[OrcaFat]

i’ve supported shaw since he joined and really wanted him to cement his place as a first choice left back for club and country. However, i have not seen him work hard (offensively or defensively) for a long time. What Malacia showed so far gives hope at least as compared to someone who’s been at the club for ages and still struggles for consistency

He’s had a tough 15 months or so. He was great before that but seemed to go right off track after the Euros. It is a mental thing with Shaw. He can’t focus. He can’t apply himself properly. Who knows why?

Where does he go from here? I think ETH is the perfect manager to make or break his career - he is uncompromising but fair which I think is what Shaw needs - he has to have the rocket up his backside and the arm around the shoulder at the same time. He’s 27 now, has at least 5 years left and some players just don’t click until their late 20s and that could be the case with Shaw. But he is walking a tightrope and I think if he doesn’t see the light under ETH, he never will.

What I would say is don’t give up on the lad. He can do it still. And nobody needs to worry - he’s not going to be getting any free passes whilst Malacia is in form.

 

[united for life]

He’s had a tough 15 months or so. He was great before that but seemed to go right off track after the Euros. It is a mental thing with Shaw. He can’t focus. He can’t apply himself properly. Who knows why?

Where does he go from here? I think ETH is the perfect manager to make or break his career - he is uncompromising but fair which I think is what Shaw needs - he has to have the rocket up his backside and the arm around the shoulder at the same time. He’s 27 now, has at least 5 years left and some players just don’t click until their late 20s and that could be the case with Shaw. But he is walking a tightrope and I think if he doesn’t see the light under ETH, he never will.

What I would say is don’t give up on the lad. He can do it still. And nobody needs to worry - he’s not going to be getting any free passes whilst Malacia is in form.

well said. Im just glad we got malacia at this stage. Telles offered nothing during shaw’s low performances. Malacia looks like a good player who can push shaw, if not take the spot from him. I hope shaw regains his shawberto carlos form, we need that, ETH has a lot to do

 

[BuzzKillington]

I think Shaw is technically the best left back we have. Unfortunately he’s piss weak mentally and to be honest he’s not the kind of character we need at the club. EtH seems like he prefers the stick rather than the carrot which isn’t a good approach for getting the best out of Shaw. I think he’ll leave by next summer and I think in some ways we’ll come to regret it.

I don’t rate Malacia. He’s reasonably priced for what he is, but he’s essentially a left sided version of AwB, all defence and nothing going forward. We’ll need to find a first choice left back when Shaw goes. Malacia will be a decent backup, nothing more.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Nah, for a season and change he was right up there with the best. He was much better than solid. Doesnt mean he's maintained anything like that form since but let's not rewrite history.

Being World Class isn’t a blip in a players career though. It’s a sign of how starved we’ve become of any tangible success as a club that people are acting as if 9 months in a 8 season career is something to judge a player on. Now that would be re-writing history.

We saw Shaw for circa 5 years prior to 20/21, & bar a brief run of games under LvG, we saw a player that was barely better than average. So much so Telles was bought in late in the transfer window when Shaw again started underwhelmingly, now in fairness to Shaw he saw off Telles with a fine purple patch, but again returned to type immediately after the plaudits came the following season. Being World Class, whatever that actually is, isn’t a run of form which is bookended by mediocrity.

Call it World Class or as I term it, a purple patch, the fact remains he’s hit those heights once in 8 years so the likelihood given the evidence we have in front of us is that it was an anomaly.

Let me explain. Even if someone has a world class ceiling but rarely ever reach that while their lowest bar is bad, then they are not truly fit for a title challenging side. In order for a top team to win you need your players to be good AND consistent.
Shaw has a very high ceiling but has reached that so rarely for us that he should be moved on. And while his best performances have been world class, most of his time at United has been consistently average to terrible.

Exactly.

Shaws ceiling is no more World Class than West Ham Lingard.

 

[OrcaFat]

Being World Class isn’t a blip in a players career though. It’s a sign of how starved we’ve become of any tangible success as a club that people are acting as if 9 months in a 8 season career is something to judge a player on. Now that would be re-writing history.

