Also, posters usually question the "competitiveness" of the Euros versus the Copa (he plays minnows like San Marino, or the Copa only has x amount of good teams etc.), so the world cup has to weigh heavily in this debate as its the only "fair" international competition which both played in.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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These threads and debates are never going to have an end or a clear winner
They were both great and its just impossible to say either of them were not.
They were both great and its just impossible to say either of them were not.
It's the highest level of international football. And on that highest level, there's been a gulf in their performances.
I mean the thread title is asking about strictly better international career, but I agree generally.
2 goals and 5 assists in 10 games vs 0 goals and 0 assists in 8 games.
Yeah agreed with that. Messi is so much more than just a goalscorer. Always has been. It's just insane when you factor that in and still think about all the goals he has scored.
Stop being so sensible it doesn't suit these threads.
But since we are comparing two individuals wouldn't we be comparing their performances in tournaments ? in Euro 2016 Griezmann was player of the tournament. Messi has been player of the tournament in a world cup and 2 Copas.
In terms of all time international goal record, it's irrelevant. Ali Daei of Iran had the record till Ronaldo beat him, I'm not sure people were saying he had the better international career until he was overtaken by Ronaldo.
In terms of goal totals, let's not pretend like Messi doesn't play guatamala, Haiti, Bolivia etc in friendlies and qualifiers. They both play their fair share of scrubs. The actual Euro tournament is much tougher to win than the Copa is though. And the Euros has stayed consistent, whereas I've lost respect for the Copa America with their inconsistency of scheduling and just tossing in bonus ones so that Messi could eventually get a win. A Euros win is the equivalent to a CL win basically for me, while a Copa win is like Barcelona winning a league title. For me anyway.
Where did i say it wasn't? I literally said both sets questioning the strength of the other? So no idea why you're going on the defensive and rambling if i'm honest.
If someone suggests that San Marino participated in the Euros then their opinion is questionable.
It’s only fair though by comparing players between different continents and confederations that you broadly treat regional competitions as they are - so for Messi it’s Copa America, for Salah the Afcon, for Ronaldo it’s the Euros. The only way to fairly compare them all is the World Cup where everyone has a chance to play on the same stage.
We can’t know how Messi would have done in the Euros or Ronaldo would have done in Copa America, so the World Cup is the ultimate decider on international careers.
If someone suggests that San Marino participated in the Euros then their opinion is questionable.
Do you know what Portugals draw / opponents in the Euros were? I'd say Euro understandably meant more to Portugal as a nation than the Copa to Argentina but the run in for Portugal (Pre peak France aside) was average.
The goals is a factor in best career, just like golden ball is a factor in their careers. I think the questions "who has had a better career" is different from "who has been a better player". The latter is clear on both club and national level. The first isn't clear on either level given Ronaldo's CL titles and the goal totals IMO. That one is much more heavily weighed towards just the big trophies/records. Honorable loser doesn't give you many points IMO.
They've both been a bit underwhelming when you compare them to the other GOATs like Pelé and Maradona.
Their international careers seem to be going in different directions, the young Ronaldo in his first few tournaments was very impressive even without the goals/assists. Messi seems to be getting better with Argentina with age although he's still a few years younger.
100+ goals in internationals isn't an easy feat despite some trying their best to downplay it, but Messi after this WC has the better knockout performances, both are great and Messi will tip it once Argentina win the wc.
Their international careers seem to be going in different directions, the young Ronaldo in his first few tournaments was very impressive even without the goals/assists. Messi seems to be getting better with Argentina with age although he's still a few years younger.
100+ goals in internationals isn't an easy feat despite some trying their best to downplay it, but Messi after this WC has the better knockout performances, both are great and Messi will tip it once Argentina win the wc.
The Messi 2014 golden ball was a debatable decision.
Yes but Messi has 95 in 170 apps and Ronaldo has 118 in 196 apps. I'd understand the argument if it was a huge gap but that gap isn't big enough to be a factor.
Also Messi has 95 goals and 52 assists in 170 apps. That's 147 goal contributions in 170 apps.
Ronaldo has 118 goals and 33 assists in 196 apps. That's 151 goal contributions in 196 apps.
In Major tournaments (Copa/Euros):
Messi 13 goals 17 assists. 30 goal contributions in 34 apps.
Ronaldo 14 goals 6 assists. 20 goal contributions in 25 apps.
World Cup:
Messi 10 Goals 7 assists. 17 Goal contributions in 24 apps.
