Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?

[genardk]

This pretty much comes down to if Argentina win the world Cup or not. Otherwise they're both level when it comes to international football IMO.

Ronaldo hasn't had the best of times in world cups, but he is the top international scorer of all time...

In terms of who was the better player over their career, no question there. It's tight between better scorer, who had a better career, who achieved greater things etc. But better overall player over their career is Messi and that one isn't particularly close IMO. Messi is arguably the best scorer along with Ronaldo, but also has the best creator/passer and best dribbler points locked up and well above Ronaldo's level.

Is this even a debate now?

Better scorer? How can you be level when one was chosen as the best player in every single international team he participated in including the WC and the other zero? How can you be level with 0 knock-out goals and assists in 8 games in the biggest stage, WC on 5 different occasions? What Romario, R9, Gerd Muller and many others etc. did with their NTs as strikers far eclipse what Ronaldo did with his NT.. Let Romario, Gerd, R9 etc. play multiple times against Lux, Andorra, Faroe etc. and see what happens to their goal record.. We saw what happened when Messi had this one chance of playing against a team like Estonia, 5 goals in a single game.. let him play tons more against andorra, faroe etc. see what happens to his record..

Ronaldo's record against WC winning nations (Germany, England, France, Spain, Italy, Uruguay, Brazil, Argentina), 7 goals in 32 games (including 3 penalties), 0.22 goal per game, terrible.

His record against minnows (Luxembourg, Latvia, Lithuania, Andorra, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Faroe, North korea, Azerbaijan) 45 goals in 26 games, 1.7 goal per game..

His record against Americans (Ecuador, Argentina, Brazil, Panama, US, Canada, Uruguay, Chile), 3 goals in 12 games, 0.22 per game, terrible..

0 knock-out goals in the WC after the group stage
0 tournament best player award vs Messi's 5 including the WC..

Does anyone remember him having an unforgettable tournament (in terms of personal performance) with the NT?

The guy's method is playing as many games as possible against minnows and inflating his record.. He is nowhere near Gerd Muller who scored 68 goals in 62 games at a time where you did not have minnows like Andorra, Faroe, San Marino, ex Soviet nations etc., basically Ronaldo's favorites.. Hell, even Lukaku has a better per game goal ratio than this fraud..

As in the words of great Eusebio

"The comparisons make me sad. It's easier now. I never played against Liechtenstein and Azerbaijan".

"It's wrong. There is no comparison. I scored my 41 goals in 60 games. It's easier now because you play more games against weak teams."

https://www.marca.com/2013/09/11/en/football/international_football/1378917585.html

 

[2mufc0]

As in the words of great Eusebio

"The comparisons make me sad. It's easier now. I never played against Liechtenstein and Azerbaijan".

Funny coming from a guy who scored 4 goals in a single game against North Korea, not in qualifying or friendly but in a WC quarter final

 

[The Corinthian]

Also - wasn't Messi's first knock out goal in a WC the penalty vs Netherlands the other night? Edit: His first was against the Aussies this tournament.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Right now I still think Ronaldo has better international career. Reasons?

- all time international top goalscorer
- Won first ever Euro for his country (1 out of 1)
- Won 2 major trophy for his country (2 out of 2)
- Only player who score in 5 Euro + 5 WC
- Euro all time top scorer
- Euro Golden Boot

vs

- all time South American top scorer
- Won 1 Copa for his country (1 out of 15)
- Won 1 Olympic for his country (u-23)
- WC Golden Ball

But if Messi finally wins this WC for Argentina, sure it’s Messi.

 

[genardk]

Funny coming from a guy who scored 4 goals in a single game against North Korea, not in qualifying or friendly but in a WC quarter final

It matters a lot when your team is down 3-0, and you turn it around scoring 4 goals saving your team in a " WC QF" especially when that same N.Korea finished their group above Italy and Chile beating Italy.. These days, it is enough for Ronaldo fans that he scores a hat-trick against mighty Andorra or Faroe in friendlies to call him the top goal scorer ever

 

[genardk]

Right now I still think Ronaldo has better international career. Reasons?

