Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?

[Pink Moon]

Maybe they could have won on penaltis, just like they did later against Netherlands. It wouldn't be the first time they do that several times in a tournament (1990, 1993 come to mind). Or maybe whoever had replaced Messi between Higuaín/Agüero, Lavezzi and Palacio (or maybe Tevez or Icardi if Messi's injury would have been before the WC) would have been able to create a goal. When you are able to not concede when it matters (and that Sabella team excelled at it), your chances of progressing are always high.



Yes, I would call one assist in 4 knockout games (450 minutes total) an unremarkable performance. Which is why it's good that this years performance has been so much better.

As for your first point, you're countering a fact (Messi assisted the winning goal) with a hypothetical (they might've won on penalties/maybe his replacement would've did something). You can surely see how this isn't a good argument?

And for the second one, I disagree, because I don't judge performances based solely on goal contributions.

 

[elmo]

It’s Messi easily.

For all the goals Ronaldo scores, he doesn’t really make much impact in the actual tournaments for Portugal.

 

[Krakenzero]

So naming one player at the other end of the park means Messi "wasn't really that pivotal"?

Do you think they'd have reached the final if Messi had gotten injured in the groups?

for what it's worth, I thought Mascherano was excellent that tournament too.

I should probably remind you that you were the one that proposed the hypothetical exercise. So the "not very good argument" is on you.

Altough you're still in time to tell me how Messi's performance in 4 knockout 2014 WC matches in which he failed to score and assisted only once, is not unremarkable. I'm all ears.

 

[Pink Moon]

I should probably remind you that you were the one that proposed the hypothetical exercise. So the "not very good argument" is on you.

Altough you're still in time to tell me how Messi's performance in 4 knockout 2014 WC matches in which he failed to score and assisted only once, is not unremarkable. I'm all ears.

Yes, literally based off of facts and stats...

 

[Sky1981]

That's not really true. There's a very strong dent. There is no concensus on Maradona being the greatest of them all. I think Pele, Maradona and Messi are all considered up there with the likes of Cruyff, Ronaldo etc just outside.

Messi already without exaggerating at least 8x more trophy wise, 3x more goal wise, and maradonna still won because somehow he did it with Napoli and off course Argentina.

So.. i honestly think Messi should already past him objective wise.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

This, and not 2014, is what a 'best player in the world' performance actually looks like.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Messi already without exaggerating at least 8x more trophy wise, 3x more goal wise, and maradonna still won because somehow he did it with Napoli and off course Argentina.

So.. i honestly think Messi should already past him objective wise.

Different eras, Maradona winning 2 Serie As when Serie A was the best league in the world with Napoli was an incredible achievement, to put in perspective in their 100+ year history Napoli have only ever won two league titles.

 

[Swoobs]

Different eras, Maradona winning 2 Serie As when Serie A was the best league in the world with Napoli was an incredible achievement, to put in perspective in their 100+ year history Napoli have only ever won two league titles.

To put it in perspective, 2 years before Napoli won their first, Verona Hellas won their only Serie A too. A year after Napoli won their second, Sampdoria also won their only Serie A too.
Yes that was when it was the best league in the world, but when seeing both Verona Hellas and Sampdoria winning the same prize in the same period, is that really a heaven defying unique achievement?
Maradona’s international achievement is far higher than his club’s

 

[giorno]

To put it in perspective, 2 years before Napoli won their first, Verona Hellas won their only Serie A too. A year after Napoli won their second, Sampdoria also won their only Serie A too.
Yes that was when it was the best league in the world, but when seeing both Verona Hellas and Sampdoria winning the same prize in the same period, is that really a heaven defying unique achievement?
Maradona’s international achievement is far higher than his club’s

Yes. Hellas was lead by Elkjaer and won in a "down" year, with Roma fading and only juventus as a truly great side and them entirely focused on the EC. Sampdoria had Vialli and Mancini and made the EC final a year later. Napoli won titles over Platini's juventus focused on the league and Sacchi's milan and Trapattoni's inter(record-breaking the previous season)

That said, Napoli were a great side with Maradona, rather than a great side because of Maradona. They don't win without him of course, but he wasn't dragging around a Fulham

 

[11101]

What?!

