Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?

[NoPace]

I think Xavi is #1 for the era (post 2006, end of Zizou and Ronaldo and Ronaldhino and last tournament before Spain started winning it) and then Messi, Modric fighting for #2 but with Xavi in tier 1, and Cristiano, Schweinsteiger, Iniesta, Ramos, Robben, Klose, Griezmann and I'm probably forgetting someone else. Pogba, whose career with France has been underrated, goes in tier 3 with Mbappe (he'll jump up at least one tier) and now Varane.

Tough to not have Messi #1 but I think at gunpoint Spain with Messi would have probably won 2 titles and certainly not 3 in a row with less control of games and their fullbacks, keeper and Busquets being somewhat susceptible on the counter.

 

[genardk]

Right you are. Robben, James, Neuer, Mascherano. Kroos did alright but it was Schweinsteiger post 1/16 that did the work, especially in that final. Just for that performance alone I'd crown him player of the tournament.

Otherwise Mascherano would be very deserving if they had won. Javier played great and he was "el jefe", the boss, for that Argentina on and off the pitch. Same role that Veron had in 2010 who was their best player in that WC and before that Riquelme was the main star 2006 together with Maxi Rodriguez.

And also as you say Messi was not the best 2014 during the knockout games. Gosh, I'll probably get somebody labeling me a hater, but that is simply how I remember it from a neutral standpoint. Nani was also Portugals best player 2016, not Ronaldo even though he was very good as well.

Messi deserved the MVP award in 2014 without question.. He has been directly involved in 5 goals out of 7 scored by Argentina and was the best creator by far in the tournament.

Average Rating: No.1 (8.52)
Most chances created: No.1 (that his teammates failed to score and his pass did not register as an assist does not take away from his greatness as the best creator in the tournament)
Most clear cut chances created: No.1
Most successful dribbles: No.1.
Most MOTM awards: No.1 (4 out of 7 games)
Most goals scored: No.3
Most accurate through balls: No 1
Most interceptions as an attacker: No 1

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

"Most interceptions as an attacker", really scraping the bottom of the barrel there.

 

[Son]

The Castrol Index had Toni Kroos as the best performing player of the tournament. Thomas Muller both scored and assisted more than Messi. Robben, James and Neuer can be arguable choices as well. You can even make an argument about Mascherano being the best argentinian player of the tournament. Well, that's why modern individual awards shouldn't be a part of the discussion.

Germany had a better side all over the pitch which helps rack up stats but Messi does by himself things which other footballers can only dream and sometimes cannot be quantified.

Like the last match sometimes he had 6 players all round him. Manages to make the pass or dribble out of dead ends.

Even his assist the last game I don’t think a single other player on the planet could have seen that pass including Toni Kroos.

Most fans probably don’t understand just how good the guy is… For example I rate Platini and thought he was around Maradona’s level based on stats.

In reality he just wasn’t. That Juventus side was stacked and had they changed teams he couldn’t have replaced the immense influence Maradona brought to Napoli. Same is true with Messi and Argentina.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Germany had a better side all over the pitch which helps rack up stats but Messi does by himself things which other footballers can only dream and sometimes cannot be quantified.

Funny, given that one post above you someone tries to defend Messi with sheer numbers.

2014 wasn't that long ago. We all saw that World Cup. Messi wasn't even remotely close to the Messi we'd seen from 2008 to 2012. The numbers support this too, 2013-2014 was his worst club season in ages, he scored 20 goals less than in the previous one and Barcelona won no major titles. Then in the World Cup, a gritty but not very good Argentina made it to the final, and lost.

The award for 'best player' in 2014 was controversial. Maradona said Messi didn't deserve it. Olé, the Argentinian sports magazine, asked if it should have been given to Mascherano. Mexico's manager called the decision "absurd."

Gerard Houllier was involved in giving Messi the award and he justified it a few months later. He said these things:

We in the committee looked at all the games and judged who was most important for their team. He also played in the final, which is one of the conditions for the award of the prize. Messi was more than decisive in the first four games. In the semi-final against the Netherlands he took the first penalty and scored. The analysis takes into account that he was captain of a united team, a team that played well together. That’s something not seen in a while for Argentina.