- all time international top goalscorer
- Won first ever Euro for his country (1 out of 1)
- Won 2 major trophy for his country (2 out of 2)
- Only player who score in 5 Euro + 5 WC
- Euro all time top scorer
- Euro Golden Boot

vs

- all time South American top scorer
- Won 1 Copa for his country (1 out of 15)
- Won 1 Olympic for his country (u-23)
- WC Golden Ball

But if Messi finally wins this WC for Argentina, sure it’s Messi.

copium is excessive on this one, not surprised coming from a Portuguese user using Ronaldo in his nickname

Ronaldo did not win the EC, bro, this is a team sport, he did not even play in the final more than 15 minutes, it is Portugal who won the EC with Pepe being the best player not even Ronaldo.. Messi left his mark multiple times both in the WC and Copa, selected the best player multiple times,.. The guy is a playmaker first..

On the WC stage, Ronaldo has been useless.. Playing in 5 WCs is meaningless when you couldn't even score a single goal in the knock-out stage. as a supposedly top goal-scorer.. He can play another 5 WCs until he is 60, who cares if he is useless.. Messi is heads and shoulders above Ronaldo in WC, no comparison..

As for his Euro top scorer thing, this is why he is a fraud, remove all these useless teams Andorra, Faroe, ex Soviet nations, teams that did not exist before 90s, his record is bang average.. Hell, even with those, he is nothing compared to Muller's and some others' goal per game ratio and worse than the mighty Lukaku..

 

[Raees]

Funny coming from a guy who scored 4 goals in a single game against North Korea, not in qualifying or friendly but in a WC quarter final

That North Korea side was excellent, gave big sides bloody noses and just look back at the footage - much better than the current South Korean side for example.

 

[Tibs]

Ronaldo

 

[Raees]

IF Argentina win the world cup, TBH I think Messi has already done enough just by getting Argentina to the semis but lets just say for completeness sake they win - this Messi v Ronaldo battle is dead in the water on all fronts, it really is.

 

[RedRonaldo]

copium is excessive on this one, not surprised coming from a Portuguese user using Ronaldo in his nickname

Ronaldo did not win the EC, bro, this is a team sport, he did not even play in the final more than 15 minutes, it is Portugal who won the EC with Pepe being the best player not even Ronaldo.. Messi left his mark multiple times both in the WC and Copa, selected the best player multiple times,.. The guy is a playmaker first..

On the WC stage, Ronaldo has been useless.. Playing in 5 WCs is meaningless when you couldn't even score a single goal in the knock-out stage. as a supposedly top goal-scorer.. He can play another 5 WCs until he is 60, who cares if he is useless.. Messi is heads and shoulders above Ronaldo in WC, no comparison..

As for his Euro top scorer thing, this is why he is a fraud, remove all these useless teams Andorra, Faroe, ex Soviet nations, teams that did not exist before 90s, his record is bang average.. Hell, even with those, he is nothing compared to Muller's and some others' goal per game ratio and worse than the mighty Lukaku..

Ok relax, just comparing their international career highlights, like it or not, these are all objective facts and will have their mark on football history forever.

Not disagreeing Messi might have better WC career, but this thread is also about international career, so other international and Euro/Copa goals/trophies also counts.

 

[genardk]

IF Argentina win the world cup, TBH I think Messi has already done enough just by getting Argentina to the semis but lets just say for completeness sake they win - this Messi v Ronaldo battle is dead in the water on all fronts, it really is.

He already led them to WC finals in 2014, chosen as the best player of the tournament.
He already led his team to multiple Copa finals chosen as the best player multiple times.
At 35, now he led his team to the semis in the WC again, and is currently seen as one of the top 2 players of the tournament along with Mbappe, with a bang average Argentina side..

Not to mention, the guy has been both the creative brain and the main goal scoring threat for his team all these years.. At this stage, his main competitor is his compatriot Maradona due to Maradona's magical 86 WC.. He has to win it to be seen at a similar status with Maradona for what they did for the NT..

 

[2mufc0]

That North Korea side was excellent, gave big sides bloody noses and just look back at the footage - much better than the current South Korean side for example.

I've seen those goals many times the defending was shocking to say the least.

 

[Pink Moon]

Messi, IMO. He's led his team to a World Cup final and looks good for doing it again this year meanwhile Ronaldo has always been underwhelming at the World Cup and hasn't even scored a knockout goal. Messi was great all tournament when his nation won their continental trophy. Ronaldo wasn't, and I don't care that he got a hat trick in the group stages. They finished third in a group featuring Iceland, Hungary and Austria and they were horrific all tournament. Only Greece (funnily enough against Ronaldo and co) were a more smash and grab winner. Plus he didn't even play in the final. Much like in this World Cup, it seems his team are actually better without him. No one could say that about Argentina and Messi.

