One more win.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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A team that can start Samuel, Mascherano, Messi, Di Maria, Higuain and Tevez isn't stacked?
It's not even close anymore.
No, it's a good team but it's not stacked otherwise we may as well call any big nation stacked. I personally don't call Portugal with Pépé, Carvalho, Deco, Ronaldo, Nani, Moutinho, Tiago, Danny and many others stacked. In both cases we are talking about the second tier of national teams below actually stacked teams of that time which were Brazil, Germany and Spain.
Euro 2004 had Figo a former Balon d'Or winner, the 2006 team was great too. None of the teams had many slouches.
I think its usually unfair to just say the line up and play a game on paper, it's never really been a team for Argentina or Portugal, its mostly been individuals with different ideas coming from different clubs.
Its why Germany won in 2014 being largely Bayern players, 2010 with Spain was largely Barca players.
It's also about a system not just players.
Portugal has had some terrific players in the past when Ronaldo has been to 5 WCs, the difference is Ronaldo has always been more of a finisher, not the creator.
If we strip away medals from this argument, who has had more stand out performances? probably Messi.
2 WC finals now, 4 Copa finals? that's impressive really.
And his performances are head and shoulders above Ronaldo
R16 teams from the 2010 WC:
BRA Julio Cesar, Maicon, Lucio, Juan, Michel Bastos, Gilberto Silva, Dani Alves, Ramires, Kaka, Robinho, Luis Fabiano - Nilmar, Kleberson, Gilberto
ARG Romero, Otamendi, Demichelis, Burdisso, Heinze, Mascherano, Maxi Rodriguez, Di Maria, Messi, Higuain, Tevez - Veron, Jonas Gutierrez, Pastore
GER Neuer, Lahm, Friedrich, Mertesacker, Boateng, Schweinsteiger, Khedira, Ozil, Muller, Podolski, Klose - Trochowski, Gomez Kiessling
I do agree with your point, apart from the Brazil example. I am not sure I would call a team playing Fred up front stacked.
Actually, I would argue that the current Brazil team is the first stacked side they had since 2006.
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I think Di Maria has a better international career than Cristiano.
I think he would have if he didn't get injured in 2014, 15 and 16
and 22
A period is a bit more than a year. And that starting eleven for Argentina was really not good, it was basically a mix of has been, a few below average players and young players that would have their best years 2 to 4 years laters.
If we judge his performances, it's not wrong. Di Maria ended up being very good for Argentina when fit, in my opinion.
I think you gotta ask yourself what happens if Messi or Modric is subbed in for Griezmann? They improve with Messi on sheer talent (and it's a team good enough for him to just play as a 10 since you lose some defensive quality but the other team is far more scared and defensive in midfield and at fullback with Messi dribbling) and I think just edge it and probably win a 2nd trophy with Modric, though Griezmann is 2 wins away from equalling that. So still just a bit of work to do. Also possible he hangs on for 2024, even if it's more likely as a sub, but they're not crawling with creative midfielders and their good ones are really young and not starting for their clubs yet I think.
Also to be fair I put him with Iniesta, Cristiano and Schweinsteiger, that feels closer to me, even though he's been wonderful. We're in the few days after he beat England with an incredible cross, might feel differently if Morocco shuts them down or Argentina beats them.
True I suppose it does all boil down to tribalism and a 'you against us', the point you made on hooliganism is also very valid, I just see the 'fans boys' bitching and whining on social media not actually causing people any physical harm (Although it did used to be a hooligan v hooligan thing and the general public sort of just got out the way, not that it makes it right of course). I think because social media is such a huge, everyday thing at the moment it's easy to identify as no matter the conversation or topic you will always get people bringing up one or both of the special two and just derailing the entire topic.
At least with supporters of clubs they tend to only get very subjective when the topic revolves around their club and / or players. You won't usually find a topic about Bayern v Atletico Madrid (For example) being derailed by a United fan, whereas I've seen countless posts by people cramming Ronaldo or Messi into a conversation where they don't belong, it just boggles my mind. But, as you say it's just a new age level of support and the whole celebrity worship that the world suffers from was bound to leak into football at some point
Pre-tournament, I think that Argentina stood a realistic chance of winning at least 3 of the last 5 World Cups, maybe 4 at a stretch. Obviously we can discount 2018. 2010 is the debatable one. I wasn’t expecting them to beat Germany and Spain back to back to reach the final, but I certainly rated their chances above Portugal’s at that tournament.
I think that Portugal stood a realistic chance of winning 1 of the last 5 World Cups. We can immediately discount 2010 and 2014 (would it have been a shock had they exited the group stage in 2010 instead of the Ivory Coast - I don’t think so). In 2006 I think getting to the semis was a nice achievement for them, but being in the semis and needing to beat France and Italy back to back to win the trophy, is still a long way from actually doing so. I’m pretty sure that ahead of the semis, they were rightly considered to be the biggest underdogs of the 4 teams (France were the clear betting favourites ahead of their SF). In 2018, it wasn’t an upset that they lost to Uruguay in the 2nd round (Uruguay were the marginal favourites pre-match), and they weren’t among the major ‘top tier’ contenders.
