Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?

[Kopral Jono]

Pretty much every England side for the last 20 years (bar the last WC) has been hyped up beyond it’s abilities and failed to deliver. We’ve always lacked quality in the middle, or gone with inferior stat-padder players who are unable to control a game. I actually think we’re going to bottle it against Wales, reckon the Welsh will make this the game of their lives.

I find bolded to be a bit harsh. I feel the hype is real this time and Southgate is holding them back. England genuinely have a fantastic set of attackers this tournament that only the likes of Brazil and France could match. They're a bit lightweight in midfield i.e. a level below elite young Bellingham aside, but I personally rate Rice, Henderson and Phillips quite highly. Their current back four I don't see much of an issue, either. Maguire and Stones always perform for England and an in-form Shaw is a fantastic asset to have. Pickford is a far cry to the likes of Robinson or Green.

I will say that they were massively overrated during the Rooney years, though, so that would be from 2004 to 2014. In 2002 if they had beaten Brazil they probably would have gone all the way. It was a really good, well-drilled, side with great players in it (bar Danny fecking Mills).

 

[croadyman]

I find bolded to be a bit harsh. I feel the hype is real this time and Southgate is holding them back. England genuinely have a fantastic set of attackers this tournament that only the likes of Brazil and France could match. They're a bit lightweight in midfield i.e. a level below elite young Bellingham aside, but I personally rate Rice, Henderson and Phillips quite highly. Their current back four I don't see much of an issue, either. Maguire and Stones always perform for England and an in-form Shaw is a fantastic asset to have. Pickford is a far cry to the likes of Robinson or Green.

I will say that they were massively overrated during the Rooney years, though, so that would be from 2004 to 2014. In 2002 if they had beaten Brazil they probably would have gone all the way. It was a really good, well-drilled, side with great players in it (bar Danny fecking Mills).

They are crying out for creativity in midfield,yes Bellingham is a talent but still that technical regista in that area

 

[Zen86]

I find bolded to be a bit harsh. I feel the hype is real this time and Southgate is holding them back. England genuinely have a fantastic set of attackers this tournament that only the likes of Brazil and France could match. They're a bit lightweight in midfield i.e. a level below elite young Bellingham aside, but I personally rate Rice, Henderson and Phillips quite highly. Their current back four I don't see much of an issue, either. Maguire and Stones always perform for England and an in-form Shaw is a fantastic asset to have. Pickford is a far cry to the likes of Robinson or Green.

I will say that they were massively overrated during the Rooney years, though, so that would be from 2004 to 2014. In 2002 if they had beaten Brazil they probably would have gone all the way. It was a really good, well-drilled, side with great players in it (bar Danny fecking Mills).

We’ve got a decent squad. I’d describe them as solid more than anything but with all the usual England traits which are great for steamrolling smaller nations, yet always struggle against a team with any quality. Bellingham IMO is the latest in a long line of massively overrated England youngsters and Rice is limited. It’s a squad that lacks technique in key places, as most England squads in my lifetime have.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

They are crying out for creativity in midfield,yes Bellingham is a talent but still that technical regista in that area

I think they should just go full early Klopp/Liverpool style and let Bellingham run that Wijnaldum role. Give a midfield 3 of runners and try to win the ball back constantly instead of playing slow ponderous garbage

 

[croadyman]

I think they should just go full early Klopp/Liverpool style and let Bellingham run that Wijnaldum role. Give a midfield 3 of runners and try to win the ball back constantly instead of playing slow ponderous garbage

Interesting idea but how come this country seemingly can't produce these technical players

 

[LordSpud]

Southgate is absolutely terrible. I've noticed the change in perception to him is starting to change after the pitchside pundits last night were questioning how TAA or Foden couldnt get on, how Kane lasted 90 minutes (personally I'm of the opinion that hes not fit) and also stating that he definitely has his favourites regardless of how well they play.

He reminds me of Solksjaer in both the way he always picks certain players regardless of how they play and indeed the way he sets the team up to not concede first and then hopefully score 2nd. Ironically that first game against Iran was the first in many where it looked like we absolutely played on the front foot and we were clear.

