What is a modern goalkeeper?

[Oranges038]

I keep seeing this referenced any time there is a discussion around DDG. That he's not a modern goalkeeper.

If you take into account the basics of defensive organisation, making saves, claiming balls in the box, sweeping and distribution.

Aside from being more capable with the ball at their feet, not just booting it as far away as possible and being comfortable looking for and controlling and passing the ball around the box. How is a modern goalkeeper different to some of the greats from the not so distant past like Schmeichel and Kahn? Or even further back the likes of Banks or Zoff?

What is a modern goalkeeper? How much has the job really changed? What is different now for a keeper than say 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 years ago or more?

 

[Scarecrow]

I think you answered your own question in the third paragraph. A modern goalkeeper gives you an extra man in the buildup. It’s important against a high press, as otherwise you’ll be forced into 1v1s close to your box.

 

[do.ob]

Becoming more and more like an extra outfield player during build up.

Taking on sweeper roles, covering for back lines that push further and further up the field.

Perhaps more aggressive defending of high balls into the box, too.

You make it sound a bit like sweeping and ball-playing abilities are a bit trivial, but they are making a huge difference.

e.g.

Spoiler

 

[Robbie Boy]

DDG?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Becoming more and more like an extra outfield player during build up.

Taking on sweeper roles, covering for back lines that push further and further up the field.

Perhaps more aggressive defending of high balls into the box, too.

You make it sound a bit like sweeping and ball-playing abilities are a bit trivial, but they are making a huge difference.

Neuer is probably the archetype.

 

[Someone]

I think the main difference is passing. Most managers now don't like hoofing the ball to nowhere, they want the goal keeper to be able to make the right pass to help the build up play.

 

[Oranges038]

I think you answered your own question in the third paragraph.

I've been playing in goal for over 20 years, lucky enough to still be playing. But even for me that is the only noticeable difference I've seen.

I just want to know if there's more to it than that.

 

[Cascarino]

What you've described in your third paragraph, and while these traits have always been useful, the approach of the game today makes them crucial for most teams. By having your keeper being comfortable on the ball, it makes a world of difference when it comes to playing it out. When teams are pressing high, having your keeper being able to function as another body in the backline helps massively with this, by circulating the ball and acting as both a pressure outlet and a way to draw in opposition you are realistically playing with a player short when it comes to this area if you have a keeper who is incapable of performing these functions.

 

[Oranges038]

Becoming more and more like an extra outfield player during build up.

Taking on sweeper roles, covering for back lines that push further and further up the field.

Perhaps more aggressive defending of high balls into the box, too.

You make it sound a bit like sweeping and ball-playing abilities are a bit trivial, but they are making a huge difference.

e.g.

Spoiler

Not trivialising them at all.

Sweeping has always been there. Maybe now as teams press higher and defend higher it's become more common for keepers to be cutting balls out outside the box. Starting position is more crucial now, but it's always been a keepers job.

Passing for me is the biggest one, you just can't have a keeper who can't pass anymore.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Neuer is probably the archetype.

Schmeichel is the archetype

 

[Oranges038]

DDG?

Quite frankly, I dislike his style the more i watch him. Think he should maybe consider moving to handball.

 

[avgp_1]

The spare man in buildup

 

[RDCR07]

Think Ederson is the perfect example of what managers expect a modern day keeper to be - a sweeper keeper per se. He is at the edge of the box when the defense is playing a high line so he gives himself a chance of clearing if the ball is played over the top. He doesn't panic when the teams are pressing him and his defense high up. He is good with the ball at his feet and he never panics and helps his team play out from the back and move the ball forward. If DDG played a sweeper keeper he could be better at preventing more chances at his goal.

 

[Kill3r7]

It’s the ability to be comfortable on the ball passing, distributing and playing out of the back. The elite GKs are great sweeper keepers essentially adding an additional defender on the pitch.

With respect to De Gea, Spain (NT) doesn’t have a great goalkeeper right now and De Gea is not even in the conversation even after having a good season last year.

 

[do.ob]

Not trivialising them at all.

Sweeping has always been there. Maybe now as teams press higher and defend higher it's become more common for keepers to be cutting balls out outside the box. Starting position is more crucial now, but it's always been a keepers job.

Passing for me is the biggest one, you just can't have a keeper who can't pass anymore.

I mean you can say that about everything: football wasn't reinvented, everything we're seeing now has been done before, to some degree.

But I don't think it was too long ago that pure "shot stopper" type goal keepers, who more or less stayed on their goal line were still considered good. I mean look at DDG as an example, he was frequently called best keeper in the world on here.