Game winner vs. Bosnia, game winner vs. Iran, and two goals in a 3-2 victory vs. Nigeria in the group stage. I think he can take some credit for that.

Read those names. Argentina should be comfortably beating all those with or without Messi. Once past the cannon fodder he was average, there's no shame in admitting that. The performances then vs now, when he is a shadow of his peak, are night and day. A half retired Messi now is completely outplaying the peak 2014 version.

 

[Righteous Steps]

To put it in perspective, 2 years before Napoli won their first, Verona Hellas won their only Serie A too. A year after Napoli won their second, Sampdoria also won their only Serie A too.
Yes that was when it was the best league in the world, but when seeing both Verona Hellas and Sampdoria winning the same prize in the same period, is that really a heaven defying unique achievement?
Maradona’s international achievement is far higher than his club’s

Yes it’s a still a great achievement and they won two not one, also what players did Sampdoria have at the time they won the league? Mancini, Lombardo, Vialli, Vierchowood Cerezo they still had some great players and even made it to a European cup final in 92, they were a very good side of that time.

Messi won countless leagues with teams containing Xavi Iniesta Alves Ronaldinho Eto’o Pique Toure Busquets Alba and so on, still great achievements nevertheless.

 

[André Dominguez]

Different eras, Maradona winning 2 Serie As when Serie A was the best league in the world with Napoli was an incredible achievement, to put in perspective in their 100+ year history Napoli have only ever won two league titles.

Also, remember that Napoli had other great players like Careca, Alemão, Ferrara, De Napoli, Crippa, etc. No one wins anything alone.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Also, remember that Napoli had other great players like Careca, Alemão, Ferrara, De Napoli, Crippa, etc. No one wins anything alone.

Of course.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Those are very biased facts.

Exactly which one of those are biased? Of course you can’t name any.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Even that is very much debatable.

He had an insane impact on the latter stages of the tournament and launched himself as a phenomenon rarely seen (arguably never - before or later - in that exact form) in the world of football.

But in terms of the whole tournament?

If there's a consensus here * I'd say it's probably Didi - which is clearly fairer in terms of his influence on the team throughout the tournament (and not just the last couple of matches).

As for '70, I'd say that one belongs to Pelé - and clearly so.

Müller? Again with the numbers...Not that Müller wasn't a great player (he absolutely was), but it was Pelé who made that Brazil team come together. He was the most important cog in the machinery, his role was what made the whole thing click, and he played that role to perfection.

* Among football historians, at least.

Can’t argue much with ‘58 as Pele was clearly outstanding, even if you did not considered him the best, maybe still easily among top 2?

As for ‘70, again I’d say it’s his most iconic tournament. But the fact remained he has already past his peaks, and has produced far less goals than others, which makes it debatable. I don’t really buy the notion Brazil team needs Pele to make everything click. Even though Pele has been they key player, they have also dominated the WC over past decade, with or without Pele.

 

[That_Bloke]

Not comparing it with Ronaldo, but between Messi and Maradonna, Messi will never topped Maradonna without a heroic in the world cup final.

Truth be told it's unfair that Maradonna has made a meal out of that World Cup, he was to unfairly put on the pedestal even 800 goals don't seem to make a dent of Maradonna being number 1.

Again, that's all the magic of winning the world cup for your country.

I think that your Messi bias is getting in the way of your objectivity. Reducing Maradona to the WC 1986, even if no other player dominated that tournament as much as he did, is incredibly narrow-minded.

Goals are not everything in football.

 

[Swoobs]

Funny how this thread evolved from Messi vs Ronaldo to Messi vs Pele and Maradona, as it should have been in reality.

This thread should be closed or renamed to Messi vs Pele/Maradona instead

 

[Sky1981]

I think that your Messi bias is getting in the way of your objectivity. Reducing Maradona to the WC 1986, even if no other player dominated that tournament as much as he did, is incredibly narrow-minded.

