Time to abandon "progressive" football...until we fix the foundations

Lentwood

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I want to make it clear at the outset that this is not a defence of Solskjaer, so to speak. I am not interested in defending or attacking managers at this point. The point is to address this notion that we have to play a certain style of football because 'we're Man United'.

Under Solskjaer, United were branded a 'counter-attacking team'. Whilst this wasn't quite true in the strictest sense of the word, we certainly played more conservatively, with a deeper defensive line, and relied on fast breaks and/or the so-called 'moments of magic' to win games.

In Solskjaer's first season, we finished 3rd, somewhat miraculously, after barely stringing two good performances together all year. The football was dour, we finished miles off the top, we didn't win a trophy...but we did finish 3rd and I don't recall us being thrashed/ embarrassed often, if at all.

Now...and this is the very important part...if you all think back to the start of Solskjaer's 2nd season, the general consensus from fans and pundits was that Solskjaer had done an OK job of stabilising the club but that we would never win anything by playing football this way and that we were somehow 'lucky'. In fact, many of our own fans made the argument that our 3rd the previous season was a false-position somehow, although I don't buy that personally. So, and this is the important part, we saw that in the first home game of Solskjaer's second full season, we played Spurs and tried to implement this 'progressive' style with a high-line...and I am sure you all remember very well we got absolutely destroyed, with the game finishing 1-6.

After this, Solskjaer quickly abandoned any thoughts of 'progressive' football and went back to his comfortable 4-2-3-1 middle-block with fast breaks. Once again, we ground out results and we managed to finish 2nd...however, again, we finished miles off City. As many will recall, we also reached an FA Cup Semi and a Europa League Final. Again, these achievements were written-off by fans and pundits, who talked about how we didn't play 'the United way' and that Solskjaer had to win a trophy.

Personally, I think we did very well to achieve those cup runs and that league position with what was essentially the 4th or 5th best squad in the league, but that wasn't enough for the 'we're Man United' brigade who somehow think we've a God-given right to win things! I believe it's stupid to set goals based on what the club might have achieved in the past and we should be more appreciative of were we are/were as a club. Sometimes finishing second and getting to cup finals isn't to be sniffed at!

However, once again, under pressure from fans and the media, and armed with three fancy new signings (Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho), United tried to implement progressive football at the start of Solskjaer's third season...only this time, we didn't abandon it, we got torn apart week after week by very average sides and destroyed by the good one's, culminating in Solskjaer getting the sack at Christmas. Many at the time, myself included, highlighted Solskjaer's lack of coaching experience and suggested that a better coach COULD have coached these players to play a more progressive style.

We saw Ralf Rangnick arrive in January on an interim basis and we all expected to see a high-line and aggressive, pressing football. This happened for about 25 minutes in Ralf's first game versus Crystal Palace and then we never saw it again. Like Solskjaer, Rangnick stuck to the more progressive style and slowly but surely, as soon as we started to play better sides, we got absolutely torn apart again. "Yes but Ralf hasn't coached a side in a decade" argued many of our fans, " and his backroom team lacked top-level experience". "That's why we failed to implement this more progressive style".

So...here we are now, 6-months later...another new manager in the hot-seat, this time a successful, modern-day manager who is widely regarded as an excellent 'coach'. Once again, ETH has attempted to implement a progressive system and once again, we have been absolutely savaged by two very limited sides. So what's the problem now? How many more managers do we need to go through before we realise this is a road to nowhere?

At this point, it is clear to me that we do not have the squad to play possession-based, progressive pressing football with a high-line. Continuing to try to do this with the likes of De Gea, Ronaldo, McTominay, Fred, Dalot etc...is footballing suicide. We are turning-up and playing right into our opponents hands by playing a system that actually nullifies any strengths we might have and exacerbates the weaknesses. It should be abandoned, the line should be dropped, we should forget the idea of a press and we should go back to looking to hit teams on the break.

Now, at this point, I am expecting a flood of responses about how 'this is not the United way' or how 'we'll never get anywhere doing this' but I think that badly misses the point. This team are just not capable of playing a 'progressive' style. Ronaldo is 37, Varane and Maguire are 29. De Gea is 30. McTominay and Fred are 26 and 28. Shaw is 26. These are predominantly senior internationals who have been playing football their entire lives...the phrase 'can't teach an old dog new tricks' has never been more apt. We could have Pep, Klopp and Nagelsmann in charge...it wouldn't make any difference. Pep couldn't coach Joe Hart to be a progressive GK any more than he could coach DDG, so he got rid, and quickly.

IF we decide that we do ultimately want to play this progressive, aggressive style, we need a new squad. Simple as that. However, we're not Man City or Chelsea, who through their purchase by a Sugar Daddy could change their entire squad in three windows. It's going to take us several windows to get from this squad to a new squad. I believe the choice is very, very simple...do we want to spend the next few seasons getting absolutely spanked by the likes of Brentford, Watford and Brighton playing 'modern' football...or do we want nice, pleasant 3rd/4th/5th place finishes and the odd cup run with an 'old-fashioned' style?