The difference is that what used to be seen as an eccentricity or even recklessness has become the norm.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

The spare man in buildup

 

[mu4c_20le]

Sounds like its just a sweeper keeper. Which is a role in video games for decades now. Not sure why its suddenly considered modern.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Schmeichel is the archetype

I don’t think so. Neuer took being a sweeper keeper to a whole new level.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Shot stopping, handling and keeping the ball out are secondary tbh.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Shot stopping, handling and keeping the ball out are secondary tbh.

Reminds me of when Pep signed that Bravo guy. Apparently amazing with the ball at his feet, but couldn't save a shot for months!

 

[sullydnl]

I would see traditional goalkeeping attributes as shot-stopping and cross claiming.

The more "modern" style involves a greater emphasis on sweeping (due to higher lines being more popular) and ability on the ball (because more is demanded of goalkeepers in that regard than before as well).

So when we say someone like De Gea isn't a modern keeper, that's only partly true. He certainly isn't particularly good at those traits that are more heavily emphasised for modern goalkeepers but one of his key weaknesses is also claiming, one of the traditional goalkeeping attributes.

 

[DanielofLeyland]

I think it's the ability to pass well under pressure. It wasn't too long ago that it would be unheard of to see keepers playing it to defenders to play it out.

The goalkeeping role has evolved due to differences in playing styles rather than anything else. You need a tight-knit team of passers at the back to get the ball to the receiving man in the middle of the park to move swiftly and beat the press.

The reason United fail at this isn't just down to De Gea but the fact we don't have players who, positionally speaking, put themselves into space or have the technique to move the ball around the oppositions press.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Not really the biggest fan of Peter Crouch, but his podcast with Aaron Ramsdale is great on this topic. Lots clicked for me after hearing him speak.

The realisation that Arteta and modern managers see the goalkeeper as a centre back more than a keeper was wild. He made the point so well. We still talk about a keeper ‘being good with his feet’. Pep, Klopp, Arteta have already moved onto a mindset that sees footballing ability as the dominant decision point. Obviously they want a shot stopper, but their teams are set up to control the ball. The keeper is one of the most important players in the team. Not just a last line of defence.

Highly recommend. Heavy on the 30 second skip button throughout as there’s lots of shite in there when Ramsdale isn’t talking.

 

[Acrobat7]

I don’t think so. Neuer took being a sweeper keeper to a whole new level.

A good example is Brentford's 4th goal yesterday. Neuer would have NEVER conceided that.
He would have been out of his goal and would have intercepted the pass. Or the Brentford player wouldn't even have tried that pass against Neuer. But de Gea is way back in his goal.

 

[izec]

The opposite of De Gea

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Reminds me of when Pep signed that Bravo guy. Apparently amazing with the ball at his feet, but couldn't save a shot for months!

People forget him because Ederson come in who, in reality, is pretty average at actual goalkeeping.

 

[Invictus]

What is a modern goalkeeper? How much has the job really changed? What is different now for a keeper than say 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 years ago or more?

Modern goalkeepers have always been around in an informal sense, even before the introduction of the back-pass rule in 1992. They were just not as refined, in vouge or ubiquitous in the upper echelons of the game — whereas you've recently seen Neuer, Alisson, Ederson, ter Stegen and co. in quick succession (with Neuer in particular playing a big part in the mainstreaming of modern goalkeeper characteristics and adding some coolness factor to the role). Amadeo Carrizo and Gyula Grosics were modern goalkeepers at heart...all the way back in the 1950s, and even at United you had two modern-era paragons in Edwin van der Sar (made everything look so simple because he was so technically accomplished and an extremely intelligent organizer) and Peter Schmeichel (a different type than Edwin, but proactive in his own inimitable way).

To understand the function you have to simply consider the evolution of football tactics in general, especially following the success of Guardiola/Barcelona/Spain and from an English perspective City/Liverpool (and the impact it had on others in a monkey see, monkey do way). Top teams and coaches increasingly want to play an intense and proactive high-possession and high-pressing style — many of them don't want to sit back and reactively strike on counters. That has led to a lot of interesting developments across the pitch. e.g., Center forwards are now expected to at least play a decent role in build-ups, and offer some playmaking ability of their own...and have to bring more to the table than just scoring goals. No matter how threatening a pure poacher is (like Inzaghi, for example), he is not going to hypothetically start for Guardiola at Manchester City or Klopp at Liverpool on a sustained basis.

Similarly, the fullback function entails more than just defending and overlapping, and the goalkeeping function entails more than just shot-stopping now. The wheel is not being reinvented because certain goalkeepers in the past could do those things, but top goalkeepers now are expected to act as the first line of attack (as the 11th outfield player) as well as the last line of defense, create triangles/rhombuses with the defense and midfield, have a keen sense for initiating attacking moves and maintaining attacking pressure, systematically recycle the ball, be press-resistant and nonchalant with the ball at their feet, and so forth — on top of shot-stopping, claiming the ball and commanding their area (as well as the defensive line), of course. It's extremely hard, if not impossible, to successfully implement a high-possession and high-pressing style if your goalkeeper doesn't offer most of those of qualities.