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure that Argentina had shorter odds than Portugal going into each of the last 5 World Cups. In 2006 for example, Portugal were ‘only’ the 9th favourites pre-tournament. Of course I’m not saying that bookmakers' odds should be treated gospel and there were numerous factors at play there (ahead of 2018 for example France were ‘only’ the 4th favourites when I thought they were the 1st or at worst 2nd favourites and certainly ahead of Spain), but it at least paints a picture.
That being said, I stress that not only do I think that this particular debate is finished for good with Messi clearly having had a better international career than Ronaldo (regardless of the outcome of Sunday's final), but the overall Messi vs. Ronaldo debate (setting aside arguments re whether there should have been a hotly contested debate in the first place) is also well and truly settled for good. I'd summarise that Ronaldo's legacy (of course superhuman and amazing) is more goals and stats dependent than Messi's. I think Messi clearly leads Ronaldo purely looking at stats. In terms of goals he has a better goals per game ratio and more non-penalty goals than Ronaldo before we look at assists, World Cup contributions especially in knockout stage games etc.. And looking beyond stats and factors that cannot be measured just by numbers which is very important, there's no question (well to me at least) that Messi is comfortably ahead per the 'eye test'. Also I can recall noticeably more games for club and country that Messi hasn't scored in but has still been the best player on the pitch, or at least excellent / instrumental, than Ronaldo.
I think that Portugal stood a realistic chance of winning 1 of the last 5 World Cups. We can immediately discount 2010 and 2014 (would it have been a shock had they exited the group stage in 2010 instead of the Ivory Coast - I don’t think so). In 2006 I think getting to the semis was a nice achievement for them, but being in the semis and needing to beat France and Italy back to back to win the trophy, is still a long way from actually doing so. I’m pretty sure that ahead of the semis, they were rightly considered to be the biggest underdogs of the 4 teams (France were the clear betting favourites ahead of their SF). In 2018, it wasn’t an upset that they lost to Uruguay in the 2nd round (Uruguay were the marginal favourites pre-match), and they weren’t among the major ‘top tier’ contenders.
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure that Argentina had shorter odds than Portugal going into each of the last 5 World Cups. In 2006 for example, Portugal were ‘only’ the 9th favourites pre-tournament. Of course I’m not saying that bookmakers' odds should be treated gospel and there were numerous factors at play there (ahead of 2018 for example France were ‘only’ the 4th favourites when I thought they were the 1st or at worst 2nd favourites and certainly ahead of Spain), but it at least paints a picture.
That being said, I stress that not only do I think that this particular debate is finished for good with Messi clearly having had a better international career than Ronaldo (regardless of the outcome of Sunday's final), but the overall Messi vs. Ronaldo debate (setting aside arguments re whether there should have been a hotly contested debate in the first place) is also well and truly settled for good. I'd summarise that Ronaldo's legacy (of course superhuman and amazing) is more goals and stats dependent than Messi's. I think Messi clearly leads Ronaldo purely looking at stats. In terms of goals he has a better goals per game ratio and more non-penalty goals than Ronaldo before we look at assists, World Cup contributions especially in knockout stage games etc.. And looking beyond stats and factors that cannot be measured just by numbers which is very important, there's no question (well to me at least) that Messi is comfortably ahead per the 'eye test'. Also I can recall noticeably more games for club and country that Messi hasn't scored in but has still been the best player on the pitch, or at least excellent / instrumental, than Ronaldo.
I think Ronaldo can lay claim to being the greatest Champions League player ever but other than that Messi pretty much beats him out by all metrics (Greatest goal scorer?). It's not a bad thing to come second to the greatest player ever as I personally rank him above Pele and Maradona, although I'm to young to have watched those players play.
As much as I’m anti-Ronaldo right now, I know the pain will eventually heal and 6-12 months down the line, the love for him will slowly come back.
Knowing that, I need Messi to lose on Sunday.
Knowing that, I need Messi to lose on Sunday.
Unbelievable Jeff. This is almost like a battered house-wife returning to an abusive partner.
The 2014 World Cup Final is a bit misleading since Messi had little to do with them getting there, but this time he has been instrumental in reaching the final. He just needs the trophy to put the debate to bed. Euros trumped Copa America but World Cup trumps all.
Argentina wasn't even getting out of their group without Messi in 2014.
In terms of chances created, he created the most for any player in that Worldcup, yet he barely had little to do with them getting there? That's just a testament to how he's judged differently from any other player.
As for the debate, whether he wins or loses on Sunday, it has already been put to bed. Ronaldo has not done anything worth mentioning in a Worldcup.