Of course, the goal is, whilst we stabilise, we add quality players in the right positions who CAN play progressive football...so that in two or three seasons, we have a young, hungry squad capable of doing what Arsenal have done and transitioning from a fairly outdated style to a much more modern style based on young, hungry, aggressive players.
 

Pexbo

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Christ, two games in to the new era under a new coach and we are abandoning our plans already.
 

fezzerUTD

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Thirsty chocolate fire guards are no good. You should abandon life and get off if this is what it takes for you to be a quitter. Ciao.
 

Garethw

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Any top manager worth his salt is not going to abandon his football philosophy two games into a season.

Any player that cannot get on board with the managers system should be dropped. Play a side full of youth players even if it means finishing 15th.

I’m sick of seeing managers bending to the whim of mediocre players like Rashford, Dalot, Maguire, McTominay, Shaw and most of the bloody squad.

They need to know that if they can’t adapt then they are finished here.
 

Shark

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I agree this squad isn't capable of playing the way ETH/RR wanted us to play, but City and Chelsea aren't the only teams playing "progressive football" and you don't need a suger daddy to do it. Brentford/Brighton with as you say limited resources made this transition just fine with the right players in key positions. The only difference is Manchester United managers will not get the same amount of time to implement it. Unfortunately we gave the most amount of time to OGS who wasn't even actively trying to improve our football but just survive because he was fortunate to be in the hot seat at all.
 

RoadTrip

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Christ, two games in to the new era under a new coach and we are abandoning our plans already for players who obviously could win things if we continued our archaic, outdated style of football despite all other top clubs moving on, and for a board and club structure we know is absolutely not the problem …
Fixed. Loads of people on this forum make posts like this and on the other hand will cry for change. Yet none of them really clearly understand what change means.
 

NoLogo

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I think the OP has a point though. With this team progressive football is impossible, maybe we need to more pragmatic for a while until we have the right players to play more progressive. Alternatively, we can try letting de Gea pass to man marked players next game again and see what happens.
 

ti vu

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You know that means you have to sack EtH right? You don't hire someone with his philosophy and then ask him to abandon it and learn a new style on the job.

Is this the sackwatch in disguise?
:confused:
 

Castia

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Nope we need to adapt and evolve. Sell the players who can’t or won’t adapt and go forward if that means finishing down the table and playing youth so be it.
 

Butty19

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No, it’s time to abandon the players that aren’t capable of playing progressive football, address the gaping hole in midfield and drop the gk and captain.
 

golden_blunder

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You don’t hire a manager, one of europes best young coaches, with a progressive style, then tell him him to rip it up 2 games into the season. That’s complete nonsense. I’ve always thought it will take at least a season to get a style implemented fully, and get some better quality players in. Things might get worse before they get better so strap in. Over 90% of this board wanted Ten Hag so to change your minds 2 games in because you have no mental fortitude, it’s the epitome of a kneejerker
 

Lentwood

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Hang on @amolbhatia50k @Pexbo @Giggsyking ....how is it 'two games'?

We have 12-months evidence at least that this squad isn't equipped to play progressive football.

I'm not asking ETH to change his philosophy I am asking him to be pragmatic and play more conservatively whilst slowly accumulating the RIGHT players over the course of the next four or five windows

That sounds like common-sense to me!

EDIT | loads of people saying 'change the players'....so you agree with me! Yes, change the players, but that's not going to happen in one window or even two windows!
 

amolbhatia50k

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I think the OP has a point though. With this team progressive football is impossible, maybe we need to more pragmatic for a while until we have the right players to play more progressive. Alternatively, we can try letting de Gea pass to man marked players next game again and see what happens.
Why should the development of the collective suffer because a few players are unsuited? Sign three players asap who fit the vision and keep getting better at through repetition.
 

RoadTrip

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I think the OP has a point though. With this team progressive football is impossible, maybe we need to more pragmatic for a while until we have the right players to play more progressive. Alternatively, we can try letting de Gea pass to man marked players next game again and see what happens.
No. There are so many issues with this approach. Not least that it’s failed so far.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Hang on @amolbhatia50k @Pexbo @Giggsyking ....how is it 'two games'?

We have 12-months evidence at least that this squad isn't equipped to play progressive football.

I'm not asking ETH to change his philosophy I am asking him to be pragmatic and play more conservatively whilst slowly accumulating the RIGHT players over the course of the next four or five windows

That sounds like common-sense to me!

EDIT | loads of people saying 'change the players'....so you agree with me! Yes, change the players, but that's not going to happen in one window or even two windows!
So start playing progressive football three years later. That's not how it works. You start now and keep adding players to improve how well it works.
 