These are not reasons that scream "obvious decision." Scoring the first penalty in a shootout? This is just motivated reasoning.

 

[Scandi Red]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I saw someone post that Ronaldo has zero goals and assists in WC knockout games and that the combined number of on-field minutes makes up around 7 full games? Those are pretty awful numbers for a GOAT contender who has largely been at the center of everything.

It also kind of destroys the argument that Ronaldo supposedly is more useful than Messi when playing for a weaker team.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

That is the big difference you fail to notice between Ronaldo and Messi fans...

Both groups are as tedious and obnoxious as the other as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

It´s not only about goals and assists, you'll never learn, will you?

But...

Stat	Messi	Ronaldo
WC Goals	10	8
WC Non-Penalty Goals	8	5
WC Assists	7	2
WC Goals + Assists	17	10
WC KO Stages Goals	2	0
WC KO Stages Assists	5	0
WC KO Stages Goals + Assists	7	0
WC Player of the Tournament	1	0
WC Average Match Rating	8.09	7.04
Copa/Euros KO Stages Goals	5	3
Copa/Euros KO Stages Assists	12	2
Copa/Euros KO Stages G+A	17	5
Copa/Euros Player of the Tournament	2	0
All Major Tournaments Goals	23	22
All Major Tournaments Assists	24	8
All Major Tournaments G + A	47	30
All Major Tournaments KO Stages G+A	24	5
All Major Tournaments Player of the Tournament	3	0

If anyone wants to focus exclusively on goals and assists, Messi is miles ahead when it comes to the highest level of international football. And it isn't even that close.

 

[Gio]

Right you are. Robben, James, Neuer, Mascherano. Kroos did alright but it was Schweinsteiger post 1/16 that did the work, especially in that final. Just for that performance alone I'd crown him player of the tournament.

Otherwise Mascherano would be very deserving if they had won. Javier played great and he was "el jefe", the boss, for that Argentina on and off the pitch. Same role that Veron had in 2010 who was their best player in that WC and before that Riquelme was the main star 2006 together with Maxi Rodriguez.

And also as you say Messi was not the best 2014 during the knockout games. Gosh, I'll probably get somebody labeling me a hater, but that is simply how I remember it from a neutral standpoint. Nani was also Portugals best player 2016, not Ronaldo even though he was very good as well.

Aye, you can make a case for a handful of players in 2014. Robben was devastating in Van Gaal's counter-attacking 3-5-2 - from his demoliton of Spain - a country who hadn't conceded a single goal in their last 10 knockout games - through to getting Holland out of the shite against Mexico. He took a number of top defenders to the cleaners and 3 goals and 3 assists was a decent return. And James Rodriguez would have been a clear choice as both top scorer and a scorer of great goals - he certainly did the most with the least. Then, reflecting that the knockouts were mostly about teams rather than individuals, there's a decent argument for Mascherano who I'd agree became increasingly important as the tournament progressed. Same rationale applies for Schweinsteiger. And looking back Neuer's extreme sweeper keeping was the biggest long-term tactical game-changer and there's a case he provides the greatest legacy to the game.

Messi was up there too. He looked like he was set for a great one after the group stages, but he struggled to leave much of a mark on the knockout stages. So, overall, he fell a little short for me. It felt like his award was a combination of a good tournament and his pre-eminent reputation in the game, which is how individual awards tend to work.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I saw someone post that Ronaldo has zero goals and assists in WC knockout games and that the combined number of on-field minutes makes up around 7 full games? Those are pretty awful numbers for a GOAT contender who has largely been at the center of everything.
It also kind of destroys the argument that Ronaldo supposedly is more useful than Messi when playing for a weaker team.

It is somewhat misleading but the overall conclusion that Ronaldo isn't very good at the World Cup is true.

During Ronaldo's prime, Portugal didn't do anything in the World Cup. In 2010 they lost 1-0 to Spain in R16. In 2014 they finished 3rd in the group stages. In 2018 they lost 2-1 to Uruguay in R16.