Cannot wait for him to piss off before we regret and waste a great squad with shitloads of potential.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Southgate is absolutely terrible. I've noticed the change in perception to him is starting to change after the pitchside pundits last night were questioning how TAA or Foden couldnt get on, how Kane lasted 90 minutes (personally I'm of the opinion that hes not fit) and also stating that he definitely has his favourites regardless of how well they play.

He reminds me of Solksjaer in both the way he always picks certain players regardless of how they play and indeed the way he sets the team up to not concede first and then hopefully score 2nd. Ironically that first game against Iran was the first in many where it looked like we absolutely played on the front foot and we were clear.

Cannot wait for him to piss off before we regret and waste a great squad with shitloads of potential.

Completely agree with this.

He’s ALWAYS reminded me of Solskjaer, except with more sliminess and even less personality.

 

[nickm]

Don’t tell that to France v. Denmark happening right now. Also, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say I think your assessment is wrong: most quality sides try to play thrilling football. It is only the sides who suddenly find themselves elevated beyond their station - like Greece - who resort to mind-numbing tactics. England had flashes of brilliance in the Gazza years, and they weren’t half bad with Rooney and Beckham. This current crop is nowhere near as talented but nevertheless their talent is being squandered.

Then you need to read up on the criticism Deschamps has received for years, for over-caution despite having a fast, talented players. So no, it’s not the case that quality sides always play thrilling football.

 

[Bluelion7]

Yes. He lets petty things and favoritism determine his actual team makeup and strategies in-game. That alone should be a massive red flag.

A month ago people were talking about Mbappe like he was a petulant crybaby and the type of player that can destroy locker rooms.

So what does a manager do when the WC rolls around? You play him, because youre not a dumb a$$ like Southgate.

Not saying that players like Foden are Mbappe level, but I know our team, and our back line would have had a hellish time dealing with the creativity Foden brings in attack.

The WC is not the PL. Games are called differently, and teams are playing guys like Neymar and Griezmann in forward midfield roles to great effect.

The problem with giving him leeway due to results is that you are completely ignoring what your eyes tell you, and relying on a common fallacy ; the assumption that those results couldn’t have been even better with someone else in charge. You have a very talented group.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Southgate is absolutely terrible. I've noticed the change in perception to him is starting to change after the pitchside pundits last night were questioning how TAA or Foden couldnt get on, how Kane lasted 90 minutes (personally I'm of the opinion that hes not fit) and also stating that he definitely has his favourites regardless of how well they play.

He reminds me of Solksjaer in both the way he always picks certain players regardless of how they play and indeed the way he sets the team up to not concede first and then hopefully score 2nd. Ironically that first game against Iran was the first in many where it looked like we absolutely played on the front foot and we were clear.

Cannot wait for him to piss off before we regret and waste a great squad with shitloads of potential.

Great summary.

 

[Redfrog]

I find bolded to be a bit harsh. I feel the hype is real this time and Southgate is holding them back. England genuinely have a fantastic set of attackers this tournament that only the likes of Brazil and France could match. They're a bit lightweight in midfield i.e. a level below elite young Bellingham aside, but I personally rate Rice, Henderson and Phillips quite highly. Their current back four I don't see much of an issue, either. Maguire and Stones always perform for England and an in-form Shaw is a fantastic asset to have. Pickford is a far cry to the likes of Robinson or Green.

I will say that they were massively overrated during the Rooney years, though, so that would be from 2004 to 2014. In 2002 if they had beaten Brazil they probably would have gone all the way. It was a really good, well-drilled, side with great players in it (bar Danny fecking Mills).

Your attack is good but you are going too far saying that France are only matching it. You have a lot of good players, I agree. But I will take Mbappé and Dembelé above any of your players. They are a level above, especially Mbappé. And in Midfield and Defense France is better.
But England is good and can beat anyone on their day.

 

[norm87cro]

Semis in 18, won his nations league group against Spain and Croatia and he reached the final of the Euros in 21. Currently England have 4 points and are on top of their group.I would say that all the evidence indicates that in fact he is not a shit manager. Some of this threads are just plain silly. He made some bad decisions but he is the most succesful England manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and that is not an opinion but a fact.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Your attack is good but you are going too far saying that France are only matching it. You have a lot of good players, I agree. But I will take Mbappé and Dembelé above any of your players. They are a level above, especially Mbappé. And in Midfield and Defense France is better.
But England is good and can beat anyone on their day.

