Most likely, this is just me speculating, it starts off as fans celebrating driving around etc and then there might be a spark / incident with a police officer. All it takes is one fool from either side to get things going.
Rioting Erupts in Europe
- Thread starter TheReligion
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Most likely, this is just me speculating, it starts off as fans celebrating driving around etc and then there might be a spark / incident with a police officer. All it takes is one fool from either side to get things going.
Ye sounds about right
I'm sure the vast majority are going out to celebrate peacefully
The thread title is pretty ridiculous anyway @TheReligion - some small scale disturbances in a few cities is hardly rioting across Europe
Also does seem to be particular problems in Belgium/Netherlands Vs reports of celebrations without issues from France/UK/Spain
I don't know why that is, I thought at first it's because Morocco beat Belgium but then they beat Spain too
No need to follow the media - You could change it !
I was at the airport in Malaga during the Spain vs Morocco penalty shootout. There were both sets of supporters present. It was a good atmosphere and not hostile at all.
Stereotypes & crime. I think in Belgium and Netherlands the predominant young minority group that get into issues with the police are from Moroccan background. This leads to police targeting Moroccan youths/young men, feelings of resentment and persecution from the Moroccan youths etc.
It’s kinda like the Black teen / young men situation in the U.K. On the one hand in some parts of the U.K. there are young black gangs (thou rapidly changing and becoming more diverse) doing madness, but the police stereotype all Black guys of a certain age and are extra heavy handed when any routine interaction doesn’t go as they want.
PS, I know there are gangs of all ethnicities in the U.K. But it is what it is in the U.K. the stereotype of gangs is linked to black gangs. While Liverpool might have White gangs, a minority of the majority will never affect the way police deal with the majority. But a minority of a minority will influence peoples perceptions. It’s lazy thinking, and cheap policing but a pattern that I’ve noticed repeats throughout the world, as we see in Belgium/Netherlands
None of that explains why problems in Belgium/Netherlands Vs UK/France/Spain
AFAIK it's predominantly Moroccan diaspora (with a sprinkling of other Arab nationality) celebrating victory in public in each case
It's young kids being arseholes, nothing more or nothing less imo. Two guys were arrested for inciting riots on social media in Antwerp, 16 years old. It's been criticized massively by the Moroccan community.
It's not even football related, it happens with other events too. Why here and in Holland and not in other countries, no idea.
It's not even football related, it happens with other events too. Why here and in Holland and not in other countries, no idea.
It does. Because the perception of the police to Moroccans, the social issues, history( events between police & Moroccans) etc basically the “dynamic” that apply to Belgium/Holland don’t apply in the U.K.
In France it’s Black African/Algerian who get a hard time, so if say it was Algeria or Senegal fans celebrating it could easily have gone wrong in France.
Gotta be honest, for any nationality to go driving around all night, beeping your horn and waving flags out your car sunroof, holding up traffic because your country win a last 16 footy match is fecking annoying and pathetic.
Put a flag up in your house window etc get rowdy on your own property, but to do it for hours in the streets of a different country is antagonist.
If Brits were doing it, to that extent in a foreign country (that isn’t hosting the WC) it’d rightly be called out as annoying and moronic.
Probably just me being a miserable cnut, but there you go.
Put a flag up in your house window etc get rowdy on your own property, but to do it for hours in the streets of a different country is antagonist.
If Brits were doing it, to that extent in a foreign country (that isn’t hosting the WC) it’d rightly be called out as annoying and moronic.
Probably just me being a miserable cnut, but there you go.
I kind of get what you are saying, not sure if it's actually true though
I don't really see how the police are going to be making differentiation between Moroccans or Algerians in France for example. neighbours where people look more or less the same, probably live in similar areas - in fact in all the videos I've seen of celebrations in Paris/London etc there are plenty of Algerian flags mixed in with the Moroccan in there
Yep!
I've seen videos of Morrocans making human chains in Brussels to stop those who were rioting.
We literally just elected a fascist!
It's all 'murrica's fault
For real: we non-english speakers hear them use the term in official capacity and assume it's the accurate, non-offensive term
Yup, happened in both Brussels and Antwerp. Moroccans also cleaned up after the rioters.
Of course they aren't all separatists, but if you aren't you are well used to not getting tangled up in nationalist nonsense. It's unlikely someone living in Barcelona is going to be uber Spanish and prone to reacting badly at Moroccans celebrating.
There are loads of Uber Spaniards in Barcelona; partly caused by Catalan independence.
I think people here are just less likely to fight and riot over football than in many other countries.
I can't imagine anyone rioting over football in South America either. It quite clearly has feck all to do with football.
I say this with the utmost respect.
I love Italy and Italians.
But there are some bad eggs over there, especially at the football.
What are the very clear and obvious answers?
Yeah, I'd like to hear them too.