The majority of games Ronaldo played in the knockouts were in World Cup 2006, where Portugal finished 4th. He was not any kind of serious contender for 'best player in the world' at the time, though, nor much of a goalscorer.

 

[giorno]

Messi played in 5 world cups(though he barely played in 2006, still scored a goal though) and 6 Copa America, to Cristiano's 5 WC/5 Euros. That said, at this point it has to be Messi. Not Cristiano's fault he had to carry a weak Portugal throughout his prime years, and even getting Portugal to qualify for those tournaments(2008/10/12/14/16) has to be considered an accomplishment given he really had very little support besides Pepe and Nani, but performance in tournaments is the ultimate test of a player and with this world cup Messi has gone ahead there

Oh and please stop defending Messi's best player award in 2014, that was a farce and even Messi knows it. Not every game is equal and Messi did very little from the QF on...a good game against the netherlands in the SF sandwiched between two outright bad games can't compare to Robben's sheer brilliance in every single game he played or James in god-mode throughout(watch the brazil-colombia game again, it was Brazil vs James and they barely survived thanks to Ospina and Muriel mistakes)

 

[RedRonaldo]

Stop embarrassing yourself mate.

Can’t argue with facts? Got it that’s your level mate.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Wrong, it is the Ronaldo fanboys doing that as there is not a single tournament where he was the best player of his team or the tournament with the NT.

Messi had plenty of tournaments where he was not only the best player of his team but also chosen as the best player of the tournament. Actually, he was chosen as the MVP in every single type of tournament he participated in unlike Ronaldo who has none, the reason why Ronaldo fans have to highlight the team awards as if Ronaldo won them alone. That is the big difference you fail to notice between Ronaldo and Messi fans where Messi fans emphasize individual awards/performance as football is a team sport..

No one cares whether Pele won any of those tournaments MVP though when he was regarded as the greatest player in WC, with his team winning 3 WC. Just saying.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I wonder what's so bad about player fans. It's not any more or less stupid than supporting a football club. Personally, I follow my own team but besides that, I'm much more interested in players/coaches than clubs. If a team is no longer entertaining, why would I watch it?

Some people are interested in the sport and not the stuff around it (history, fan communities, etc.). For me, it's much more childish to primarily follow an institution regardless of the people it's represented by.

I actually do agree with you, although I do have a club where I’d unconditionally support.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Messi carried his team to a WC final and and now to Semifinals, what are you people talking about? Seriously

Don’t think Messi ever carried his team to a WC final though without a contributing anything at knockout stage in 2014 WC. It’s was rather a collective effort from defensive players which carried their team to final. Messi was brilliant that year, up to group stage only.

This year would be interesting though as Messi has been doing good in knockout stage scoring/assisting crucial goals.

 

[genardk]

No one cares whether Pele won any of those tournaments MVP though when he was regarded as the greatest player in WC, with his team winning 3 WC. Just saying.

Because he was the MVP/best player in 58-70 tournaments, that's the underlying reason why he is the greatest WC player ever.. How can you be the greatest WC player ever without starring/being the best player in a WC?

 

[tenpoless]

Ronaldo : He is insufferable, I bet he'd rather his country gets knocked out if he wasn't in the squad
Messi : His fans are insufferable, I bet they'd rather their country gets knocked out when they play Argentina

Conclusion : They're both shite.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Messi deserved the MVP award in 2014 without question.. He has been directly involved in 5 goals out of 7 scored by Argentina and was the best creator by far in the tournament.

Average Rating: No.1 (8.52)
Most chances created: No.1 (that his teammates failed to score and his pass did not register as an assist does not take away from his greatness as the best creator in the tournament)
Most clear cut chances created: No.1
Most successful dribbles: No.1.
Most MOTM awards: No.1 (4 out of 7 games)
Most goals scored: No.3
Most accurate through balls: No 1
Most interceptions as an attacker: No 1

This is very unrigurous use of data and really not much better than using no data at all.