The only thing Ronaldo has over him is the goals which, when you apply context, isn't all that. In Europe you are often drawn in groups featuring minnows like Gibraltar, Andorra, San Marino, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Malta, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan, Faroe Islands, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Estonia etc. European internationalists play against vastly inferior opponents on a regular basis. Not to take away from Ronaldo's achievements of course as if it were that easy then a lot of Europe's top players would have similar records and they don't. That's fantastic from him. I'm looking at it purely in comparison to Messi and no one else. South American teams are much tougher opponents and there's also tougher elements geographically to contend with.

 

[izec]

Messi. With the Copa win, it was settled. Now another semi final as the star man. It is not even close.

 

[mathrait]

Right now I still think Ronaldo has better international career. Reasons?

- all time international top goalscorer
- Won first ever Euro for his country (1 out of 1)
- Won 2 major trophy for his country (2 out of 2)
- Only player who score in 5 Euro + 5 WC
- Euro all time top scorer
- Euro Golden Boot

vs

- all time South American top scorer
- Won 1 Copa for his country (1 out of 15)
- Won 1 Olympic for his country (u-23)
- WC Golden Ball

But if Messi finally wins this WC for Argentina, sure it’s Messi.

Ronaldo has never won the Euro golden shoe.

You also conveniently left out a few key highlights of Messi’s international career:

- all time South American top scorer
- Won 1 Copa for his country (1 out of 15)
- Won 1 Olympic for his country (u-23)
- WC Golden Ball
- Most man of the match awards at a WC (since being recorded 1966)
- Most assists in WC knockout stages (since being recorded 1966)
- Best player award at Copa America 2015 and 2021
- Top goalscorer award at Copa America 2021

 

[Nick7]

Messi. With the Copa win, it was settled. Now another semi final as the star man. It is not even close.

1 Copa vs 1 Euros?

 

[Kinsella]

Right now I still think Ronaldo has better international career. Reasons?

- all time international top goalscorer
- Won first ever Euro for his country (1 out of 1)
- Won 2 major trophy for his country (2 out of 2)
- Only player who score in 5 Euro + 5 WC
- Euro all time top scorer
- Euro Golden Boot

vs

- all time South American top scorer
- Won 1 Copa for his country (1 out of 15)
- Won 1 Olympic for his country (u-23)
- WC Golden Ball

But if Messi finally wins this WC for Argentina, sure it’s Messi.

2 major trophies?

 

[Nick7]

2 major trophies?

Nations league

 

[Ish]

Imagine Messi gets Argentina to another final and they lose against an excellent French side. I don’t agree with this “has to win WC” as a barrier but I do understand it because we need criteria, of sorts, I guess. But the margins of winning versus losing these finals are so tiny and it’s a team sport. Higuain finishes his chance, Argentina wins 2014. Eder doesn’t score for Portugal against Fra, Ronaldo has no international trophy. It’s weird. You could literally do nothing and your team can go on to carry you to a win and yet it’ll be a star next to your name (in these debates anyway). Surely you take the performance, as a whole, into account and not just a one off match which could go either way.

 

[Ish]

2 major trophies?

National league

Nick beat me to it, damnit!

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Messi.

I don't see how people can argue for Ronaldo in this.

In the sport's biggest stage, Ronaldo has heavily underperformed at the WC. Meanwhile Messi might be the 1st player to win 2 Golden Balls at the WC and has led Argentina to another semi-final.

Ronaldo has never won a Golden Ball at the Euros nor the WC. Messi has 3 such awards(2 Copa Golden Balls and 1 WC Golden Ball).

 

[Tacitus56AD]

Messi.

I don't see how people can argue for Ronaldo in this.

In the sport's biggest stage, Ronaldo has heavily underperformed at the WC. Meanwhile Messi might be the 1st player to win 2 Golden Balls at the WC and has led Argentina to another semi-final.

Ronaldo has never won a Golden Ball at the Euros nor the WC. Messi has 3 such awards(2 Copa Golden Balls and 1 WC Golden Ball).

Messi did not deserve the 2014 golden ball, should have been won by a german, but there you see how irrelevent those trophies are.
But comparing Ronaldo and Messi on the international stage is like comparing two mid-table-teams who do not matter much regarding the outcome.

 

[Kinsella]

Nations league

I suspected that’s what he was referring to, but that’s just evidence of that ‘lies, damned lies, and statistics’ phrase.

The only thing people succeed in doing when citing the Nations League as a ‘major trophy’ is to make themselves look silly.