We saw Shaw for circa 5 years prior to 20/21, & bar a brief run of games under LvG, we saw a player that was barely better than average. So much so Telles was bought in late in the transfer window when Shaw again started underwhelmingly, now in fairness to Shaw he saw off Telles with a fine purple patch, but again returned to type immediately after the plaudits came the following season. Being World Class, whatever that actually is, isn’t a run of form which is bookended by mediocrity.

Call it World Class or as I term it, a purple patch, the fact remains he’s hit those heights once in 8 years so the likelihood given the evidence we have in front of us is that it was an anomaly.

Exactly.

Shaws ceiling is no more World Class than West Ham Lingard.

It’s obvious you don’t rate Shaw. It’s okay.

But to liken Lingard’s half a dozen game purple patch to Shaw’s season, where he was widely described as one of the best left backs in the world, a season which finished with Shaw being one of the players of the tournament at Euro 2020, is plain silly. It doesn’t help your argument at all. Just calling him fat and lazy is probably more persuasive.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It’s obvious you don’t rate Shaw. It’s okay.

But to liken Lingard’s half a dozen game purple patch to Shaw’s season, where he was widely described as one of the best left backs in the world, a season which finished with Shaw being one of the players of the tournament at Euro 2020, is plain silly. It doesn’t help your argument at all. Just calling him fat and lazy is probably more persuasive.

Being World Class isn’t a blip in a players career though. It’s a sign of how starved we’ve become of any tangible success as a club that people are acting as if 9 months in a 8 season career is something to judge a player on. Now that would be re-writing history.

We saw Shaw for circa 5 years prior to 20/21, & bar a brief run of games under LvG, we saw a player that was barely better than average. So much so Telles was bought in late in the transfer window when Shaw again started underwhelmingly, now in fairness to Shaw he saw off Telles with a fine purple patch, but again returned to type immediately after the plaudits came the following season. Being World Class, whatever that actually is, isn’t a run of form which is bookended by mediocrity.

Call it World Class or as I term it, a purple patch, the fact remains he’s hit those heights once in 8 years so the likelihood given the evidence we have in front of us is that it was an anomaly.

 

[iammemphis]

I think Shaw is technically the best left back we have. Unfortunately he’s piss weak mentally and to be honest he’s not the kind of character we need at the club. EtH seems like he prefers the stick rather than the carrot which isn’t a good approach for getting the best out of Shaw. I think he’ll leave by next summer and I think in some ways we’ll come to regret it.

I don’t rate Malacia. He’s reasonably priced for what he is, but he’s essentially a left sided version of AwB, all defence and nothing going forward. We’ll need to find a first choice left back when Shaw goes. Malacia will be a decent backup, nothing more.

Malacia is far and away more techincally capable than AwB. He makes intelligent runs both outside the winger and when playing an inverted role too. After 5 games or whatever i think he's looked like he has alot of potential.

 

[RedDevil@84]

The words world class being loosely used all over the thread. Looks like you just need to find a bit of good form to be called world class with operative words like "on his day" and "for a few games" being used to justify it.

 

[OrcaFat]

Yeah, @AFC NimbleThumb, you’re making some sensible points as well. It just doesn’t help to exaggerate.

 

[OrcaFat]

The words world class being loosely used all over the thread. Looks like you just need to find a bit of good form to be called world class with operative words like "on his day" and "for a few games" being used to justify it.

I’m not sure what the context of this is but with Shaw we’re talking about a whole season and an international tournament.

 

[liman]

Some people believe actually watching football games tells you more than stats. I'm not saying that stat is irrelevant but anyone who watched our games in 20/21 could see he was hugely important to our attack.

Can we stop glorifying covid season when we had record breaking amount of penalties, no fans in stadium hence less pressure, Chelsea had Lampard and Liverpool had tons of injuries ? We had better season than 20/21 though, which was 17/18 when we finished with higher point tally than 20/21 , in a normal season when we also beat every other 19 teams at least once including centurion city , under a manager who literally called Luke Shaw stupid and put him below Darmian in pecking order. Why don't we glorify that season instead when Luke Shaw barely took any part of it ?