Other than 'average rating', every stat presented here is additive ("most X"). This is a problem when we are talking about a competition in which teams and players don't play the same amount of games. It is reasonable to assume that anyone who makes it to the semifinals has a better chance of having "most X" by virtue of playing more games. It also reasonable to assume that being good at football is going to correlate with advancing to the semifinals. So it becomes difficult to separate what is going on here unless the effects are very clear. In this case the effects are not very clear since Messi stopped scoring goals after the group stages, so we cannot simply say "he is responsible for the extra 90 minutes that allowed him to rack more numbers" and so forth. Therefore you can't just say "whoever has the most, is best." That's the first problem.

The second problem is the almost total lack of context. I have no idea whether "most accurate through balls", "most successful dribbles," most clear cut chances created," etc. are a close match to 'best player of the tournament' level performance. All I know is that Messi ranked #1 in these things. I have no idea who ranked #2 on accurate through balls, #3 in successful dribbles, and so forth. I don't even know how many of these things Messi even did. I don't know if #2 was very close to #1. I don't know if #3 was very close to #2. I don't know anything. The argument is semi-circular, in a way. It is relying on you assuming that Messi is the best. If he is the best, then numbers must reflect that. Therefore, if he is #1 in such and such, it must be a metric that properly reflects quality.

The third problem is that it's a selective argument. Anyone can see that "Most Assists" is not there. That is because Messi had 1 assist in the tournament and was nowhere close to the top of this fairly important metric. If this were a consistent stat that'd be one thing, but it isn't. On this same page, someone else has posted a table comparing Messi and Ronaldo and, unsurprisingly, it has assists. A person might suspect that this is simply picking and choosing which number looks higher.

Another example of a selective argument is the use of the 'Average Rating' from Whoscored. This website also happens to give MOTM awards, and it happened to give Messi 5 MOTM awards. Why not use the Whoscored MOTM awards, which give Messi 5 awards, instead of the 4 official ones? Probably because Whoscored also gives Arjen Robben 5 MOTM awards and so if we use that we can no longer claim that Messi was #1, "just" joint #1.

 

[Tincanalley]

Ronnie lad not too popular roun’ these part nowadays. Aar.

 

[Camara]

But...

Stat	Messi	Ronaldo
WC Goals	10	8
WC Non-Penalty Goals	8	5
WC Assists	7	2
WC Goals + Assists	17	10
WC KO Stages Goals	2	0
WC KO Stages Assists	5	0
WC KO Stages Goals + Assists	7	0
WC Player of the Tournament	1	0
WC Average Match Rating	8.09	7.04
Copa/Euros KO Stages Goals	5	3
Copa/Euros KO Stages Assists	12	2
Copa/Euros KO Stages G+A	17	5
Copa/Euros Player of the Tournament	2	0
All Major Tournaments Goals	23	22
All Major Tournaments Assists	24	8
All Major Tournaments G + A	47	30
All Major Tournaments KO Stages G+A	24	5
All Major Tournaments Player of the Tournament	3	0

If anyone wants to focus exclusively on goals and assists, Messi is miles ahead when it comes to the highest level of international football. And it isn't even that close.

This conversation again?
Check how many games both played and who they played against, and especially how they fared against strong opponents.

 

[Pocho]

Ronaldo : He is insufferable, I bet he'd rather his country gets knocked out if he wasn't in the squad
Messi : His fans are insufferable, I bet they'd rather their country gets knocked out when they play Argentina

Conclusion : They're both shite.

clueless, Messi can get both legs broken for me if Argentina wins the WC.

 

[genardk]

This is very unrigurous use of data and really not much better than using no data at all.

Other than 'average rating', every stat presented here is additive ("most X"). This is a problem when we are talking about a competition in which teams and players don't play the same amount of games. It is reasonable to assume that anyone who makes it to the semifinals has a better chance of having "most X" by virtue of playing more games. It also reasonable to assume that being good at football is going to correlate with advancing to the semifinals. So it becomes difficult to separate what is going on here unless the effects are very clear. In this case the effects are not very clear since Messi stopped scoring goals after the group stages, so we cannot simply say "he is responsible for the extra 90 minutes that allowed him to rack more numbers" and so forth. Therefore you can't just say "whoever has the most, is best." That's the first problem.