 

[Nick7]

I suspected that’s what he was referring to, but that’s just evidence of that ‘lies, damned lies, and statistics’ phrase.

The only thing people succeed in doing when citing the Nations League is to make themselves look silly.

Might as well start adding summer friendly trophies into the conversation for clubs then.

 

[bosnian_red]

Messi. With the Copa win, it was settled. Now another semi final as the star man. It is not even close.

I don't see how it was settled with the Copa win when Ronaldo already had a Euros win, with the Euros being a MUCH more difficult and prestigious competition. And more organized, whereas the Copa they just kept throwing random competitions in to give Messi more chances at a win. It's a competition that's supposed to be held every 4 years like the Euros and yet, they had it in 2004, 2007, 2011, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2021... Like come on. You just start losing respect for it.

Messi has probably had the better international career, but it's basically decided on the back of this world cup semi final. Ronaldo was a key player on 2006 when they made the semis. Messi made the final once, but lost. That was the difference before now in their world cup careers, which is basically an irrelevant difference as they lost anyway.

It's not a question of who is the better player. There is no contest there. But who has achieved more in their international careers is a fair question. Ronaldo has more goals in the Euros (and is record goalscorer) in fewer matches than Messi has in the Copa America for example (where he isn't the record goalscorer). Ronaldo is the all time international top scorer. Both of those points probably even out the minuscule difference in their world cup careers... But if Argentina make the final, then it's hard to argue against Messi. If they win the thing, then it's clearly Messi.

 

[bosnian_red]

Imagine Messi gets Argentina to another final and they lose against an excellent French side. I don’t agree with this “has to win WC” as a barrier but I do understand it because we need criteria, of sorts, I guess. But the margins of winning versus losing these finals are so tiny and it’s a team sport. Higuain finishes his chance, Argentina wins 2014. Eder doesn’t score for Portugal against Fra, Ronaldo has no international trophy. It’s weird. You could literally do nothing and your team can go on to carry you to a win and yet it’ll be a star next to your name (in these debates anyway). Surely you take the performance, as a whole, into account and not just a one off match which could go either way.

When it comes to the greatest, the line has to be getting over the line. Can't make excuses in a "the greatest" conversation.

 

[RedRonaldo]

2 major trophies?

Nations league

Apparently it’s not anywhere as prestigious as WC and Euro as there is no history, but it’s still a trophy complete by all top football nations in Europe with a winner crowned every 2 years.

And I also did include Olympics in comparison, which is far worse as it’s mainly a u-23 trophy.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Messi. He's been one of the main players at two WCs now. Probably would have been another if he didn't have Maradona 'managing' thr NT. He's always played well (sometimes as the very best) in the Copas lifting it once.

Ronaldo has also had a great NT career but one hat trick aside hes always been a Peripheral figure at WCs and I'd argue that hes never actually been one of very best at any major international tournament.

Neither will have a WC so the international debate will go on even if one is better in general.

 

[bosnian_red]

Also let's stop bringing up the opponent's played on the way to their goal totals... It's not like Messi and Argentina don't play their fair share of scrubs too just like Portugal

 

[amolbhatia50k]

When it comes to the greatest, the line has to be getting over the line. Can't make excuses in a "the greatest" conversation.

Nope. When it comes to winning a WC you have get over the line but if we're judging great footballers then the weight of their work is to be considered. I mean it's not as if we can disregard Maradona's club achievements or goalscoring qualities because he didn't win 10 league titles or play for a modern super club.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Might as well start adding summer friendly trophies into the conversation for clubs then.

Yeah. That was laughable

Messi. He's been one of the main players at two WCs now. Probably would have been another if he didn't have Maradona 'managing' thr NT. He's always played well (sometimes as the very best) in the Copas lifting it once.

Ronaldo has also had a great NT career but one hat trick aside hes always been a Peripheral figure at WCs and I'd argue that hes never actually been one of very best at any major international tournament.

Neither will have a WC so the international debate will go on even if one is better in general.

Ronaldo has been relatively awful at the highest stage of international football. 5 non penalty goals across 5 tournaments with 2 total assists.

Messi not only has led his team to a further stage at the world cup than Ronaldo managed to, but has 2 world cups during which he was better than Ronaldo ever managed to be during any of his appearances.

He also has 17 goal contributions to Ronaldo's 10.
7 KO stage contributions Vs Ronaldo's 0.
10 MOM awards Vs Ronaldo's 1.
His average match rating is much higher.