In 17/18 we scored 68 goals conceded 28 goals
In 20/21 we scored 73 goals conceded 44 goals
So with Shaw "great" attacking contribution in his best ever season with best ever form , a world class LB according to some of you , with martial , rashford, bruno vibing and best manager post fergie ole's at wheel, we only scored 5 more goals compared to under a finished defensive dinosaur manager who thinks Shaw is stupid while conceded 16 goals more
Was it worth it ? Adding 5 more goals but conceding 16 more?
And like i said before , we won trophies when he was our benchwarmer, trophyless since then , which suggest that even in his top form , he is still not good enough for title winning team.
Luke Shaw world class period should be called purple patch. Because an actual world class player maintain that form for the majority of their career not just for few months ,his top level is purple patch. Lingard had his purple patch and so does Luke Shaw. We shouldn't rely on someone who needs to be in their purple patch to hit the top form.

The debate should be put to dead already, Shaw's time here is over , Malacia should play week in week out until we buy new LB to compete with. This is why british bias is real,ask yourself whether he would still be here if he was a foreigner. We already got rid of Telles immediately for performing just below expectations. By the way i think ETH is using Malacia as more defensive fullback and Dalot is more attacking so it's probably an order for Malacia to not overlap often.

 

[SmallCaine]

I’m not sure what the context of this is but with Shaw we’re talking about a whole season and an international tournament.

He has been here for 8 years now, if you were really good just 1/8 of the time and hot garbage or unavailable 7/8 of the time, you are not world class, you are useless and more of a liability considering what we are paying him.

 

[Pickle85]

Being World Class isn’t a blip in a players career though. It’s a sign of how starved we’ve become of any tangible success as a club that people are acting as if 9 months in a 8 season career is something to judge a player on. Now that would be re-writing history.

We saw Shaw for circa 5 years prior to 20/21, & bar a brief run of games under LvG, we saw a player that was barely better than average. So much so Telles was bought in late in the transfer window when Shaw again started underwhelmingly, now in fairness to Shaw he saw off Telles with a fine purple patch, but again returned to type immediately after the plaudits came the following season. Being World Class, whatever that actually is, isn’t a run of form which is bookended by mediocrity.

Call it World Class or as I term it, a purple patch, the fact remains he’s hit those heights once in 8 years so the likelihood given the evidence we have in front of us is that it was an anomaly.

Exactly.

Shaws ceiling is no more World Class than West Ham Lingard.

People do similarly with Martial. In fact, I'd argue that Shaw hit higher heights in that season in terms of ceiling and consistency than Tony has ever shown.

For what it's worth, I don't disagree that he's not a world class player. That much is obvious. I just don't think it makes sense to downplay one season in which he was excellent.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Malacia is far and away more techincally capable than AwB. He makes intelligent runs both outside the winger and when playing an inverted role too. After 5 games or whatever i think he's looked like he has alot of potential.

I hope you’re right, and this is the Shaw thread so I don’t want to derail it.

 

[Olecurls99]

Some pertinent Shaw stats against the top 5 leagues full backs over the past 2 years.

He's a brilliant attacking full back. 20-21 he became all round world class, but I don't know why you would want to get rid of a brilliant attacking full back.

21-22
Assists 85%
Expected assists 89%
Progressive passing distance 85%
Key passes 96%
Passes into final 3rd 80%
Shot creating actions 93%
Goal creating actions 87%
Progressive carrying distance 88%
Carries into final 3rd 94%

20-21
Assists 86%
Expected assists 91%
Progressive passing distance 89%
Key passes 98%
Passes into final 3rd 68%
Shot creating actions 98%
Goal creating actions 90%
Progressive carrying distance 97%
Carries into final 3rd 99%

 

[Chief123]

I don’t rate Malacia. He’s reasonably priced for what he is, but he’s essentially a left sided version of AwB, all defence and nothing going forward. We’ll need to find a first choice left back when Shaw goes. Malacia will be a decent backup, nothing more.

