Hernandez - BFA
The Way to Fly
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2011
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- 17,357
One more win.
A team that can start Samuel, Mascherano, Messi, Di Maria, Higuain and Tevez isn't stacked?That team wasn't stacked, the team fans was subpar and Maxi Rodriguez was a legitimate starting option.
No, it's a good team but it's not stacked otherwise we may as well call any big nation stacked. I personally don't call Portugal with Pépé, Carvalho, Deco, Ronaldo, Nani, Moutinho, Tiago, Danny and many others stacked. In both cases we are talking about the second tier of national teams below actually stacked teams of that time which were Brazil, Germany and Spain.A team that can start Samuel, Mascherano, Messi, Di Maria, Higuain and Tevez isn't stacked?
Euro 2004 had Figo a former Balon d'Or winner, the 2006 team was great too. None of the teams had many slouches.A team that can start Samuel, Mascherano, Messi, Di Maria, Higuain and Tevez isn't stacked?
R16 teams from the 2010 WC:No, it's a good team but it's not stacked otherwise we may as well call any big nation stacked. I personally don't call Portugal with Pépé, Carvalho, Deco, Ronaldo, Nani, Moutinho, Tiago, Danny and many others stacked. In both cases we are talking about the second tier of national teams below actually stacked teams of that time which were Brazil, Germany and Spain.
I do agree with your point, apart from the Brazil example. I am not sure I would call a team playing Fred up front stacked.No, it's a good team but it's not stacked otherwise we may as well call any big nation stacked. I personally don't call Portugal with Pépé, Carvalho, Deco, Ronaldo, Nani, Moutinho, Tiago, Danny and many others stacked. In both cases we are talking about the second tier of national teams below actually stacked teams of that time which were Brazil, Germany and Spain.
I think he would have if he didn't get injured in 2014, 15 and 16I think Di Maria has a better international career than Cristiano.
and 22I think he would have if he didn't get injured in 2014, 15 and 16
A period is a bit more than a year. And that starting eleven for Argentina was really not good, it was basically a mix of has been, a few below average players and young players that would have their best years 2 to 4 years laters.R16 teams from the 2010 WC:
BRA Julio Cesar, Maicon, Lucio, Juan, Michel Bastos, Gilberto Silva, Dani Alves, Ramires, Kaka, Robinho, Luis Fabiano - Nilmar, Kleberson, Gilberto
ARG Romero, Otamendi, Demichelis, Burdisso, Heinze, Mascherano, Maxi Rodriguez, Di Maria, Messi, Higuain, Tevez - Veron, Jonas Gutierrez, Pastore
GER Neuer, Lahm, Friedrich, Mertesacker, Boateng, Schweinsteiger, Khedira, Ozil, Muller, Podolski, Klose - Trochowski, Gomez Kiessling
If we judge his performances, it's not wrong. Di Maria ended up being very good for Argentina when fit, in my opinion.I think Di Maria has a better international career than Cristiano.
I think you gotta ask yourself what happens if Messi or Modric is subbed in for Griezmann? They improve with Messi on sheer talent (and it's a team good enough for him to just play as a 10 since you lose some defensive quality but the other team is far more scared and defensive in midfield and at fullback with Messi dribbling) and I think just edge it and probably win a 2nd trophy with Modric, though Griezmann is 2 wins away from equalling that. So still just a bit of work to do. Also possible he hangs on for 2024, even if it's more likely as a sub, but they're not crawling with creative midfielders and their good ones are really young and not starting for their clubs yet I think.Griezmann has been as good as Messi and Modric IMO. Best player in 2016 when France got silver medal, best France's player in WC2018, and arguably best France's player in this competition. If France wins again, with him as the best player, he becomes the best player in international tournament post Xavi.
