewhat analogous to a country with poor economic performance applying to the EU. It might be positive for the applying country to join, and it might make the EU slightly stronger as a block, but for specific countries any trade benefits are likely smaller than the transfer payments that will be needed, so if your own economic interest is the goal then you'd reject the application.
Sure, that's a good point. If NATO policy will be that they'll spend a lot of resources to supply European countries if they're attacked by Russia, without getting directly involved themselves, then letting Finland join might make sense even from a purely selfish, isolationist perspective.You're witnessing right now what happens when the Russians attack a country with a somewhat loose connection to the West. And you're still unironically wondering why they would welcome Finland into NATO. Finland, who as a member would probably "drag" the entire European Union into a war anyway, if they were attacked.
Conversely a defensive alliance is also stronger and provides a greater deterrent if it has more troops and resources, that's why people make alliances...The West is not worse than Russia, I'm not blaming the West for antagonizing Russia.
It shouldn't be controversial to say that a NATO with Finland in it has a higher risk of having to join a defensive war that a NATO without Finland. Sweden less so. (Edit: not a huge increase.)
If your goal is to have a defensive alliance to protect your own interests, and if these interests don't include weakening Russia or increasing your own military strength globally, then of course you wouldn't want Finland to join. It's great for Finland, probably, but if you don't care about Finland then so what?
It's somewhat analogous to a country with poor economic performance applying to the EU. It might be positive for the applying country to join, and it might make the EU slightly stronger as a block, but for specific countries any trade benefits are likely smaller than the transfer payments that will be needed, so if your own economic interest is the goal then you'd reject the application.
It is, but NATO is already the most powerful military force by quite a margin and Finland will contribute very little. Finland joining won't act as a significant deterrence against any attacks other than against Finland itself.Conversely a defensive alliance is also stronger and provides a greater deterrent if it has more troops and resources, that's why people make alliances...
Does @NotThatSoph actually share those views? I thought she was just trying to explain the alternative view.You're witnessing right now what happens when the Russians attack a country with a somewhat loose connection to the West. And you're still unironically wondering why they would welcome Finland into NATO. Finland, who as a member would probably "drag" the entire European Union into a war anyway, if they were attacked.
She.He isn't really "west is worse than Russia". He just views himself as beacon objectivity and bringer of the balance. I bet he tells the mirror every evening he is the best devil's advocate ever!
I don't know what was opinion and what was just explanation, but I object to the logic of it. Finland is part of the EU. The EU has a mutual defense pact. Most of the EU are also NATO members. So by that mechanism a large part of NATO would already have had to involve themselves if the Finns were to get attacked and the rest would basically have to throw their weight behind them, since if they wouldn't support their allies against the main antagonist of NATO they may as well leave the pact right here and now.Does @NotThatSoph actually share those views? I thought she was just trying to explain the alternative view.
For that matter, it's true that existing NATO countries gain next to nothing by Finland's inclusion. It mostly increases risk - which is odd if NATO indeed exists purely to protect its member countries. But then of course that's not true. Whatever it once was, it is now a kind of military solidarity union for (most of) Europe and North America, and then Finland fits very well, since it's a kind of soul brother/sister of many current members.
For what it's worth, I'm personally not sure what to think of NATO, but whatever it is, I like that Finland is joining it (and Sweden as well).
She.
It's not just about how much extra force is being added to NATO, it's also about where. N.Macedonia joining NATO means little to NATO and a lot to N.Macedonia. They are not in an area when other NATO members are worried about being attacked , neither do they expect N.Macedonia to materially help them if by some crazy development it so happens.It is, but NATO is already the most powerful military force by quite a margin and Finland will contribute very little. Finland joining won't act as a significant deterrence against any attacks other than against Finland itself.
Finland would not just contribute a little, I would say we would and will contribute quite a lot, especially to the defence of the Baltic region. We have the biggest artillery in Europe, more main battle tanks then a country like Germany and a modern air force consisting of 60+ F18s soon to be replaced with F35s. We also have a long History of dealing with the Russians and will contribute with that experience and a lot of intelligence gathering from having a 1300km+ border with them. Our defence forces are already completely NATO compatible so we could start contributing with this from day 1.It is, but NATO is already the most powerful military force by quite a margin and Finland will contribute very little. Finland joining won't act as a significant deterrence against any attacks other than against Finland itself.