Garethw

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Nope we need to adapt and evolve. Sell the players who can’t or won’t adapt and go forward if that means finishing down the table and playing youth so be it.
This is exactly what I’ve just said. Enough is enough. We’ve indulged these fecking players for too long.
 

Rams

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I think the manager will have to be flexible and adapt the tactics to the players we have available, and ETH has already said pretty much the same.
 

Chairman Steve

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At worst, we just have to squeeze some square pegs into round holes and next year those square pegs are moved on and replaced with round pegs.

I’d love to cull 10 players and replace them with more suited players but we don‘t have the money to do that and I don’t even think it’s possible to have that much change and expect to emulate or even better on last seasons 6th. We can’t throw talented youngsters in like Iqbal, Mejbri etc because their confidence would be killed out of the gate. Their introductions are probably more suited to when we do look comfortable and we can afford to give them a few minutes here and there initially, before slowly ramping it up if they do well.

I think we’re going to bite the bullet this season. Come the end of the season, I think the consensus will be that we look good in certain areas but the weaknesses stick out like sore thumbs and that’s what stopping us from looking much better.
 

Remember the geese

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If we refuse to move with the times for the safe haven of short term purgatory, then that is pretty sad in my opinion. Sure, immediate results might be a bit better if we decide to set up a certain way, but there's a limit to how far that can take you long term.
 

Lentwood

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I think there is some confusion about what I am saying here....so many people are replying saying 'change the players', which I 100% agree with...that's the entire point of my post! The trouble is, so many of you think that's really easy to do, as if we can just buy 15 players at the level required in in two windows.

Clearly we need new players, but what if it takes four or five windows to get there? Do we stick dogmatically to committing footballing suicide every week until then?
 

Lentwood

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Ridiculous thread isnt it. 2 games in. Poster would have got rid of guardiola and klopp as well if he supported either of those teams. Both managers struggled initially as well.
Who said anything about getting rid of ETH? Where has this 'two games' come from? I watched 60 games last season that proved we couldn't play progressive football, did you miss that?
 

harms

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If you’re alright with us never competing for major honors again, settling for a top-4 finish and an occasional FA Cup at best then sure.

We don’t need a band aid, we need a complete rebuild from the ground up. This approach can only work when your team is insanely stacked with talent — like Real Madrid that doesn’t really play progressive football. But I don’t think that there’s even one another team in the world that plays that way and achieves success.
 

avgp_1

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The thread title is slightly misleading, from the OP it seems he wants us to put a pause to this system until we have the right players for this setup.

Its an interesting thought and Rangnick who was hamstrung by no new signings had to resort to. If ETH doesn't get anybody in he might have to as well, because these players are simply not capable of playing that way and we will get battered by everyone.

But I would still wait for this window to close before we should decide to go back to something which we have reverted to in the past but have realised is not useful long term
 

cj_sparky

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Should be abandoning the players at the local dump first. Be interesting to see if "Money for nothing" can turn De Gea into one of those Sky dancer advertising men, Maguire into a nice desk lamp, I'm sure Shaw has enough padding for a fair few United Shirt cushions, maybe McFred into a nice pair of book ends and Rashford becoming a nice coat rack.
 

JeffFromHK

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Who said anything about getting rid of ETH? Where has this 'two games' come from? I watched 60 games last season that proved we couldn't play progressive football, did you miss that?
Not that WE can't play progressive football, it is De Gea, Maguire, Shaw, Rashford, Fred, McTominay, Dalot, etc that can't play progressive footballer.

Spot that difference and sort out your basic logic.

Without "progressive football" it will be almost impossible for us to win a single league title in the next 20 years and we will be doomed to fall further from grace and be less relevant in football. Stop that short term mentality like those politicans do.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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No.

Let's actually shape our team into being able to play that way.

It leads to success.
 

golden_blunder

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I think there is some confusion about what I am saying here....so many people are replying saying 'change the players', which I 100% agree with...that's the entire point of my post! The trouble is, so many of you think that's really easy to do, as if we can just buy 15 players at the level required in in two windows.

Clearly we need new players, but what if it takes four or five windows to get there? Do we stick dogmatically to committing footballing suicide every week until then?
Yes you stick with the style of football that you wish to implement. You don’t get hired for that then implement something else. That’s giving into the players. They need to know this is the style. Shit or get off the pot. If we have to throw some young players into the mix then so be it.
i think we need to adjust fan expectations to having patience. There are no quick fixes
 

Lentwood

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The thread title is slightly misleading, from the OP it seems he wants us to put a pause to this system until we have the right players for this setup.

Its an interesting thought and Rangnick who was hamstrung by no new signings had to resort to. If ETH doesn't get anybody in he might have to as well, because these players are simply not capable of playing that way and we will get battered by everyone.

But I would still wait for this window to close before we should decide to go back to something which have we reverted to in the past but have realised is not useful long term
Good point, just changed it. I don't think many people have read the post, I think they have jumped to conclusions and I think you're right, it's probably because the thread title was misleading