Malacia is nothing like AWB. Malacia on the ball is levels above AWB. It’s obvious he’s been instructed not to attack too often in the last few games due to the circumstances of the matches.

 

[Chief123]

Some pertinent Shaw stats against the top 5 leagues full backs over the past 2 years.

He's a brilliant attacking full back. 20-21 he became all round world class, but I don't know why you would want to get rid of a brilliant attacking full back.

21-22
Assists 85%
Expected assists 89%
Progressive passing distance 85%
Key passes 96%
Passes into final 3rd 80%
Shot creating actions 93%
Goal creating actions 87%
Progressive carrying distance 88%
Carries into final 3rd 94%

20-21
Assists 86%
Expected assists 91%
Progressive passing distance 89%
Key passes 98%
Passes into final 3rd 68%
Shot creating actions 98%
Goal creating actions 90%
Progressive carrying distance 97%
Carries into final 3rd 99%

The problem with these stats is it doesn’t highlight how lazy and poor his intensity is when he’s not in possession. We rarely see him getting back into position at speed and making good recovery tackles. Once he’s out of position the passage of play normally finishes with him still out of position.

He’s not been dropped due to his ability on the ball. He’s been dropped due to how poor he’s been without the ball.

 

[Andersonson]

I went from the Martial thread to this one. Apparently they are both world class. We're losing the plot on this forum. Seriously.

 

[Marwood]

It’s obvious you don’t rate Shaw. It’s okay.

But to liken Lingard’s half a dozen game purple patch to Shaw’s season, where he was widely described as one of the best left backs in the world, a season which finished with Shaw being one of the players of the tournament at Euro 2020, is plain silly. It doesn’t help your argument at all. Just calling him fat and lazy is probably more persuasive.

Was he great for the full season though?

Memory might be failing me here but he had a really great month of assists. Pretty much doubled his career assists or something in four week.

But I don't remember him being great in the final third all season.

Also did you watch his pre season this year? Harsh as they are, fat and lazy would be the words that come to mind after doinhg so. He looked awful, like it was catching up to him.

 

[Chief123]

I went from the Martial thread to this one. Apparently they are both world class. We're losing the plot on this forum. Seriously.

Wait until you see some of the posters in the Maguire thread.

 

[Andersonson]

Wait until you see some of the posters in the Maguire thread.

It's enough for today, I'll pass

 

[Pickle85]

I went from the Martial thread to this one. Apparently they are both world class. We're losing the plot on this forum. Seriously.

In fairness, I haven't seen anyone argue that shaw is currently world class. More that he had a season at that level.

 

[Chief123]

Was he great for the full season though?

Memory might be failing me here but he had a really great month of assists. Pretty much doubled his career assists or something in four week.

But I don't remember him being great in the final third all season.

Also did you watch his pre season this year? Harsh as they are, fat and lazy would be the words that come to mind after doinhg so. He looked awful, like it was catching up to him.

To be fair he was brilliant pretty much all season. There were some regarding him as the best left back in the world at the time. Even I got giddy by some of the hype. But it’s looking like that season was an anomaly because every other season has just been full of false promises.

 

[Bebestation]

To be fair he was brilliant pretty much all season. There were some regarding him as the best left back in the world at the time. Even I got giddy by some of the hype. But it’s looking like that season was an anomaly because every other season has just been full of false promises.

This is a fair assumption.

It’s all I see with Shaw; an anomaly of a single world class season.

All I want to find out is if he can do it again for Ten Hag - if not then Shaw’s is no use to us anymore.

 

[Marwood]

To be fair he was brilliant pretty much all season. There were some regarding him as the best left back in the world at the time. Even I got giddy by some of the hype. But it’s looking like that season was an anomaly because every other season has just been full of false promises.

Just had a quick look and by February he had one assist in the league. Now assist stats aren't everything obviously but for a player having his best season ever and being world class all season you'd probably expect more at that point.

He then got 4 assists in February. A real purple patch, especially for a full back.

 

[lifted]

To be fair he was brilliant pretty much all season. There were some regarding him as the best left back in the world at the time. Even I got giddy by some of the hype. But it’s looking like that season was an anomaly because every other season has just been full of false promises.