 

[Lux Thunder]

It is about distribution, both short and long, but positioning also. Football games developed in the way that managers and teams are more aware that most of the things happen without the ball as players individually have the ball at an average of between 60 and 90 seconds in 90 minutes.

Having that in mind teams are more eager to press opponent high and cause chaotic situations and disorganization in their half to get changes more easily as football is known as the game of mistakes - a team that makes fewer mistakes is having more chances to win, as we saw in yesterdays match. It is also worth mentioning one of the main hypotheses of modern football that is not completely true but more often brings success long-term - a team with more possession has a better chance to win a game. As for all things that happened in transitions, what you do with the ball is at the end what counts for the result.

That brings us to the keepers who our now essential in making numbers in the build-up play to beat that press. If you can play through opponents' press you are not just avoiding dangerous situations in front of your goal but you also taking out of play opposition players who commit to press. Also, as you move forward to the pitch and now we talking about the middle and final third, to squeeze space and maintain vertical compactness your defensive line would also move further forward. With having a high line it is extremely important that you have a keeper willing to take actions outside the penalty box and who will sweep the defensive line to prevent counter-attacking threats.

Also, that having said, it is not an unusual thing these days some managers prioritize distribution over shot stopping ability or pace over height when it comes to center backs.

 

[::sonny::]

Not this Karius vers. 2
Karius at United would still play

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[mu4c_20le]

not this clown again

 

[Lay]

Reminds me of when Pep signed that Bravo guy. Apparently amazing with the ball at his feet, but couldn't save a shot for months!

Haven’t seen Ederson make a save either

 

[wolvored]

I keep seeing this referenced any time there is a discussion around DDG. That he's not a modern goalkeeper.

If you take into account the basics of defensive organisation, making saves, claiming balls in the box, sweeping and distribution.

Aside from being more capable with the ball at their feet, not just booting it as far away as possible and being comfortable looking for and controlling and passing the ball around the box. How is a modern goalkeeper different to some of the greats from the not so distant past like Schmeichel and Kahn? Or even further back the likes of Banks or Zoff?

What is a modern goalkeeper? How much has the job really changed? What is different now for a keeper than say 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 years ago or more?

Schmeichel was a modern goalkeeper by definition. He commanded his box completely, his distribution by throwing was excellent and he led the decence.

De gea is none of those things good not great shotstopper, timid to come off his line and distribution poor. Add to that he is by a country mile the highest paid goalie in the world and you can see that the biggest problem is shifting him on.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

People forget him because Ederson come in who, in reality, is pretty average at actual goalkeeping.

Having Bravo allowed Pep to coach the entire team to do what he demanded. The scouts then found a better version of that player type for him.

We need to do exactly the same thing. We could find a goalkeeper that costs £10m to fill that role.

 

[Oranges038]

Modern goalkeepers have always been around in an informal sense, even before the introduction of the back-pass rule in 1992. They were just not as refined, in vouge or ubiquitous in the upper echelons of the game — whereas you've recently seen Neuer, Alisson, Ederson, ter Stegen and co. in quick succession (with Neuer in particular playing a big part in the mainstreaming of modern goalkeeper characteristics and adding some coolness factor to the role). Amadeo Carrizo and Gyula Grosics were modern goalkeepers at heart...all the way back in the 1950s, and even at United you had two modern-era paragons in Edwin van der Sar (made everything look so simple because he was so technically accomplished and an extremely intelligent organizer) and Peter Schmeichel (a different type than Edwin, but proactive in his own inimitable way).

To understand the function you have to simply consider the evolution of football tactics in general, especially following the success of Guardiola/Barcelona/Spain and from an English perspective City/Liverpool (and the impact it had on others in a monkey see, monkey do way). Top teams and coaches increasingly want to play an intense and proactive high-possession and high-pressing style — many of them don't want to sit back and reactively strike on counters. That has led to a lot of interesting developments across the pitch. e.g., Center forwards are now expected to at least play a decent role in build-ups, and offer some playmaking ability of their own...and have to bring more to the table than just scoring goals. No matter how threatening a pure poacher is (like Inzaghi, for example), he is not going to hypothetically start for Guardiola at Manchester City or Klopp at Liverpool on a sustained basis.

Similarly, the fullback function entails more than just defending and overlapping, and the goalkeeping function entails more than just shot-stopping now. The wheel is not being reinvented because certain goalkeepers in the past could do those things, but top goalkeepers now are expected to act as the first line of attack (as the 11th outfield player) as well as the last line of defense, create triangles/rhombuses with the defense and midfield, have a keen sense for initiating attacking moves and maintaining attacking pressure, systematically recycle the ball, be press-resistant and nonchalant with the ball at their feet, and so forth — on top of shot-stopping, claiming the ball and commanding their area (as well as the defensive line), of course. It's extremely hard, if not impossible, to successfully implement a high-possession and high-pressing style if your goalkeeper doesn't offer most of those of qualities.