No, you're right. My bad. I didn't phrase that sentence well. What I meant to say is England's attacking talent is up there with the likes of Brazil and France with Brazil's arguably being the best and France's second. Not the other way around.

I'm not English nor am I an England fan, by the way. I've lived in England so I want them to do well but I'm saying this as an outsider looking in.

 

[Abraxas]

I don't know why people are saying the USA are shit to make a point. It's not necessary to be disrespectful to them. You can believe Southgate is underperforming in relation to his resources without going into exaggeration to make it seem worse. We got relegated in the Nation's League for Christ sake. He's been fecking up for a while.

USA are clearly a competent side. Well drilled, athletic, playing a modern style, players all at a high level in the club game. Not a massive attacking threat but that doesn't mean they're a roll over.

 

[Redfrog]

No, you're right. My bad. I didn't phrase that sentence well. What I meant to say is England's attacking talent is up there with the likes of Brazil and France with Brazil's arguably being the best and France's second. Not the other way around.

I'm not English nor am I an England fan, by the way. I've lived in England so I want them to do well but I'm saying this as an outsider looking in.

All right, England attack is really good anyway. But if I had to choose 3 players from this 3 teams, I will take, Mbappé, Neymar and Dembélé on talent, then Kane to play top of them.
Kane and Mbappé will kill it together as Mbappé will be a faster, more talented, more technical, clinical Son.

 

[NewDawnFades]

The draw with the US all but secured qualification, two games in. England just needed a clean sheet, they got it. They can now rotate the squad, rest Kane etc.

Southgate's England lost the World cup semis AET, Euro 2020 final on pens, now qualifying for the round of 16 comfortably in a third consecutive tournament with a game to spare and people still complain. He's the most successful England manager in 50 years and all you do is moan about him.

 

[Rood]

The draw with the US all but secured qualification, two games in. England just needed a clean sheet, they got it. They can now rotate the squad, rest Kane etc.

Southgate's England lost the World cup semis AET, Euro 2020 final on pens, now qualifying for the round of 16 comfortably in a third consecutive tournament with a game to spare and people still complain. He's the most successful England manager in 50 years and all you do is moan about him.

Will he do that? I doubt it

Maybe he'll rotate a couple of front players like Mount or Saka, Kane seems like he has to play every game though regardless of crap he's playing

 

[Wilt]

Semis in 18, won his nations league group against Spain and Croatia and he reached the final of the Euros in 21. Currently England have 4 points and are on top of their group.I would say that all the evidence indicates that in fact he is not a shit manager. Some of this threads are just plain silly. He made some bad decisions but he is the most succesful England manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and that is not an opinion but a fact.

Rubbish.
England have only won 1 of their last 8 games and that’s also a fact.

 

[The Purley King]

Interesting idea but how come this country seemingly can't produce these technical players

Foden isn’t a technical player?

 

[Pintu]

Rubbish.
England have only won 1 of their last 8 games and that’s also a fact.

Context. 6 of these were NL games of last summer. England never got into that competition. France (the title holders of the NL) were also quite poor in last summer's edition. France ended up doing enough to avoid relegation, but it shows you how hard it is to judge on these games.

 

[JPRouve]

Context. 6 of these were NL games of last summer. England never got into that competition. France (the title holders of the NL) were also quite poor in last summer's edition. France ended up doing enough to avoid relegation, but it shows you how hard it is to judge on these games.

France has been plagued with injuries, I don't think that they should be used as an example.

 

[Wilt]

Context. 6 of these were NL games of last summer. England never got into that competition. France (the title holders of the NL) were also quite poor in last summer's edition. France ended up doing enough to avoid relegation, but it shows you how hard it is to judge on these games.

Either way the fact this thread exists is proof he’s not good enough.

Bog average manager/yes man, gifted with an above average squad.

 

[norm87cro]

Rubbish.
England have only won 1 of their last 8 games and that’s also a fact.

Yes and thats because he wanted to experimate against Hungary and it back fired. The guy has a one bad campaign and suddenly his shite? England doesnt have such a strong midfield in comparison to the other top nations and he did a great job with the overlaping backs.