Goals are not everything in football.

Yes. But 600 Goals is not nothing as well. And it's not like Messi is less talented than maradonna

Maradonna club career is ... Pathetic for someone considered GOAT. I know it's Napoli but it's serie A at the end of the day.

And just as my original point. Maradonna reached his Goat status because of of the world cup

And for the record I'm more of Ronaldo bias

 

[That_Bloke]

Yes. But 600 Goals is not nothing as well. And it's not like Messi is less talented than maradonna

Maradonna club career is ... Pathetic for someone considered GOAT. I know it's Napoli but it's serie A at the end of the day.

And just as my original point. Maradonna reached his Goat status because of of the world cup

And for the record I'm more of Ronaldo bias

This sentence alone tells me everything I need to know. No need to push this discussion any further, it would be a waste of time for both of us.

That explains a lot of things.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Yes. But 600 Goals is not nothing as well. And it's not like Messi is less talented than maradonna

Maradonna club career is ... Pathetic for someone considered GOAT. I know it's Napoli but it's serie A at the end of the day.

And just as my original point. Maradonna reached his Goat status because of of the world cup

And for the record I'm more of Ronaldo bias

I think career wise Messi is above Maradona long ago. But if I were to rank players based on their peak level on biggest stage, no one tops Maradona 86 WC - it was truly greatest performance of all time, and also on the biggest stage. I think this alone Maradona will always have his place in GOAT hall of fame.

Outside of his WC performance, he is still considered most talented player ever, even just based on his club career alone. Let’s not forget he never played for super club like Messi or Ronaldo does. Or let’s just put it this way, would Napoli won their only 2 Serie A titles with Messi instead of Maradona? No one knows for sure.

 

[genardk]

This sentence alone tells me everything I need to know. No need to push this discussion any further, it would be a waste of time for both of us.

That explains a lot of things.

It really is pathetic to an extent (for a GOAT contender)..

He did amazing things at Napoli winning 2 Serie A (especially against that super team AC Milan), but failed miserably in the European Champions Cup, the worst performing Italian team in that era as that was an era where Serie A teams have dominated every single European tournament comfortably.

Between 1988-1995, AC Milan played five CL finals, you would at least expect Maradona’s Napoli to play a SF, they could not even qualify for the QFs. Juventus, Roma and Sampdoria also played CL finals during that era. Napoli with Maradona could not even go beyond the second round in the CL. 7 years in Serie A playing for a dominant side that won 2 Serie As and winning only UEFA Cup is nothing to be proud of, I am sorry. This is a cup (UEFA Cup) where between 1988-1995, 10 out of 14 finalists were Italian teams. Even 2nd tier Italian teams like Torino, Roma, Fiorentina all played UEFA Cup finals during that period.

Also, right after he left Barca, Barca won La Liga after 12 years.

Finally, on the NT front, he was featured when Argentina lost to Uruguay in semis in 1987 at El Monumental in Buenos Aires in front of 75, 000 fans meaning he has his failures at the NT level too (if we ignore again this is a team sport as is frequently the case with Messi)..

 

[Pink Moon]

I think career wise Messi is above Maradona long ago. But if I were to rank players based on their peak level on biggest stage, no one tops Maradona 86 WC - it was truly greatest performance of all time, and also on the biggest stage. I think this alone Maradona will always have his place in GOAT hall of fame.

Outside of his WC performance, he is still considered most talented player ever, even just based on his club career alone. Let’s not forget he never played for super club like Messi or Ronaldo does. Or let’s just put it this way, would Napoli won their only 2 Serie A titles with Messi instead of Maradona? No one knows for sure.

By who?

Messi is clearly a superior talent. He can dribble as well as Maradona if not better, he is a better passer and he is clearly a better goalscorer.

 

[RedRonaldo]

By who?

Messi is clearly a superior talent. He can dribble as well as Maradona if not better, he is a better passer and he is clearly a better goalscorer.

By many.