Really?! Pretty sure there are bigger issues with hooligans, matches abandoned etc in South America than anywhere else in the world
But yes this does clearly go further than football; disenfranchised youth, immigrant communities etc
Edit: a quick Google throws up this for a start:
https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/14/sport/football/argentina-world-cup-celebration-clash/index.html
That's not rioting, it's vandalism. Thieves taking advantage of peaceful celebrations.
There will be fans clashing or similar cases of vandalism but not outright rioting over the outcome of a game of football. Maybe we have different takes on the nature and scale of what constitutes rioting, mind.
Migration is a very difficult and complex process and by not having a functioning concept to properly integrate migrants [short- mid- and longterm], states & migrants create parallel societies whose members are not able to identify with the country they're living in, resulting in frustration & a general feeling of alienation. This alienation very often leads to fear of the unknown, which leads to migrants alienate even further; it's a vicious circle from my experience. It's just like master Yoda said.
I imagine whats happened in some parts of Belgium/Netherlands is similar to whatever happened in Buenos Aires that day - started with celebrations and then some trouble makers ruined it
I think calling it rioting is sensationalist but I wasnt there so who knows
You mean that this didn't happen in France or Spain because those countries are better at integrating immigrants, then, or?
not necessarily, but I know that Belgium is pretty damn awful at it. Lived there. Didn’t surprise me a single bit. It’s their largest group with around half a million nationals with just 11,6 million inhabitants total.
to clarify: there’s studies that especially those with moroccan roots in the 2nd/3rd generation feel particularly disadvantaged in Belgium. It’s their way to express their frustration against what they deem responsible for their situation.
Where did you get that one from? The chance of anyone getting in trouble for celebrating are fairly slim, the black africans/algerians don't get a particularly hard time and there is no distinction made with moroccans or anyone.
I think several here have pointed out likely root causes
- 2 & 3 generation immigrants feel marginalized whether it's housing, jobs, profiling or even a place in the national team
- the "culprits" are young, majority 13-23 years old
- there has been condemnation within the community. Some "that have made it" feel their achievements get dragged down
I have seen the same scenario in a different country with different minorities. And while on the topic I've always been particularly intrigued by how France have managed to integrate young immigrants to their national team.
In France it's black - blanc - beur (black, white, north african) from north african Just Fontaine 1958 to Italian Platini and black Tigana in the 80's to this team today. Look at Belgiums team on the other hand or even Spains. They have a token blackie but the rest are snow white. Probably says something about opportunities afforded.
- 2 & 3 generation immigrants feel marginalized whether it's housing, jobs, profiling or even a place in the national team
- the "culprits" are young, majority 13-23 years old
- there has been condemnation within the community. Some "that have made it" feel their achievements get dragged down
I have seen the same scenario in a different country with different minorities. And while on the topic I've always been particularly intrigued by how France have managed to integrate young immigrants to their national team.
In France it's black - blanc - beur (black, white, north african) from north african Just Fontaine 1958 to Italian Platini and black Tigana in the 80's to this team today. Look at Belgiums team on the other hand or even Spains. They have a token blackie but the rest are snow white. Probably says something about opportunities afforded.
If the answer is clear and obvious then how is it not necessarily true that Spain and France are much better? A lot more Moroccans live there. As a % it's a bit lower, but when we're talking about parallell societies then that doesn't have to mean much.
Country's been so badly mismanaged for so long at all levels, this isn't surprising. This is what happens when 60 million people feel disenfranchised by their governemnt, don't trust their political class, struggle in their daily lives and to make ends meet. A populist comes along pointing a finger, promising to make things better and everybody believes it. Even when said populist is a well known fascist
I suggest you start reading a bit on the subject, just google a bit why it’s special in the Benelux states - very interesting read.
besides, no, it’s not „a bit lower“ as a %, there’s huge differences.
It's 1.7 % of France and 2.35 % of the Netherlands. Three times as many Moroccans living in France, if they are creating parallell societies then they're probably more concentrated in France.
I don't think there is a lack of opportunities to play and progress in football.
If there are few blacks, it will be because of the type of immigration.
so you’re basically saying it’s just a coincidence that these outbreaks take place in Belgium especially? Or why do you think that’s happened several times now? What’s your constructive take on this? @NotThatSoph
No, I just don't know of a clear and obvious answer, you do so I thought I'd ask. I also don't know why certain American cities gets trashed when their NFL teams win.
yeah, well, you don’t want to hear the clear and obvious answer, which is fine by me.
I heard you. Belgium and the Netherlands (and Philidelphia?) are uniquely bad at integrating immigrants.
really not true for Belgium - in fact at the last World Cup Belgium were actually saved from a loss to Japan by goals from 2 players of Moroccan origin (Fellaini and Chadli) plus the likes of Lukaku, Kompany, Batshuyi, witsel etc
Even Spain have a few nowadays but that is more recent
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