Also unsurprising that his best season came when there were no crowds.

 

[Chief123]

Just had a quick look and by February he had one assist in the league. Now assist stats aren't everything obviously but for a player having his best season ever and being world class all season you'd probably expect more at that point.

He then got 4 assists in February. A real purple patch, especially for a full back.

It wasn’t so much his assists that were the highlight. It was the fact we finally saw him and getting up and down the pitch. Defensively he was solid and hard to beat and attacking wise he was brilliant with his dribbling and pace. He was offering us a great outlet down the left hand side where on many occasions he was our only threat down that side as the forwards tucked in. But he wasn’t afraid to go past a man or take possession in difficult situations.

He was involved in a lot of our attacks and in the build ups without neccessarily being the one to assist.

He even continued that form into the Euros where even City and Liverpool fans were raving about him.

The last 2 seasons have been as if he pressed the factory reset button and returned to what he was before that brilliant season which was pretty much a bag of inconsistencies.

I am intrigued to see how he performs alongside Martinez though. He hasn’t played alongside him yet and I do think playing with him should inspire him to be more intense and energetic. He’s always played alongside Maguire previously who I don’t rate at all. I’m a strong believer a players performances are heavily influenced by those around them as well. If you play with good players, you play better.

I still have a glimmer of hope in Shaw and feel we can get more out of him if he plays with Martinez down the left side.

Malacia has been decent so far but I don’t think he would have had such good performances if he was playing alongside Maguire.

 

[Chief123]

Also unsurprising that his best season came when there were no crowds.

It seemed to be the case with most of our team. That’s why I never really rated our undefeated 20 odd games away because it was the same as playing at home.

That season we had a remarkable record of going behind nearly every game to then comeback and win. The seasons after we continued that but became unable to comeback anymore.

 

[RopersReturn]

According to Goldbridge, it’s strongly tipped that Shaw and AWB will both be gone in January with possibly Jones to follow. Maguire and Lindelöf will be used in the rotation for the foreseeable future. It’s perceived that the board wouldn’t allow Maguire to go for anything less than £60M which we’re certainly unlikely to achieve.

 

[OrcaFat]

Was he great for the full season though?

Memory might be failing me here but he had a really great month of assists. Pretty much doubled his career assists or something in four week.

But I don't remember him being great in the final third all season.

Also did you watch his pre season this year? Harsh as they are, fat and lazy would be the words that come to mind after doinhg so. He looked awful, like it was catching up to him.

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. There is something of an argument to say that he is overweight and doesn’t work hard enough.

That’s not acceptable at all but on the other hand it is a very solvable problem.

 

[lenny_1248]

He will be back to his best.

 

[Marwood]

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. There is something of an argument to say that he is overweight and doesn’t work hard enough.

That’s not acceptable at all but on the other hand it is a very solvable problem.

I'm not sure. If by Shaw's age a player hasn't grasped being fit and going 100% in games I'm not sure he ever will.

It's easier to install experience and know how in a player than it is to generate that internal motivation top level athletes need. Because that part is mainly on the player. You can't really coach hunger. Especially at 27.

If I had to gamble I'd say it will only get worse. Can easily see him going Newcastle, couple of years there, then dropping another level.

I've been a fan of his but pre season was the final straw for me. He looked awful and very much like the years of being in bad shape had started to eat away at his natural pace. He was getting done on the outside by wingers I'd never heard of.

If we're looking to sell players in a smart way from now on, Shaw would be the one to let go in January if possible. He'd fetch the most value relative to what we'd lose on the pitch.

 

[liman]

According to Goldbridge, it’s strongly tipped that Shaw and AWB will both be gone in January with possibly Jones to follow. Maguire and Lindelöf will be used in the rotation for the foreseeable future. It’s perceived that the board wouldn’t allow Maguire to go for anything less than £60M which we’re certainly unlikely to achieve.

Di Maria and Lukaku were considered as a flop by majority of this fanbase even though they contribute a respectable amount of G/A and we recoup almost all the fee we paid for them so in my books they were never a flop. It's player like Maguire and Shaw who are a flop. Guarantee we will struggle getting 30m for them combined.

