Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?

[VP89]

Had this debate with @Dion and a couple others.

Best just to get a wider opinion here. Thought its best in the WC thread than anywhere else.

 

[Red Star One]

Not the worst, but if that’s a yes/no question, the answer is yes

 

[Idxomer]

Probably not but he's a terrible coach.

 

[TsuWave]

Yes, he’s shit

 

[Zoo]

Good statesman, poor manager.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Yep; he's basically a Gerrard or an Ole.

 

[Ajr]

He is not absolutely shit, as in he can set up a team that he does select however he is a bit shit and quite clueless at a) Picking players, and b) Having a brain

 

[VP89]

Yep; he's basically a Gerrard or an Ole.

Funnily enough that's what started the debate.
@Dion seems to think hes competent which I find astounding.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Funnily enough that's what started the debate.
@Dion seems to think hes competent which I find astounding.

I think England would do much better without him, if they hired a modern, progressive manager. Much like Ole, he'll have his defenders who will point to his 'achievements'.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Perfectly average manager, like middle of the Championship tier.

I saw Dion's posts btw and thought he was mainly trying to say that the standard of international managers tends to veer on the 'average' side generally. I don't think it's an outrageous point because the best managers overall tend to be active at club level not international level. It pays more, brings better rewards, and suits more ambitious, younger managers, etc.

In that area he could be considered competent. He's had his time with England and done okay. I'd like to see a change though after the world cup

 

[Dion]

Firstly, the argument originally was "is Southgate a shit England manager?", not "is Southgate a shit manager?"

Simply put if you're calling Southgate a shit England manager then you're calling a massive majority of the international managers shit. That's a shit rating system.

Southgate is tactically limited, negative, but clearly a very good man manager who keeps disparate groups of players unified during high pressure international tournaments. He's at worst gotten England to perform at an expected level for their talent pool, which is far more than most England managers do and far better than the vast majority of international managers.

He's not a shit international manager, just like Solskjaer wasn't a shit Man Utd manager. Limited, yes. Not the long term answer, yes. Probably far worse in any other setting, sure. Shit, no. If you're calling those people shit then you either operate on the most dullard binary system of people either being brilliant or terrible, or you have lots of tiers below shit... in which case you have issues with the English language.

 

[Camilo]

He's just a fanny dressing like someone idiots think looks successful. Crap footballer, crap manager.

 

[VP89]

Retitled the thread because @Dion wanted it to be clear we are referring to him as England manager.

Not that I think it changes much.

 

[VP89]

Perfectly average manager, like middle of the Championship tier.

I saw Dion's posts btw and thought he was mainly trying to say that the standard of international managers tends to veer on the 'average' side generally. I don't think it's an outrageous point because the best managers overall tend to be active at club level not international level. It pays more, brings better rewards, and suits more ambitious, younger managers, etc.

In that area he could be considered competent. He's had his time with England and done okay. I'd like to see a change though after the world cup

It started from me saying Southgate is an international equivalent of Ole. Both shit mangers.

Yes, the international stage has lesser managers but I wholly refute the idea that Southgate is relatively competent.

 

[Bestofthebest]

He’s about as good as England’s manager as he was at taking penalties.

 

[2 man midfield]

He does a good job of creating/keeping a happy camp, but generally I’d say England’s (near) success at the last two tournaments has been in spite of him rather than because of him. There’s a lot of talented players there.

 

[red woppit]

Southgate is a typical manager who plays with a system that becomes successful, and as long as he has good players within that system then he will get good results. The problem then is when they come up against a very good manager who can change their own system to cause problems for that team, then managers, like Southgate, cannot adapt their own teams to counteract that, as the European Championships final showed.

 

[Dion]

Retitled the thread because @Dion wanted it to be clear we are referring to him as England manager.

Not that I think it changes much.

It's still an (unironically) shit thread. You're still presenting people with a false binary choice of someone being shit or not shit, which people are going to default to "good" because not-something is such a vague concept to articulate. Anyone with anything negative to say about Southgate is then going to vote shit as if it's a binary choice.

If you actually cared about the result you'd have made a poll with something like the following options without a leading title

eg.