 

[Wilt]

Yes and thats because he wanted to experimate against Hungary and it back fired. The guy has a one bad campaign and suddenly his shite? England doesnt have such a strong midfield in comparison to the other top nations and he did a great job with the overlaping backs.

Not “suddenly shite” ….he’s always been shite.

Never won anything, never will (barring an extreme run of luck). England need a better manager.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Well, he got them to semi-final in 2018 which is England's best result apart from winning the WC back in 1966. Also last year went all the way to final of Euros and only lost on penalties, which is England's best result in that competition ever. I get why fans are frustrated but one day Southgate will leave his role and be proud of how he done. Especially if England can go far again on this tournament.

He had a favourable draw when we got to the final of the Euros.

 

[Bobade]

The draw with the US all but secured qualification, two games in. England just needed a clean sheet, they got it. They can now rotate the squad, rest Kane etc.

Southgate's England lost the World cup semis AET, Euro 2020 final on pens, now qualifying for the round of 16 comfortably in a third consecutive tournament with a game to spare and people still complain. He's the most successful England manager in 50 years and all you do is moan about him.

The common argument is that this team is so talented that they would have done better with a different manager, and that they achieved this in spite of Southgate. I'm not a fan of his football or tactics really, so I'm not sure where I stand on this , but I do strongly believe we have had more talented teams in the fairly recent past, whilst achieving much less.

 

[Bobade]

He had a favourable draw when we got to the final of the Euros.

This is another argument that makes little sense to me. It's a cup competition. You beat who you come up against, who also got there by their own merit.

 

[The Brown Bull]

I am both amazed and delighted by England’s mismanagement .In my opinion England have the attacking players to win if they were let off the leash .Southgate is not going to do that though. Strictly small time .

 

[ROFLUTION]

Probably a point in here somewhere but I also think England fans are aware that this team actually got to a WC semi final and a Euros final, and that if anything the quality of players is better now than either of those tournaments, particularly in the forward positions.

And yet England literally haven't won a single game against a credible opponent since the Euros, and have a manager who in spite of this sticks with the same out of form or under performing players, and doesn't seem to have a clue how he wants his team to play.

Its more a case that one win against Iran doesn't mask over 18 months of rubbish performances and directionless management.

The fact Sterling is still in the England team says it all to me. He was never that great to begin with and has been a passenger for absolutely ages. He's been forced to move clubs directly due to the fact that two players sat on the England bench are obviously better than him. It's not too much to ask that a person in charge of managing the players is able to recognise things like this and do his job properly.

it’s a nuanced response, but aye in a bit of perspective: the last tournaments before Gareth, you arguably had better players.

Sterling might be a (rent boy) passenger, but he delivered last time around and got you to the final. At one point the train will have its last stop, but i’ll see England go out before criticising. Every big team would be pleased by what england has already accomplished this WC.

 

[scottser]

Wales will beat England 4-0. Wales and Iran will progress and it will be Southgates last game as England manager.
Don't worry though, Stevie G gets the job and wins euro 24.

Trust me, I'm related to Mystic Meg.

 

[NoPace]

No. He appears to be shit, but he isn't. Happens with food sometimes.

 

[Red Pumpkin]

Been watching England since WC 98. England is better/progressed further under Southgate than they were under

Hoddle
Eriksson
Capello
Hodgson
Who else I'm forgetting.

And this with arguably both lesser players factually and lesser hyped players. He has to be doing something right. My guess is he has got the players working together and curtailed egos very well. Not afraid of opponents but seldom overconfident either.

 

[Jippy]

Either way the fact this thread exists is proof he’s not good enough.

Bog average manager/yes man, gifted with an above average squad.

Yeah sure it does. We've had threads variously calling for SAF's head when manager, claiming Anthony Le Tellec would be better than Ronaldo and that a very tall player balancing the ball on his head for 90 minutes could be a game-winning tactic.
This thread proves nothing. Southgate's conservatism does frustrate me though.

 

[Mindhunter]

Southgate is absolutely terrible. I've noticed the change in perception to him is starting to change after the pitchside pundits last night were questioning how TAA or Foden couldnt get on, how Kane lasted 90 minutes (personally I'm of the opinion that hes not fit) and also stating that he definitely has his favourites regardless of how well they play.