Yes. I am a staunch Shaw fan. He is actually my favourite player. And I am convinced his ceiling is even higher than what he showed in his best season. But even I can’t ignore his drop off in form and his apparent decline is condition and attitude.

I’m not going to cling to the fantasy of him realising his potential. But I want to see him fight for his place and get the drive back - I think ETH is the man to help him do that but it might take until Xmas to find out. If he can’t get back into the team and show some form by then, I’ll understand if we sell him.

It’s baffling that he can’t get focused with the World Cup coming up. Possibly he is a bit scarred from the experience of losing in the Euros final.

A wise manager once said to a certain England midfielder who is now at besiktas that there are huge difference between a top player and top potential. Many players have a top potential ( example : ravel morrison , adnan januzaj ) but they don't automatically become top player without consistent work ethic and attitude both in and outside of the pitch. I think that's apply greatly for Shaw.

 

[OrcaFat]

This is a fair assumption.

It’s all I see with Shaw; an anomaly of a single world class season.

All I want to find out is if he can do it again for Ten Hag - if not then Shaw’s is no use to us anymore.

Yes. I am a staunch Shaw fan. He is actually my favourite player. And I am convinced his ceiling is even higher than what he showed in his best season. But even I can’t ignore his drop off in form and his apparent decline is condition and attitude.

I’m not going to cling to the fantasy of him realising his potential. But I want to see him fight for his place and get the drive back - I think ETH is the man to help him do that but it might take until Xmas to find out. If he can’t get back into the team and show some form by then, I’ll understand if we sell him.

It’s baffling that he can’t get focused with the World Cup coming up. Possibly he is a bit scarred from the experience of losing in the Euros final.

 

[OrcaFat]

I'm not sure. If by Shaw's age a player hasn't grasped being fit and going 100% in games I'm not sure he ever will.

It's easier to install experience and know how in a player than it is to generate that internal motivation top level athletes need. Because that part is mainly on the player. You can't really coach hunger. Especially at 27.

If I had to gamble I'd say it will only get worse. Can easily see him going Newcastle, couple of years there, then dropping another level.

I've been a fan of his but pre season was the final straw for me. He looked awful and very much like the years of being in bad shape had started to eat away at his natural pace. He was getting done on the outside by wingers I'd never heard of.

If we're looking to sell players in a smart way from now on, Shaw would be the one to let go in January if possible. He'd fetch the most value relative to what we'd lose on the pitch.

Yeah, maybe. I meant he can solve it (with help) more easily than you can make another player as talented as Shaw.

But I hear you. That’s why I say give him a few months under ETH and if there’s no improvement, cut him loose.

 

[Marwood]

According to Goldbridge, it’s strongly tipped that Shaw and AWB will both be gone in January with possibly Jones to follow. Maguire and Lindelöf will be used in the rotation for the foreseeable future. It’s perceived that the board wouldn’t allow Maguire to go for anything less than £60M which we’re certainly unlikely to achieve.

Doea feel like something is going on with the two of them. Like one foot is out the door. Possibly we're making it clear they have no future here. Can see it takes quite a push from the club to get these guys to give up the salary we provide.

 

[golden_blunder]

Where could Shaw go is the question? Chelsea?

 

[FootyGirl88]

Where could Shaw go is the question? Chelsea?

They have Chilwell and Cucurella, I doubt he would even make the bench at Chelsea.

 

[OrcaFat]

Where could Shaw go is the question? Chelsea?

Surely not. If we let him go it will be confirmation that he just hasn’t got it any more. I really don’t see any top half club taking a chance.

Malacia is not in the same class but he is easily keeping Shaw out by showing up and putting in a shift. Managers hate players who don’t row the boat (probably why Mou got so agitated by him), I don’t think many will fancy Shaw in his present incarnation.

 

[OrcaFat]

They have Chilwell and Cucurella, I doubt he would even make the bench at Chelsea.

“Good” Shaw is better than both of those guys. But we’re not selling “good” Shaw, we’re selling “bad” Shaw.