"How would you rate Southgate's tenure as England manager?"
1. Great
2. Very Good
3. Good
4. Average
5. Below average
6. Poor
7. Shit

Presented like that you'd give people an actual chance to express their feelings about it without forcing some childish binary shit/non-shit paradigm you seem to want to. This is actually the same psychological phenomenon that made arguing against Brexit so difficult in the referendum.

Not everything that isn't great has to be shit, that's not how the world works.

 

[Cloud7]

I wouldn’t say he’s crap, but he’s certainly no better than average and he is in my opinion wasting this generation of England players with his crap defensive football

 

[Abraxas]

He's clearly not a shit England manager. Nobody in recent times has taken them to anywhere except ignominy. In that respect he's got a few good bullet points for the CV in terms of tournament outcomes. So I'm not even sure you can say he's a shit international manager.

Is he a shit football manager in the wider context, i.e. outside the FA cocoon, and without the extraordinary luck he has had at times, and maybe beyond international football? I would say there is a stronger argument for that when you really get into some of the nuance around his style of play, the dangers of extrapolating what he's done in a particular environment where it was fairly low expectation and just about building "club England." And again, those draws.

 

[MUFC OK]

Good manager - poor coach. His record dictates that he’s certainly not been shit for England.

 

[tenpoless]

The exclamation mark wouldn't hide it.

 

[MUFC OK]

I wouldn’t say he’s crap, but he’s certainly no better than average and he is in my opinion wasting this generation of England players with his crap defensive football

A myth for me. Don’t think this group is especially exceptional. Kane, Foden probably the only two truly world class players there.

 

[AshRK]

I can't stand his boring style but anyone saying he has been shit for England is just not real with themselves. He has had a decent tenure. Euro finals and WC semis isn't shabby. Just like with Ole. Very limited manager but far from shit. You don't finish 2nd and 3rd and reach europa finals being shit. Average , yes but a shit United manager is just rewriting history.

 

[MUFC OK]

I can't stand his boring style but anyone saying he has been shit for England is just not real with themselves. He has had a decent tenure. Euro finals and WC semis isn't shabby. Just like with Ole. Very limited manager but far from shit. You don't finish 2nd and 3rd and reach europa finals being shit. Average , yes but a shit United manager is just rewriting history.

It’s been pretty sensational when you compare to every England manager post 1966. Blew the chance of a generation at the Euros. Fear it could be 20 years + until England get an opportunity like that again but Italy worthy winners.

England having some sort of incredible squad or golden generation is a myth for me. Fair play to him for how well he’s done.

 

[AndyMUFC]

The golden generation stuff is a myth anyway, we’ve got some good players but the overall team is so far off the top nations technically and that’s an English player issue rather than one he’s made.

I think he’s done a very good job, probably an average manager in the grand scheme of things but certainly not shit.

 

[Red the Bear]

I think he's shit like really really fecking shit but objectively he's been pretty decent, in fact aside from Bobby Robson who got really unlucky he's had the best results so make of that what you will.

 

[Buster15]

We will soon find out about Southgate won't we

 

[EtH]

He’s complete piss and a champion of tribalism.

 

[Bondi77]

If a manager takes a national side to the Final and semi final of the two biggest tournaments in football is classified as shit then it sets a very high benchmark for managers to not be called shit.

 

[Bobski]

Maybe not a great manager but he has got to the Semi and a final with a group that is much less talented than people pretend.

 

[dinostar77]

Put it this way when he leaves the england job would any top ten PL club hire him as manager? No.

 

[Walrus]

I liked when he came into the job and shifted on the old guard, put trust in a new younger generation of England players.

Unfortunately his tactics are far, far too defensive considering the attacking talent available to him. The squad will always be hamstrung by his defensive team selections and loyalty to his personal favourites. People say that he has done well in the last two tournaments - I say he has done what was expected with such a group of players. England were among the bookies favourites for the last WC and Euros, had we not progressed fairly late into them then it wouldve been an underachievement.