As far as the Copa vs Euros go, he led Argentina to the Copa IN Brazil while being top scorer AND top assister. Ronaldo didn't even play in Portugal's hardest match against France.

This isn't a debate. It's so one sided.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Messi.

I don't see how people can argue for Ronaldo in this.

In the sport's biggest stage, Ronaldo has heavily underperformed at the WC. Meanwhile Messi might be the 1st player to win 2 Golden Balls at the WC and has led Argentina to another semi-final.

Ronaldo has never won a Golden Ball at the Euros nor the WC. Messi has 3 such awards(2 Copa Golden Balls and 1 WC Golden Ball).

And has never sniffed one. Its amazing to think that he played 10 international tournaments and never really came close to being the top performer during any of them.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

It's not even close. Ronaldo by a mile

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah. That was laughable



Ronaldo has been relatively awful at the highest stage of international football. 5 non penalty goals across 5 tournaments with 2 total assists.

Messi not only has led his team to a further stage at the world cup than Ronaldo managed to, but has 2 world cups during which he was better than Ronaldo ever managed to be during any of his appearances.

He also has 17 goal contributions to Ronaldo's 10.
7 KO stage contributions Vs Ronaldo's 0.
10 MOM awards Vs Ronaldo's 1.
His average match rating is much higher.

As far as the Copa vs Euros go, he led Argentina to the Copa IN Brazil while being top scorer AND top assister. Ronaldo didn't even play in Portugal's hardest match against France.

This isn't a debate. It's so one sided.

Is this correct? I thought it was much lower

 

[Mike Smalling]

Assuming Messi plays both the semi-final and final/3rd place game, he will reach 26 games at World Cup finals and beat Lothar Matthäus' current record of 25. Great achievement.

 

[bosnian_red]

Nope. When it comes to winning a WC you have get over the line but if we're judging great footballers then the weight of their work is to be considered. I mean it's not as if we can disregard Maradona's club achievements or goalscoring qualities because he didn't win 10 league titles or play for a modern super club.

Greatest player is not the same as greatest career for me. The latter is really more just what did you achieve with your country, and goal totals... And I think it's jusy very similar between the two when you weigh the WC achievements being in favor of Messi, the Euro achievements being in favor of Ronaldo for me (reasons listed in post above), and Ronaldo being the all time top international goalscorer.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Is this even a debate now?


The guy's method is playing as many games as possible against minnows and inflating his record.. He is nowhere near Gerd Muller who scored 68 goals in 62 games at a time where you did not have minnows like Andorra, Faroe, San Marino, ex Soviet nations etc., basically Ronaldo's favorites.. Hell, even Lukaku has a better per game goal ratio than this fraud..

As in the words of great Eusebio

"The comparisons make me sad. It's easier now. I never played against Liechtenstein and Azerbaijan".

"It's wrong. There is no comparison. I scored my 41 goals in 60 games. It's easier now because you play more games against weak teams."

https://www.marca.com/2013/09/11/en/football/international_football/1378917585.html

Gerd Muller scored 10 goals and assisted 3 in the 1970 world cup.

To put this into perspective, Ronaldo has 8 total career world cup goals (only 5 non penalty goals) across 5 different tournaments, with 2 assists.

Muller in a single tournament had more goals and more assists than Ronaldo's total world cup career worth of goals and assists combined.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Is this correct? I thought it was much lower

2 goals and the all time world cup record of 5 assists that he set last match.
Assisted against Mexico in 2010.
Assisted Di Maria with that famous half way line through ball in 2014.
2 assists against France in 2018.
The no-look assist against the Netherlands.

His next goal has to be one more assist to tie Maradona's all time record of 8.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Greatest player is not the same as greatest career for me. The latter is really more just what did you achieve with your country, and goal totals... And I think it's jusy very similar between the two when you weigh the WC achievements being in favor of Messi, the Euro achievements being in favor of Ronaldo for me (reasons listed in post above), and Ronaldo being the all time top international goalscorer.

I don't care about greatest career tbh (in this context). That's usually more down to your team mates / circumstances. It's more relevant to see what the individuals when discussing them rather than how the team / collective shaped up. Unless it's a discussion about respective NTs.

 

[Ish]

When it comes to the greatest, the line has to be getting over the line. Can't make excuses in a "the greatest" conversation.

Yeah i get that, i was just questioning the legitimacy thereof in a team sport, that's all. Especially considering these fine margins which usually separates the 2 teams.