Of course, it is going to be the player who made it at least to semis to win the best player award, is this a surprise for you? Have you ever seen something else in a CL, WC, EC tournament?

The second problem is the almost total lack of context. I have no idea whether "most accurate through balls", "most successful dribbles," most clear cut chances created," etc. are a close match to 'best player of the tournament' level performance. All I know is that Messi ranked #1 in these things. I have no idea who ranked #2 on accurate through balls, #3 in successful dribbles, and so forth. I don't even know how many of these things Messi even did. I don't know if #2 was very close to #1. I don't know if #3 was very close to #2. I don't know anything. The argument is semi-circular, in a way. It is relying on you assuming that Messi is the best. If he is the best, then numbers must reflect that. Therefore, if he is #1 in such and such, it must be a metric that properly reflects quality.

What are you talking about? That Messi is simultaneously a leader in all these areas in the WC (like he is in La Liga, CL etc.) is surprising to you, you do not have any idea what's happening here, I mean really?. Have you ever watched Messi? The guy is a GOAT level playmaker/creator+dribbler+goalscorer.. And above stats are a common reflection of his superior skills other than the eye test..

The third problem is that it's a selective argument. Anyone can see that "Most Assists" is not there. That is because Messi had 1 assist in the tournament and was nowhere close to the top of this fairly important metric. If this were a consistent stat that'd be one thing, but it isn't. On this same page, someone else has posted a table comparing Messi and Ronaldo and, unsurprisingly, it has assists. A person might suspect that this is simply picking and choosing which number looks higher.

Oh, all of a sudden, your analytical mind stopped working and now assists are extremely important when you know, I know everyone knows that whether a pass is registered as an assist depends on whether the guy who is assisted can score a goal so it is dependent on the other person.. It's kind of interesting that a quant-expert with an analytical mind like yourself prefers to ignore clear-cut chances created and focuses only on assists..

Another example of a selective argument is the use of the 'Average Rating' from Whoscored. This website also happens to give MOTM awards, and it happened to give Messi 5 MOTM awards. Why not use the Whoscored MOTM awards, which give Messi 5 awards, instead of the 4 official ones? Probably because Whoscored also gives Arjen Robben 5 MOTM awards and so if we use that we can no longer claim that Messi was #1, "just" joint #1.

And, what difference does that make? Messi is either a leader or a co-leader, so there goes your argument.. I have not even noticed Robben won 5 MOTM according to Whoscored, you are too much into conspiracy theories))

Your bias against Messi seems to cloud your judgment, bro, you are trying too hard.. give it a rest and let's all enjoy hopefully his magic one more time against Croatia today..

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

genardk, there's no point in replying to this line by line. Instead I'll just ask you to provide the source for these stats. So that I can see who was #2, #3 and so forth.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Because he was the MVP/best player in 58-70 tournaments, that's the underlying reason why he is the greatest WC player ever.. How can you be the greatest WC player ever without starring/being the best player in a WC?

Not necessarily true. Best player in 62 tournament was Garrincha. While best player in 70 tournament, was a bit debatable to be honest. While Pele has been iconic that tournament, it was Muller who stole the individual show with 10 goals (vs Pele 4). Brazil was more about collective effort/brilliance during that tournament, instead of one single standout player.

Pele was easily best player in 58 tournament though.

 

[Nicolarra90]

Can’t argue with facts? Got it that’s your level mate.

Those are very biased facts.

 

[bosnian_red]

It was every 3 years until 2007 they decided it to be every 4. Then the 2016 one was a special celebration for the centenary. And then after 2019 they dediced to par it with the euro. It's not that hard to undestand.

Actually it has been entirely inconsistent throughout its entire history. Anywhere from 1-4 years basically. Always wondered why they were just picking and choosing, as that definitely doesn't help interest just tossing more of them in.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Pele was easily best player in 58 tournament though.

Even that is very much debatable.

He had an insane impact on the latter stages of the tournament and launched himself as a phenomenon rarely seen (arguably never - before or later - in that exact form) in the world of football.

But in terms of the whole tournament?

If there's a consensus here * I'd say it's probably Didi - which is clearly fairer in terms of his influence on the team throughout the tournament (and not just the last couple of matches).