Seriously Maradona are often regarded as most talented player ever by majority of football fans back in the old days. While Messi is more consistence in terms of execution and better in finishing, Maradona has this out of world level of dribbling, ball control, flair and imagination. The former 2 (dribbling, ball control), maybe Messi could match, but in terms of flair and imagination, not even the same level. But in terms of freekicks, passing, vision, they are probably at same level though.

 

[GatoLoco]

It really is pathetic to an extent (for a GOAT contender)..

He did amazing things at Napoli winning 2 Serie A (especially against that super team AC Milan), but failed miserably in the European Champions Cup, the worst performing Italian team in that era as that was an era where Serie A teams have dominated every single European tournament comfortably.

What is the European Champions Cup? Sounds like rugby or hockey to me.

Napoli finished 2 points away from relegation the season before Maradona arrived. That's the initial benchmark for you to consider.

Also, when Napoli won the UEFA Cup that was not the competition we know today. It was incredibly strong back at the time.

 

[That_Bloke]

It really is pathetic to an extent..

He did amazing things at Napoli winning 2 Serie A (especially against that super team AC Milan), but failed miserably in the European Champions Cup, the worst performing Italian team in that era as that was an era where Serie A teams have dominated every single European tournament comfortably.

Between 1988-1995, AC Milan played five CL finals, you would at least expect Maradona’s Napoli to play a SF, they could not even qualify for the QFs. Juventus, Roma and Sampdoria also played CL finals during that era. Napoli with Maradona could not even go beyond the second round in the CL. 7 years in Serie A playing for a dominant side that won 2 Serie As and winning only UEFA Cup is nothing to be proud of, I am sorry. This is a cup (UEFA Cup) where between 1988-1995, 10 out of 14 finalists were Italian teams. Even 2nd tier Italian teams like Torino, Roma, Fiorentina all played UEFA Cup finals during that period.

Also, right after he left Barca, Barca won La Liga after 12 years.

Finally, on the NT front, he was featured when Argentina lost to Uruguay in semis in 1987 at El Monumental in Buenos Aires in front of 75, 000 fans meaning he has his failures at the NT level too (if we ignore again this is a team sport as is frequently the case with Messi)..

It's really not.

Napoli really, really didn't dominate the Serie A at the time, even with Maradona. Juventus and Milan did, and good god, do you even know how the CL was played back then?

Only the league champion was allowed to enter the CL (then named European Cup), there were only ko rounds (2 legs) and if you went all the way to the final you'd play 9 games. This also means that he played the CL only twice. In 87-88, they got Real Madrid in their very first round which they lost 3-1 on aggregate, and then in 90-91 they met Spartak Moscow in the second round. The latter were no mugs at the time and Napoli lost in the penalty shoot-out, after Baroni missed a crucial one during the match in the second leg. So in the grand scheme of things, Maradona played a total of 6 fecking CL games in his whole career.

Cheap shot. He was badly injured and ill (hepatitis) during a good part of his second season at Barca. Since you like numbers, I'll give you some: 38 goals in 58 games as an attacking midfielder in a time where scoring was all but easy, a Copa Del Rey, a League Cup and the Spanish Supercup. Barca won la Liga the next season after Menotti left and Terry Venables came in. Doesn't change the fact that it wasn't really a successful stint for him there.

The problem with you stat boys is that numbers are what you live for and the hill you die on. You never pay attention to what lies behind them.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Yeah, right, getting directly involved in 5 out 7 goals Argentina scored, leading the tournament in most key chances created, passing accuracy, most successful dribbles, having highest performance average in the tournament

I asked you earlier for the source of all these stats. Are you going to post it?

 

[Real Name]

Hopefully this debate will be put to an end on Saturday by 6 pm.

 

[genardk]

What is the European Champions Cup? Sounds like rugby or hockey to me.

Napoli finished 2 points away from relegation the season before Maradona arrived. That's the initial benchmark for you to consider.

Also, when Napoli won the UEFA Cup that was not the competition we know today. It was incredibly strong back at the time.