Ronaldo 8 goals 2 assists. 10 goal contributions in 22 apps.
Taking the numbers in to account idk how anyone can argue those numbers being a win for Ronaldo over Messi....
That's without taking individual tournament awards into account and overall performance and impact on a game.
I would say that overall Messi has been part of stronger international teams on paper than Ronaldo has. For quite a period, while I don't want to pretend that Portugal were made up of Ronaldo, Pepe and a bunch of amateurs around them, I didn't think they were particularly strong overall / on paper from the start of the Queiroz reign (or maybe even the last couple of years under Scolari) through to the first few years under Santos. Pre-Euro 2000, Portugal didn't have a consistent track record of qualifying for major tournaments, and I'm inclined to think that without Ronaldo they wouldn't have qualified for all of the last 5 World Cups in the first place.
Ronaldo's first prime season would be 2006/2007 when he became the main man at Utd. The major tournaments spanning his impressively lengthy prime would IMO start from either the 2006 World Cup or Euro 2008 through to the 2018 World Cup. I'd rank Portugal's pre-Ronaldo Euro 2000 team ahead of any of those later Portugal teams with a prime Ronaldo, and also ahead of their Euro 2004 team with a 19 year old Ronaldo (when he scored the opening goal in their SF win).
As I said on another thread, this is the only 1 of the last 5 World Cups that I had thought Portugal had any realistic chance of winning. In 2006 they did very well to get to the semis but I thought that was their limit and that they were the weakest of the 4 semi-finalists. In 2018 I fully expected Uruguay to beat them in the 2nd round, and I didn't consider them to be among the favourites despite the fact that they were the reigning Euro champions. Clearly in 2010 and 2014 they had no chance whatsoever of winning (Argentina's 2010 team that were battered by Germany was definitely stronger on paper than Portugal's 2010 team that I was expecting to lose to the Ivory Coast).
Ronaldo's first prime season would be 2006/2007 when he became the main man at Utd. The major tournaments spanning his impressively lengthy prime would IMO start from either the 2006 World Cup or Euro 2008 through to the 2018 World Cup. I'd rank Portugal's pre-Ronaldo Euro 2000 team ahead of any of those later Portugal teams with a prime Ronaldo, and also ahead of their Euro 2004 team with a 19 year old Ronaldo (when he scored the opening goal in their SF win).
As I said on another thread, this is the only 1 of the last 5 World Cups that I had thought Portugal had any realistic chance of winning. In 2006 they did very well to get to the semis but I thought that was their limit and that they were the weakest of the 4 semi-finalists. In 2018 I fully expected Uruguay to beat them in the 2nd round, and I didn't consider them to be among the favourites despite the fact that they were the reigning Euro champions. Clearly in 2010 and 2014 they had no chance whatsoever of winning (Argentina's 2010 team that were battered by Germany was definitely stronger on paper than Portugal's 2010 team that I was expecting to lose to the Ivory Coast).
Come On !
Portugal have had better teams and it's barely close. I don't even know where the idea that Argentina have had stronger international teams on paper even starts. The only position where Argentina have been superior is strikers and you can't exactly play with 5 or 6 of them at once.
Yep, Ronaldo is trying to force an argument that isn’t there based on sheer mass of games and refusing to retire like other greats did.
22 goals in tournaments sounds good until you realise he’s played a massive 47 games, then you realise he’s not even hitting 1 in 2 in tournaments and even worse when it comes to knockouts of tournaments. His last goal in a knockout game of any tournament was his goal against Wales in Euro 2016.
His goal per game record in the Euros is worse than Morata, Lukaku and Rooney, yet nobody would claim these players are king of the Euros. His goal per game in the World Cup is worse than Perisic, Hierro, Henrik Larsson, Lukaku (again), Shaqiri for example.
Yeah, it could be considered the greatest Asian side of all time. Their defensive discipline and concentration were on the top-notch level. NK1966 side was a pretty counter-attacking team. Shin Jung Kyoo who was the captain of that team was a class defender and could be rated as one of the best Asian defenders of all time in the World Cup. Other class players in that team were Pak Doo-Ik( talent-midfielder), and Han Bong Zin( another class midfielder). Young goalkeeper, Lee Chang Myung was also considered a super talent in that team. As he was only 19 years old and performed superbly against a marvelous Italy.
Spot on
I often hear that brandied about how “stacked Argentina were” and they go on to name: Tevez, Messi, Aguero, Higuain, di Maria….all occupying 2-3 positions at best (& even then you’d need to push someone out of position). Sure they had Mascherano but outside of those positions/names…..