Thanks.

I'm trying to understand what people mean when they say modern keeper. What do they see as being the vital traits of a modern keeper and how it differs from the older keepers. This helps a lot.

We have DDG who is reallly good at one thing, not very good at several of the traditional aspects and really not good at sweeping or passing the ball. It's easy to clip a 40 yard pass under no pressure, it's another thing having the composure and vision to play 10/20 yard passes through the lines when there is a preas against you.

If you take Nick Pope as an example, he's a great shot stopper, excellent under a high ball and good at sweeping. He's just ot very good at the short and mid range passing. Now, maybe he will get better at that under Howe, but he'll never reach the heights of Allison or Ederson.

There's nothing modern about claiming high balls into the box or sweeping. Sweeping i feel has become more predominant because of how tactics have evolved, teams press higher and defend higher. But the pivotal one is being an option on the ball to recycle possesion and being good on the ball. Before the back pass rule was abolished this was quite common, but the keeper would generally just punt it. Now, it's more tactical more with the view of shifting the ball around the pitch, holding possesion a building the play.

Unless you have a keeper who is good at this and also the traditonal aspects I don't think you can't play a game where you try and build possesion and progress out from the back. Which is why I think DDG needs to be one of the first for the chop. You can see in the last 2 games, the opposition just set the passing traps for him and he couldn't find a way through it and it caused an awful mess at the back.

 

[AndyRed1990]

Thanks.

I'm trying to understand what people mean when they say modern keeper. What do they see as being the vital traits of a modern keeper and how it differs from the older keepers. This helps a lot.

We have DDG who is reallly good at one thing, not very good at several of the traditional aspects and really not good at sweeping or passing the ball. It's easy to clip a 40 yard pass under no pressure, it's another thing having the composure and vision to play 10/20 yard passes through the lines when there is a preas against you.

If you take Nick Pope as an example, he's a great shot stopper, excellent under a high ball and good at sweeping. He's just ot very good at the short and mid range passing. Now, maybe he will get better at that under Howe, but he'll never reach the heights of Allison or Ederson.

There's nothing modern about claiming high balls into the box or sweeping. Sweeping i feel has become more predominant because of how tactics have evolved, teams press higher and defend higher. But the pivotal one is being an option on the ball to recycle possesion and being good on the ball. Before the back pass rule was abolished this was quite common, but the keeper would generally just punt it. Now, it's more tactical more with the view of shifting the ball around the pitch, holding possesion a building the play.

Unless you have a keeper who is good at this and also the traditonal aspects I don't think you can't play a game where you try and build possesion and progress out from the back. Which is why I think DDG needs to be one of the first for the chop. You can see in the last 2 games, the opposition just set the passing traps for him and he couldn't find a way through it and it caused an awful mess at the back.

My interpretation of a modern goalkeeper is someone who is comfortable receiving the ball to feet under pressure, and has the ability to distribute the ball with the range of an outfield player. In other words, don't smash the ball up field as soon as it comes to you - it's a waste of an opportunity. It essentially gives you the benefit of additional outfield player at the back and a goalkeeper, sort of like a 2in1 concept. I recall an interview with Pep Guardiola a few years back where he was talking about how much time the ball spends in the air in the Premier League and how you can't control the ball (or the game) whilst it's in the air; he wants it on the ground and under control and that often starts from the GK. You can see this put into context with the way he discarded Joe Hart and switched to Claudio Bravo, and then settled on Ederson. Also look at the Zack Steffan error in the FA Cup Final. It looks terrible, but he's clearly been coached to receive the ball like that and not kick it up field - it just looks terrible when it doesn't come off.

 

[Charles Miller]

Rene Higuita would be playing for City these days.

 

[Gandalf]

Wayne Hennessey

 

[SRB87]

I mean, wouldnt Neuer be the perfect example of a modern keeper? He was and still is world class and is good with the ball at his feet. His style of course is high risk but when it goes well, it was amazing. Bayern under Heynckes or Pep for example was a prime example of that. The entire formation changed due to Neuers ability to act as the last man/stopper or what ever you want to call it.

A lot of good keepers out there but I think Neuer just offered more than any of them overall.

 

[André Dominguez]

As said before, nowadays keepers need to have enough passing and ball control skills to help the team to playing out of pressure. If the goalkeeper knows how to control and pass, the opposition team will be outnumbered when pressing,

 

[Bestietom]

A sweeper keeper is the modern keeper these days.