What are you talking about, bro? Can you read?
Napoli failed miserably in European Cup (sorry for putting the wrong name above) as the Italian Champions (the top league in Europe at that time), do you have any objection to that? When all other Serie A winners like Milan, Juve, Roma, hell even Sampdoria plays the final and you go out in the 2nd round not once but twice, this is an embarrassment for an Italian champion..

Also, when Napoli won the UEFA Cup that was not the competition we know today. It was incredibly strong back at the time.

Yet, 10 out of 14 finalists were from Italy between 1988-1995. Italian teams were extremely dominant in that era. nothing special that an Italian team plays the final in UEFA Cup.. Italians dominance was the sole reason why it was so challenge to win it for teams outside Italy

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Hopefully this debate will be put to an end on Saturday by 6 pm.

By Modric finishing 3rd with Croatia? Final is on Sunday.

 

[Real Name]

By Modric finishing 3rd with Croatia? Final is on Sunday.

Ah yes, my mistake.
Sunday.

 

[Real Name]

Maradonna club career is ... Pathetic for someone considered GOAT. I know it's Napoli but it's serie A at the end of the day.

Are you aware how strong Serie A was back then?

Guess not.

 

[GatoLoco]

What are you talking about, bro? Can you read?
Napoli failed miserably in European Cup (sorry for putting the wrong name above) as the Italian Champions (the top league in Europe at that time), do you have any objection to that? When all other Serie A winners like Milan, Juve, Roma, hell even Sampdoria plays the final and you go out in the 2nd round not once but twice, this is an embarrassment for an Italian champion..



Yet, 10 out of 14 finalists were from Italy between 1988-1995. Italian teams were extremely dominant in that era. nothing special that an Italian team plays the final in UEFA Cup.. Italians dominance was the sole reason why it was so challenge to win it for teams outside Italy

Yes, I can read and see that you have omitted the key part where I speak about Napoli being 2 points away from relegation the season before Maradona arrives.

Can you name which players of that caliber joined clubs in those conditions in history. We will be able then to compare with more precision and see who is the really pathetic one there.

 

[genardk]

It's really not.

Napoli really, really didn't dominate the Serie A at the time, even with Maradona. Juventus and Milan did, and good god, do you even know how the CL back then?

Only the league champion was allowed to enter the CL (then named European Cup), there were only ko rounds (2 legs) and if you went all the way to the final you'd play 9 games. This means that he played the CL only twice. In 87-88, they got Real Madrid in their very first ko round which they lost 3-1 on aggregate, and then 90-91 where they met Spartak Moscow in the second round. The latter were no mugs at the time and Napoli lost in the penalty shoot-out, after Baroni missed a crucial one during the match in the second leg. In the grand scheme of things, Maradona played a grand total of 6 fecking CL games in his whole career.

Cheap shot. He was badly injured and ill (hepatitis) during a good part of his second season at Barca. Since you like numbers, I'll give you some: 38 goals in 58 games as an attacking midfielder in a time where scoring was all but easy, a Copa Del Rey, a League Cup and the Spanish Supercup. Barca won la Liga the next season after Menotti left and Terry Venables came in. Doesn't change the fact that it wasn't really a successful stint for him there.

That's the problem with you stat boys, numbers are what you live for and the hill you die on. You never pay attention to what lies behind them.

Copium is extreme on this one..

I do not care whether they met "the mighty" Spartak or Real, the guy just could not take his team (the Italian Champions, the best league at that time) to the European Cup finals, simple as that, not even beyond the 2nd round, the worst performing Italian team in European Cup at that period.. no need for excuses, detailed analysis, this happened, that happened..

The guy failed to leave his mark at his peak in European competitions at peak Napoli when Serie was at its peak, meaning they had enough talent to win it or at least make it to the final like other Italian teams, got it?

As for dominance, between 84-91, Napoli had 2 Serie A wins, finished Seria A as the 2nd twice, and 1 time 3rd.. Milan and Juventus on the other hand just won Serie A once between 84-91, so there goes your dominance argument. I would recommend that you do some research before posting..

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

leading the tournament in most key chances created, passing accuracy, most successful dribbles

I just looked up 2014 World cup on Whoscored. Messi was not even in the top 100 players for 'passing accuracy.' He had passing accuracy of 80%.