You are comparing team achievements alone, my friend. Naively disregarding how they compare in the biggest stage, WC stage.
Messi has been chosen as the best player 5 times, Ronaldo zero.. At the highest stage, WCs, Ronaldo is invisible relative to Messi.
Leading your team to the WC final is way more impressive than playing a EC final (where Ronaldo did not play more than 15 minutes and his teammates won for him), so there goes your argument.. Just because Higuain, Palacio had brain farts does not mean playing a WC final against Germany that demolished Brazil 7-1 is nothing to consider or Messi starring in this WC once again is nothing to consider among his NT career achievements..
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If people keep using the LoN as a tiebreaker, we might as well consider using the FIFA Youth World Cup (comparable) and the Olympic Gold too (significantly more relevant). Both won by Messi in 2005 and 2008 respectively. And the Finalissima too since we're at it.
Stat padding aside, individual honors that aren't directly related to scoring mean nothing nowadays since they are esentially popularity contests that have nothing to do with actual performance in the competition. At the end of the day both have one big continental trophy and one big continental goalscoring record. WC performances help Messi surpass Cristiano, altough both so far underachieved on the big scene.
Stat padding aside, individual honors that aren't directly related to scoring mean nothing nowadays since they are esentially popularity contests that have nothing to do with actual performance in the competition. At the end of the day both have one big continental trophy and one big continental goalscoring record. WC performances help Messi surpass Cristiano, altough both so far underachieved on the big scene.
Despite the horrendous world cup Ronaldo has had and the really top one Messi is having, it's Ronaldo for me. This is the first international tournament where Messi has played to his ability. Historically Messi has played in stronger Argentine teams as well.
Ronaldo but that will change if Argentina win the world cup
No, he hasn't. And it's also not Messi's first top tournament either.
Yes he has. I've followed international soccer outside of the world cup for a lot of years now (most people do not) and Messi has played in a far superior Argentina team than Ronaldo. This is probably the first time I'd say the tables are turned.
Where do you even start with this?
I’d say both of those statements are well wide of the mark. The idea that this is the first time Messi’s played to his ability being about as far wide of the mark as you can get. He’s been the top performer at a few Copas (don’t let the fact his side couldn’t get over the finish line change that).And one of the top performers at 2 World Cups (present one included). Portugal have had great quality and more importantly great balance over the last couple of decades. Argentina having a bunch of top class forwards doesn’t make them a stronger side, even on paper, and their current side really isn’t anything special. Either way you’re so far wrong with those statements I’d question whether or not you ever watch the Copa America. Messi at that last Copa is as good an individual tournament as I’ve seen any player have in my lifetime. He was head and shoulders above the rest.
The Euros vs Copa argument is very strange too (not from you of course but from others). Not saying every team in the Copa is a good one but Messi clearly hasn’t had the benefit of nearly 20 years of being able to pray on sides like Luxembourg (Ronaldo’s favourite victim), Latvia, Angola, Northern Ireland and the like, and certainly not on semi professional/amateur minnows like San Marino and the Faroe Islands. For all that his record is great, Ronaldo has really loaded up against these sides. The lack of respect for the Copa just strikes me a being attributable to ignorance or lack of information more than anything.
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Did you not see 2014 and he won the Copa América just the other year.
It becomes clearer now that the only reason some people think Ronaldo has had a better international career is because they are basing it on false information. How can someone say that this is the first international tournament where Messi has played to his ability when you look at the below.
WC 2014 - Best player award
Copa America 2015- Best player award, Top Assister
Copa America 2016- Played an amazing tournament with 5 goals and 4 assists and was in team of the tournament
Copa America 2021- Best player award, Top Goalscorer, Top Assister
Ronaldo meanwhile has never performed at a major international tournament
Those old enough to remember 2004 will remember Ronaldo's crunching header against The Netherlands in the semi-final, which puts him well above anything Messi has achieved on the international stage
And yet, you make wild claims. There is no point where Argentina had a far superior team than Portugal.
Your first points are spot on, not sure about your last statement though.
I also remember him skying a chance to make it 1-1 in the final of Euro 2004.
Nope.
If you made an argument for James Rodriguez or Arjen Robben that would've been more legitimate.
You remember nothing.
Messi literally doesn’t play these in qualifiers. They are CONCACAF, Argentina is in CONMEBOL.