True I suppose it does all boil down to tribalism and a 'you against us', the point you made on hooliganism is also very valid, I just see the 'fans boys' bitching and whining on social media not actually causing people any physical harm (Although it did used to be a hooligan v hooligan thing and the general public sort of just got out the way, not that it makes it right of course). I think because social media is such a huge, everyday thing at the moment it's easy to identify as no matter the conversation or topic you will always get people bringing up one or both of the special two and just derailing the entire topic.But hasn't this more to do with tribalism than player worshipping? And tribalism for me is a very present problem in football, regardless of player or club fans. Some of the more tribal United fans in here are very hard to deal with since they lack any kind of objectivity when it comes to their club. They feel inclined to belittle rivals, take criticism personal and all that stuff (as a sidenote: I don't think this is unique to United in anyway, it's observable in all groups of football supporters, we just happen to be on a United board). It's basically the same behavior, just on another topic.
And to be honest, club fans have a history of behaving far worse than player fans out of tribalism - today but especially in the past with all the hooliganism. To date I haven't heard of Messi and Ronaldo ultras organizing brawls or something like that. So I think it is wrong to paint the "new, young generation of fans" as weirdos in contrast to their predecessors.
Don't get me wrong, it's great to allow yourself a bit of chilidishness at times and footbal is an excellent vehicle for that. But I don't think supporting players is a stick to beat people with. Especially not in times when very few clubs really compete for titles anymore and for many fans top football is something their own clubs will never participate in. Then following UCL football is more like following tennis or the NBA as a European fan - you have no affiliations and what's most interesting is the sport and the sport is personified by the athletes/coaches.
Unbelievable Jeff. This is almost like a battered house-wife returning to an abusive partner.As much as I’m anti-Ronaldo right now, I know the pain will eventually heal and 6-12 months down the line, the love for him will slowly come back.
Knowing that, I need Messi to lose on Sunday.
Argentina wasn't even getting out of their group without Messi in 2014.The 2014 World Cup Final is a bit misleading since Messi had little to do with them getting there, but this time he has been instrumental in reaching the final. He just needs the trophy to put the debate to bed. Euros trumped Copa America but World Cup trumps all.
He is judged the same way as any other forward/playmaker in the game, which is end product (goals/assists). Plus saying they weren't getting out of a group with Bosnia, Iran and Nigeria in which 4 points were enough is a bit much. He still had his merits and an overall good WC, but saying he carried the team to the final is just not real and diminishes what Mascherano, Romero, Garay, Demichelis, Biglia, Rojo, Zabaleta, Di María, Higuaín and others did to get there.Argentina wasn't even getting out of their group without Messi in 2014.
In terms of chances created, he created the most for any player in that Worldcup, yet he barely had little to do with them getting there? That's just a testament to how he's judged differently from any other player.
As for the debate, whether he wins or loses on Sunday, it has already been put to bed. Ronaldo has not done anything worth mentioning in a Worldcup.
What?!The 2014 World Cup Final is a bit misleading since Messi had little to do with them getting there, but this time he has been instrumental in reaching the final. He just needs the trophy to put the debate to bed. Euros trumped Copa America but World Cup trumps all.
Plus a Man of the match performance in the R16, against Switzerland, with a solo run to assist Di Maria and creating the most chances ever in a World Cup matchWhat?!
Game winner vs. Bosnia, game winner vs. Iran, and two goals in a 3-2 victory vs. Nigeria in the group stage. I think he can take some credit for that.
Yeah, right, getting directly involved in 5 out 7 goals Argentina scored, leading the tournament in most key chances created, passing accuracy, most successful dribbles, having highest performance average in the tournament, most MOTM awards etc. etc. had little impact on Argentina progressing to finals in 2014 WCThe 2014 World Cup Final is a bit misleading since Messi had little to do with them getting there, but this time he has been instrumental in reaching the final.
That makes Xavi, Iniesta, Modric less of a playmaker than Ronaldo or Gerd Muller type poachers that have better assist numbersHe is judged the same way as any other forward/playmaker in the game, which is end product (goals/assists).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlaymakerThat makes Xavi, Iniesta, Modric less of a playmaker than Ronaldo or Gerd Muller type poachers that have better assist numbers
Do you have any understanding of how a playmaker is evaluated?