On Key Chances, Whoscored displays them per game. Shaquiri, De bruyne, Pjanic, and Muntari had higher key passes per game than Messi, who was tied with Yaya Toure. The main reason Messi has most key chances is because he played 3 more games than anyone in the top 10.

 

[2 man midfield]

Probably plays a part in why Ronaldo gives him shit whenever he can.

He has the thinnest skin of any professional footballer I’ve ever seen.

 

[That_Bloke]

Copium is extreme on this one..

I do not care whether they met "the mighty" Spartak or Real, the guy just could not take his team (the Italian Champions, the best league at that time) to the European Cup finals, simple as that, not even beyond the 2nd round, the worst performing Italian team in European Cup at that period.. no need for excuses, detailed analysis, this happened, that happened..

The guy failed to leave his mark at his peak in European competitions at peak Napoli when Serie was at its peak, meaning they had enough talent to win it or at least make it to the final like other Italian teams, got it?

As for dominance, between 84-91, Napoli had 2 Serie A wins, finished Seria A as the 2nd twice, and 1 time 3rd.. Milan and Juventus on the other hand just won Serie A once between 84-91, so there goes your dominance argument. I would recommend that you do some research before posting..

Sure mate, whatever you say.

 

[genardk]

I just looked up 2014 World cup on Whoscored. Messi was not even in the top 100 players for 'passing accuracy.'

On Key Chances, Whoscored displays them per game. Shaquiri, De bruyne, Pjanic, and Muntari had higher key passes per game than Messi, who was tied with Yaya Toure. The actual reason Messi has most key passes is because he played 3 more games than anyone in the top 10.

Bro, I really do not understand why you are trying so hard.. You seem to have trouble understanding even basic things like teams as progress in tournaments, it becomes way harder to score or assign a key assist, create a chance on average since they meet tougher teams.. see below. you're welcome!

"Messi created more chances than anybody at the 2014 World Cup and only Andrea Pirlo played as many through-balls. He gave us more – a lot more – completed dribbles than any other player with his tally of 46 taking him well clear of Robben’s 29."

https://www.skysports.com/football/...il-or-have-we-just-become-numb-to-his-genius#

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Bro, I really do not understand why you are trying so hard.. You seem to have trouble even understanding the basic things like teams progress in tournaments, it becomes way harder to score or assign a key assist, create chance since they meet tougher teams.. see below. you're welcome!

I don't have any trouble understanding what is actually happening here: that you are just reposting information from tweets or other forums without having any clue where the numbers actually come from or whether they are even real.

You said that Messi lead the tournament in passing accuracy. He was not even in the top 100. This is not a mistake that someone makes by looking at a table wrong.

 

[Righteous Steps]

By who?

Messi is clearly a superior talent. He can dribble as well as Maradona if not better, he is a better passer and he is clearly a better goalscorer.

He is not a better passer than Maradona.

 

[genardk]

I don't have any trouble understanding what is actually happening here: that you are just reposting information from tweets or other forums without having any clue where the numbers actually come from or whether they are even real.

You said that Messi lead the tournament in passing accuracy. He was not even in the top 100. This is not a mistake that someone makes by looking at a table wrong.

What are you talking about? I have just checked in my original post on Tuesday, there was no mention of passing accuracy, I wrongly put it there when I posted next time confusing it. Kudos to you for noticing it, bravo, great analytical mind, congratulations

Ignoring all other measures like chances created, successful dribbles, through balls etc. etc. and getting obsessed with this single thing since you could not refute any facts other than that, the guy is truly obsessed with Messi.. now go and analyze other posters' posts where they might have confused something..

I will make it easy for you..There is a poster above sayin Milan and Juve dominated Serie A when Maradona was at Napoli, which is factually wrong as Juve and Milan only won Serie A once between 84-91, now as a new task, you can go and analyze his post as a forum police and tell him he is engaged in suspicious behavior by posting non-factual information.. Unlike you, I always prefer to give the benefit of a doubt in such cases like most other posters.. thanks..