As for '70, I'd say that one belongs to Pelé - and clearly so.

Müller? Again with the numbers...Not that Müller wasn't a great player (he absolutely was), but it was Pelé who made that Brazil team come together. He was the most important cog in the machinery, his role was what made the whole thing click, and he played that role to perfection.

* Among football historians, at least.

 

[the_cliff]

Don't get the 2014 golden ball controversy, Messi deserved it, was nothing like the 2002 decision....
Only serious competition Messi had was Robben and after the Argentina-Netherlands game that put that one to bed.

And for the people saying James Rodriguez was serious competition. The golden ball has never been given to a player that was knocked out in the quarter finals, In fact, it's only ever been given to a player that has been knocked out in the semi finals twice, the rest were all in the world cup final.

 

[Zehner]

I see your point, I disagree regarding the institutions as that's what many people have grown up on and fell in love with the history of their associated club, I love Manchester United because it reminds me of my grandad who I used to watch it with when I was younger and he would tell me all about the history, Busby babes etc so it became a huge part of my affiliation with him when I was younger.

I don't necessarily have a problem per se with player fans, it's just everyone I've ever met or interacted with is so one-note 'my player is the best and everyone who likes the other player is either an idiot or doesn't know football' and it predominantly seems to be young teenage boys. I tend to see better engagement between people who support football clubs, unless they're on a clear wind up, as they've seen their teams rise and fall throughout the years so can speak on bad experiences as well as good, whereas player hopping doesn't allow that.

OK, enjoying a player and taking their interest in their career is one thing, but it becomes ******* when you see the kind of one-eyed bias you see from some people who have decided to align themselves behind a sports figure and decided they'll big up everything that person does and put down any of their rivals. While it's perfectly possible to NOT take it to such extremes, the level of discourse on twitter or even forums like these when "fan boys" get involved is just atrocious. Unfortunately, it's the mental ones who are the loudest and I think it's hard to look beyond that when you see it happen so often.

I don't think many would argue that football club fandom doesn't have an element of childishness, it's why many grow out of it and it becomes more of an interest than a passion as we get older.

But hasn't this more to do with tribalism than player worshipping? And tribalism for me is a very present problem in football, regardless of player or club fans. Some of the more tribal United fans in here are very hard to deal with since they lack any kind of objectivity when it comes to their club. They feel inclined to belittle rivals, take criticism personal and all that stuff (as a sidenote: I don't think this is unique to United in anyway, it's observable in all groups of football supporters, we just happen to be on a United board). It's basically the same behavior, just on another topic.

And to be honest, club fans have a history of behaving far worse than player fans out of tribalism - today but especially in the past with all the hooliganism. To date I haven't heard of Messi and Ronaldo ultras organizing brawls or something like that. So I think it is wrong to paint the "new, young generation of fans" as weirdos in contrast to their predecessors.

Don't get me wrong, it's great to allow yourself a bit of chilidishness at times and footbal is an excellent vehicle for that. But I don't think supporting players is a stick to beat people with. Especially not in times when very few clubs really compete for titles anymore and for many fans top football is something their own clubs will never participate in. Then following UCL football is more like following tennis or the NBA as a European fan - you have no affiliations and what's most interesting is the sport and the sport is personified by the athletes/coaches.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

This conversation again?
Check how many games both played and who they played against, and especially how they fared against strong opponents.

I did. Perhaps you should do so and get back to me.

It's the career totals in all major international tournaments and the breakdown for each.
If you're going to argue that Ronaldo faced better world cup opponents than Messi did, goodluck presenting that argument.

 

[Revan]

I think Xavi is #1 for the era (post 2006, end of Zizou and Ronaldo and Ronaldhino and last tournament before Spain started winning it) and then Messi, Modric fighting for #2 but with Xavi in tier 1, and Cristiano, Schweinsteiger, Iniesta, Ramos, Robben, Klose, Griezmann and I'm probably forgetting someone else. Pogba, whose career with France has been underrated, goes in tier 3 with Mbappe (he'll jump up at least one tier) and now Varane.