He reminds me of Solksjaer in both the way he always picks certain players regardless of how they play and indeed the way he sets the team up to not concede first and then hopefully score 2nd. Ironically that first game against Iran was the first in many where it looked like we absolutely played on the front foot and we were clear.

Cannot wait for him to piss off before we regret and waste a great squad with shitloads of potential.

This is spot on. The only difference being Solksjaer for all his faults produced some decent results day in day out in the PL and finished second which is an achievement in itself considering our post SAF record. I am willing to bet that Southgate would have been sacked after 10 games if he was given the United job.

 

[mav_9me]

Probably a point in here somewhere but I also think England fans are aware that this team actually got to a WC semi final and a Euros final, and that if anything the quality of players is better now than either of those tournaments, particularly in the forward positions.

And yet England literally haven't won a single game against a credible opponent since the Euros, and have a manager who in spite of this sticks with the same out of form or under performing players, and doesn't seem to have a clue how he wants his team to play.

Its more a case that one win against Iran doesn't mask over 18 months of rubbish performances and directionless management.

The fact Sterling is still in the England team says it all to me. He was never that great to begin with and has been a passenger for absolutely ages. He's been forced to move clubs directly due to the fact that two players sat on the England bench are obviously better than him. It's not too much to ask that a person in charge of managing the players is able to recognise things like this and do his job properly.

Great point. Could not agree more

It is not the US that are bad… they are decent indeed, because many players compete in Europe and know the game, they also run a lot. Therefore, if they exactly mirror the system of their oppos, you can’t expect to steamroll them like you did on naive Iran and will probably do on spent force Wales? It’s not rocket science.

Disingenuous strawman argument. Expecting to outplay USA is not the same as expecting to steamroll them.

man for man, absolutely.

Timothy Weah wouldn't get in a premier League team.

Pulisic simply isn't as good as basically any of the top 5 English attacking midfielders without even getting into the Foden debate

Tyler Adams wasn't good enough for -Leeds United-.

It's harder to compare the likes of Dest and McKennie, coming from other leagues as they do, but Josh Sargent came on for the United States, while England had Rashford on the bench, Sancho at home, etc etc. I think it's going to be incomparable what those players go on to achieve in their careers Vs their opponents last night.

But USA ran the game and battered England, and it wasn't because they played particularly well. England genuinely looked badly coached and lethargic. They looked like we did under Solskjaer, no drive to get forward whatsoever.

But as I said before Southgate is the sort of manager that will play for a 0-0 quite happily when it suits him, and has never and will never win a single thing in his career.

Practically guaranteed.

He’s a pragmatic manager who prefers to keep it safe and not take risks, but this England squad is also massively overrated. They’re not some superstar team being held back by the manager, just another set of overhyped English players which is pretty par for the course by now.

Doesn't have to be a superstar team. Clearly underachieving, with a major problem being an incompetent manager.

They were absolutely dreadful to watch. Way worse than the current crop. Two banks of four and hope Beckham puts in a set piece or Rooney/Owen does something.

Also included in their era (Beckham was injured for the tournament but was due to be in it) was the single worst game of football ever to take place, England vs Algeria.

They were bigger names, worse underachievers.

 

[Zen86]

Doesn't have to be a superstar team. Clearly underachieving, with a major problem being an incompetent manager.

How are we underachieving?

 

[fallengt]

Getting carried by easy draws, the only thing he seems to be good at.
It's Soutgate's special

 

[elmo]

This is spot on. The only difference being Solksjaer for all his faults produced some decent results day in day out in the PL and finished second which is an achievement in itself considering our post SAF record. I am willing to bet that Southgate would have been sacked after 10 games if he was given the United job.

He was helped by the rest of the top 4 being hit with injuries.

74 points would barely be enough to make it into the top 4 for most years, let alone finishing second.

 

[Ralph1386]

Completely agree with this.

He’s ALWAYS reminded me of Solskjaer, except with more sliminess and even less personality.

This. He’s basically another Ole.

 

[mav_9me]

How are we underachieving?

Performances on the pitch