 

[AndySmith1990]

He's a mid to lower PL level manager at best. Once he leaves England he'll have no interest from any top club. He's predictable, cautious, plays it safe. He has no original ideas and nothing about him inspires. Just a typical bland English manager really

 

[RopersReturn]

We can appreciate being England manager isn’t easy but with such an array of talented players to choose from right now, I’m surprised how mentally rigid Southgate’s become. He’s the complete opposite to how any modern successful coach works, preferring not to rotate the squad or adjust tactics to suit the conditions of a game. It makes life a lot simpler for the opposition when they know who’ll be selected by default.

 

[NoPace]

It’s been pretty sensational when you compare to every England manager post 1966. Blew the chance of a generation at the Euros. Fear it could be 20 years + until England get an opportunity like that again but Italy worthy winners.

England having some sort of incredible squad or golden generation is a myth for me. Fair play to him for how well he’s done.

England's overall talent is incredible, but they're one of those countries where the talent is really poorly distributed. No #8 type midfielders like a Modric, Brozovic, Kimmich, Verrati, Koke, Gundogan or Eriksen who can run a game from there, no great CBs and the star striker doesn't seem to fit well with the wingers around him.

You could literally have England's 5 best #10s (Let's say Mount, Maddison, Grealish, Foden and Gallagher) or 5 best wingers (Let's say Sterling, Foden, Grealish, Saka, Bowen) swapped out for one of those above #8s or a top CB like Van Dijk, Varane (if healthy for a month), Lucas Hernandez or Lisandro or and the team would be better off even having to start say an Eze or Jack Harrison as a 10 or winger.

That happens in international football, and teams like Croatia post-Suker often have one bogey spot, but England have had 2 in their spine since the Terry/Rio/Campbell/King era at CB and in midfield for as long as I've been alive, despite having Paul Scholes and Gerrard (who sure was flawed as a #8, but you could make it work with the right setup, like he would have been pretty great for Germany, right?).

As for Southgate, it's probably what it seems. He's not a good manager but he's not totally incompetent or anything and he's gotten very good results. Like Ole for a while. Probably deserves a Championship job but not a Premiership one. As a Canadian, I wouldn't want him to replace Herdman when he inevitably leaves us for a bigger job.

I think in International Football stability is probably overrated. If I was the director of the FA I'd have called Tuchel the day after his firing even if it would have caused a shitstorm. Mount, James, Chilwell and Sterling is 4 current first choice players (maybe Shaw over Chilwell but it'll be about their form as they're both very up and down) who have worked with him and Chelsea's problem was forward play and you have Harry Kane so that might be half fixed right there.

 

[NoPace]

We can appreciate being England manager isn’t easy but with such an array of talented players to choose from right now, I’m surprised how mentally rigid Southgate’s become. He’s the complete opposite to how any modern successful coach works, preferring not to rotate the squad or adjust tactics to suit the conditions of a game. It makes life a lot simpler for the opposition when they know who’ll be selected by default.

If you can't imagine a manager making a sub and changing the formation 25-35 minutes in when the game is going really poorly for his team like Potter today, I don't know if you can be a good manager.

Even Klopp will come out for the 2nd half with Alexander-Arnold playing differently when they're on top but not creating enough.

Not sure I can picture Southgate starting out with 5 at the back during a quarter-final, it going really poorly but being 0-0 or 1-0 after 30 minutes and hauling off Kyle Walker to bring on Henderson and Mount and get 3 in midfield if they need it. If I'm wrong and overlook him doing this then ignore me, I smoke too much weed and forget things.

 

[CM]

Yes. He's a man manager who had the benefit of some very favourable draws in big tournaments. The tactics and quality of football on show is no better than a lot of previous England managers.

 

[elmo]

I think he’s a terrible manager but when it comes to international football luck is very important and he clearly has spades of it.

A better manager might have gotten better results for England, but I doubt they’ll get such an easy draw that England has had under Southgate.

 

[VP89]

I think he’s a terrible manager but when it comes to international football luck is very important and he clearly has spades of it.

A better manager might have gotten better results for England, but I doubt they’ll get such an easy draw that England has had under Southgate.

I feel this would bs the most accurate assessment of him