He is judged the same way as any other forward/playmaker in the game, which is end product (goals/assists). Plus saying they weren't getting out of a group with Bosnia, Iran and Nigeria in which 4 points were enough is a bit much. He still had his merits and an overall good WC, but saying he carried the team to the final is just not real and diminishes what Mascherano, Romero, Garay, Demichelis, Biglia, Rojo, Zabaleta, Di María, Higuaín and others did to get there.
What?!
Game winner vs. Bosnia, game winner vs. Iran, and two goals in a 3-2 victory vs. Nigeria in the group stage. I think he can take some credit for that.
Plus a Man of the match performance in the R16, against Switzerland, with a solo run to assist Di Maria and creating the most chances ever in a World Cup match
6 of Argentinas 8 goals in the WC were from Messi goals/assists. He won most MoM awards in that tournament, so to say he had little to do with them getting to the final is crazy.
I think some people underrated his 2014 performances because they were comparing it to 2010-2012 Messi who was a freak of nature and no one else at their peak has ever reached or will ever likely reach that level. Yet that 2014 performance is still better than what others of his generation have ever produced on an international stage.
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Yeah, right, getting directly involved in 5 out 7 goals Argentina scored, leading the tournament in most key chances created, passing accuracy, most successful dribbles, having highest performance average in the tournament, most MOTM awards etc. etc. had little impact on Argentina progressing to finals in 2014 WC
His contribution was so little that he was chosen as the MVP of that tournament..
That makes Xavi, Iniesta, Modric less of a playmaker than Ronaldo or Gerd Muller type poachers that have better assist numbers
Do you have any understanding of how a playmaker is evaluated?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlaymakerThat makes Xavi, Iniesta, Modric less of a playmaker than Ronaldo or Gerd Muller type poachers that have better assist numbers
Do you have any understanding of how a playmaker is evaluated?
Feel free to elaborate on the matter as you seem to know so much.
You seem to be a big Messi fan, he probably is the best player ever or at the very least top 3 but you don't need to over compensation for when he was less than stellar, he wasn't really that pivotal in Argentina reaching the final back in 2014 outsider of the group stage.Yeah, right, getting directly involved in 5 out 7 goals Argentina scored, leading the tournament in most key chances created, passing accuracy, most successful dribbles, having highest performance average in the tournament, most MOTM awards etc. etc. had little impact on Argentina progressing to finals in 2014 WC
His contribution was so little that he was chosen as the MVP of that tournament..
Mascherano was probability the more importance player back then and there's no shame in that.
So naming one player at the other end of the park means Messi "wasn't really that pivotal"?
Do you think they'd have reached the final if Messi had gotten injured in the groups?
for what it's worth, I thought Mascherano was excellent that tournament too.
Probably plays a part in why Ronaldo gives him shit whenever he can.
Wonder how many of those who mention Mascherano actually watched the Argentina games.
Didn't Modric and Kroos and Benzema and Marcelo basically win those champions league titles though?
Two of Cristiano's former teammates have gone on to win the Balon d'or without him. It speaks volumes. Ronaldo was basically the poster boy for an incredible Real Madrid team. When you factor out Perez's PR machine, he shouldn't even have up to 5 Balon d'or.
Talent wise, I'd rank the Argentina teams like this:
2010 > 2006 > 2022 = 2014 > 2018
2010 > 2006 > 2022 = 2014 > 2018
Considering they didn't concede against neither Switzerland, Belgium nor Netherlands I'd say they had a decent chance, yes.
In the very first group game? No, he was pivotal in getting them to knock-outs but after that he was pretty unremarkable, I'm not prescient so I won't know they would have made it without him but he didn't contribute much.
I love messi but I have eyes, I saw those games and he didn't really perform well, that year was probably one of his more subpar years as he had mediocre (by his standards) club year as well.
He scored the winner in two of the group games and scored two goals in the other one.
It's laughable that you can use them not conceding v Switzerland as an example of how they could excel without Messi when the only reason they even won that game was a wonderful assist by... Messi.
"unremarkable" sums it up though, doesn't it? He's judged to a different standard than the rest.
That's certain true, it tends to happen if you're extraordinary.
Maybe they could have won on penaltis, just like they did later against Netherlands. It wouldn't be the first time they do that several times in a tournament (1990, 1993 come to mind). Or maybe whoever had replaced Messi between Higuaín/Agüero, Lavezzi and Palacio (or maybe Tevez or Icardi if Messi's injury would have been before the WC) would have been able to create a goal. When you are able to not concede when it matters (and that Sabella team excelled at it), your chances of progressing are always high.He scored the winner in two of the group games and scored two goals in the other one.
It's laughable that you can use them not conceding v Switzerland as an example of how they could excel without Messi when the only reason they even won that game was a wonderful assist by... Messi.
Yes, I would call one assist in 4 knockout games (450 minutes total) an unremarkable performance. Which is why it's good that this years performance has been so much better.
That's not really true. There's a very strong dent. There is no concensus on Maradona being the greatest of them all. I think Pele, Maradona and Messi are all considered up there with the likes of Cruyff, Ronaldo etc just outside.