You seem to be a big Messi fan, he probably is the best player ever or at the very least top 3 but you don't need to over compensation for when he was less than stellar, he wasn't really that pivotal in Argentina reaching the final back in 2014 outsider of the group stage.Yeah, right, getting directly involved in 5 out 7 goals Argentina scored, leading the tournament in most key chances created, passing accuracy, most successful dribbles, having highest performance average in the tournament, most MOTM awards etc. etc. had little impact on Argentina progressing to finals in 2014 WC
His contribution was so little that he was chosen as the MVP of that tournament..
So naming one player at the other end of the park means Messi "wasn't really that pivotal"?You seem to be a big Messi fan, he probably is the best player ever or at the very least top 3 but you don't need to over compensation for when he was less than stellar, he wasn't really that pivotal in Argentina reaching the final back in 2014 outsider of the group stage.
Mascherano was probability the more importance player back then and there's no shame in that.
Probably plays a part in why Ronaldo gives him shit whenever he can.
Didn't Modric and Kroos and Benzema and Marcelo basically win those champions league titles though?I think Ronaldo can lay claim to being the greatest Champions League player ever but other than that Messi pretty much beats him out by all metrics (Greatest goal scorer?). It's not a bad thing to come second to the greatest player ever as I personally rank him above Pele and Maradona, although I'm to young to have watched those players play.
Considering they didn't concede against neither Switzerland, Belgium nor Netherlands I'd say they had a decent chance, yes.So naming one player at the other end of the park means Messi "wasn't really that pivotal"?
Do you think they'd have reached the final if Messi had gotten injured in the groups?
for what it's worth, I thought Mascherano was excellent that tournament too.
In the very first group game? No, he was pivotal in getting them to knock-outs but after that he was pretty unremarkable, I'm not prescient so I won't know they would have made it without him but he didn't contribute much.So naming one player at the other end of the park means Messi "wasn't really that pivotal"?
Do you think they'd have reached the final if Messi had gotten injured in the groups?
for what it's worth, I thought Mascherano was excellent that tournament too.
He scored the winner in two of the group games and scored two goals in the other one.Considering they didn't concede against neither Switzerland, Belgium nor Netherlands I'd say they had a decent chance, yes.
"unremarkable" sums it up though, doesn't it? He's judged to a different standard than the rest.In the very first group game? No, he was pivotal in getting them to knock-outs but after that he was pretty unremarkable, I'm not prescient so I won't know they would have made it without him but he didn't contribute much.
I love messi but I have eyes, I saw those games and he didn't really perform well, that year was probably one of his more subpar years as he had mediocre (by his standards) club year as well.
That's certain true, it tends to happen if you're extraordinary."unremarkable" sums it up though, doesn't it? He's judged to a different standard than the rest.
Maybe they could have won on penaltis, just like they did later against Netherlands. It wouldn't be the first time they do that several times in a tournament (1990, 1993 come to mind). Or maybe whoever had replaced Messi between Higuaín/Agüero, Lavezzi and Palacio (or maybe Tevez or Icardi if Messi's injury would have been before the WC) would have been able to create a goal. When you are able to not concede when it matters (and that Sabella team excelled at it), your chances of progressing are always high.He scored the winner in two of the group games and scored two goals in the other one.
It's laughable that you can use them not conceding v Switzerland as an example of how they could excel without Messi when the only reason they even won that game was a wonderful assist by... Messi.
Yes, I would call one assist in 4 knockout games (450 minutes total) an unremarkable performance. Which is why it's good that this years performance has been so much better."unremarkable" sums it up though, doesn't it? He's judged to a different standard than the rest.
That's not really true. There's a very strong dent. There is no concensus on Maradona being the greatest of them all. I think Pele, Maradona and Messi are all considered up there with the likes of Cruyff, Ronaldo etc just outside.Not comparing it with Ronaldo, but between Messi and Maradonna, Messi will never topped Maradonna without a heroic in the world cup final.
Truth be told it's unfair that Maradonna has made a meal out of that World Cup, he was to unfairly put on the pedestal even 800 goals don't seem to make a dent of Maradonna being number 1.
Again, that's all the magic of winning the world cup for your country.