Tough to not have Messi #1 but I think at gunpoint Spain with Messi would have probably won 2 titles and certainly not 3 in a row with less control of games and their fullbacks, keeper and Busquets being somewhat susceptible on the counter.

Griezmann has been as good as Messi and Modric IMO. Best player in 2016 when France got silver medal, best France's player in WC2018, and arguably best France's player in this competition. If France wins again, with him as the best player, he becomes the best player in international tournament post Xavi.

 

[giorno]

Not necessarily true. Best player in 62 tournament was Garrincha. While best player in 70 tournament, was a bit debatable to be honest. While Pele has been iconic that tournament, it was Muller who stole the individual show with 10 goals (vs Pele 4). Brazil was more about collective effort/brilliance during that tournament, instead of one single standout player.

Pele was easily best player in 58 tournament though.

'58 was Didi actually, Pelé was very clearly the best player in 1970

 

[Righteous Steps]

Griezmann has been as good as Messi and Modric IMO. Best player in 2016 when France got silver medal, best France's player in WC2018, and arguably best France's player in this competition. If France wins again, with him as the best player, he becomes the best player in international tournament post Xavi.

Won’t disagree with that.

 

[Joeyfromtheblock]

Can we go back to the topic? Its about messi vs cr7 international. Its not about other players (in that case R9 is the best ever to touch a football. not debatable btw.)


at the moment id say messi is a bit ahead. Duo personal impact. But i feel like.. on paper argentina always (not this year tho) had the far better team but no matter what team they had.. all focus is on messi

 

[Andrade]

Not necessarily true. Best player in 62 tournament was Garrincha. While best player in 70 tournament, was a bit debatable to be honest. While Pele has been iconic that tournament, it was Muller who stole the individual show with 10 goals (vs Pele 4). Brazil was more about collective effort/brilliance during that tournament, instead of one single standout player.

Pele was easily best player in 58 tournament though.

No it isn't

 

[2mufc0]

Griezmann has been as good as Messi and Modric IMO. Best player in 2016 when France got silver medal, best France's player in WC2018, and arguably best France's player in this competition. If France wins again, with him as the best player, he becomes the best player in international tournament post Xavi.

If Mbappe wins this year he would have overtaken all of them including CR and LM, incredible given he still probably has another 5/6 major tournaments in him.

 

[Revan]

If Mbappe wins this year he would have overtaken all of them including CR and LM, incredible given he still probably has another 5/6 major tournaments in him.

He probably has already overtaken CR in that aspect.

Saying that, I think that Griezmann was easily their best player in WC2018 (and Euro 2016 even more so but Mbappe was not playing then). Even in this World Cup, I think Griezmann is their most important player, and is involved in everything. Mbappe is flashier, and is scoring more, but take Griezmann out of that team and it will completely fall apart.

 

[TheRedHearted]

This conversation again?
Check how many games both played and who they played against, and especially how they fared against strong opponents.

Couldn’t you just reply with that info?

 

[Righteous Steps]

He probably has already overtaken CR in that aspect.

Saying that, I think that Griezmann was easily their best player in WC2018 (and Euro 2016 even more so but Mbappe was not playing then). Even in this World Cup, I think Griezmann is their most important player, and is involved in everything. Mbappe is flashier, and is scoring more, but take Griezmann out of that team and it will completely fall apart.

I think @JPRouve may agree with this?

 

[General_Elegancia]

He probably has already overtaken CR in that aspect.

Saying that, I think that Griezmann was easily their best player in WC2018 (and Euro 2016 even more so but Mbappe was not playing then). Even in this World Cup, I think Griezmann is their most important player, and is involved in everything. Mbappe is flashier, and is scoring more, but take Griezmann out of that team and it will completely fall apart.

Griezmann in this tournament is the real backbone of France's team. This guy is on another level at the midfield position. He is probably responsible for almost everything that pure stats couldn't be evaluated, carrying the ball forward, linking up with other teammates, and tracking back to help at the defensive phase. He's a person who links the midfielder's area and forward. A real reason why France's game can be so smooth, and could play in every way of football( counter, defensive, offensive).