Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?

tomaldinho1

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Everyone knows this.

Also, Messi has had exactly one more chance to win a continental tournament than Ronaldo.
Just as apparently everyone knows Beckenbauer isn’t in the conversation for the GOAT because he was a defender…

Player of the tournament is irrelevant, no one remembers them, no one really cares about them in isolation and they’re also subjective.
 

Andrade

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Your list is yours, it's not factual. Beckenbauer has been considered one of the greatest player of all time and arguably the best European of his generation by a lot of people for a long time. It's largely accepted that Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Platini were in the same tier.
I've explained it very clearly and yet you still persist in misunderstanding.
 

Andrade

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Just as apparently everyone knows Beckenbauer isn’t in the conversation for the GOAT because he was a defender…

Player of the tournament is irrelevant, no one remembers them, no one really cares about them in isolation and they’re also subjective.
Find me one person anywhere (journalist, player, manager etc.) who has ever said that Franz Beckenbauer is the greatest player of all time, above all others. I'll wait.

POTTs are not at all irrelevant, and they are remembered, so you're wrong. However, it's what they signify rather than the award itself. Same with any MVP award in any sport.
 

tomaldinho1

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Find me one person anywhere (journalist, player, manager etc.) who has ever said that Franz Beckenbauer is the greatest player of all time, above all others. I'll wait.

POTTs are not at all irrelevant, and they are remembered, so you're wrong. However, it's what they signify rather than the award itself. Same with any MVP award in any sport.
You are genuinely just being weird now, no one has ever put emphasis on POTT in football. Obviously if a player wins it, you can assume they've had a good tournament but this is the first time I think I've ever seen anyone try and claim it is a prestigious award and everyone will remember who the players of each tournament were. Are you from the US out of interest, I know MVP in basketball for example is genuine thing they make a big deal of and I'm not sure if you're just assuming it's the same in football?

Re Beckenbauer, that's sadly like asking a load of random people on the street who the GOAT is, very few if any will say Pele given so much time has passed. If there any elderly gents on here who followed the BL closely I'd wager he'd still pop up though; won the CL equivalent 3 times in a row, basically created a whole new role, won euros, world cup where he dominated Cruyff and 2 ballon d'ors.

Also, one your point about Messi having had 'only' 1 more opportunity - that's still one more chance at a tournament that takes place every 4 years for European teams.
 

Andrade

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You are genuinely just being weird now, no one has ever put emphasis on POTT in football. Obviously if a player wins it, you can assume they've had a good tournament but this is the first time I think I've ever seen anyone try and claim it is a prestigious award and everyone will remember who the players of each tournament were. Are you from the US out of interest, I know MVP in basketball for example is genuine thing they make a big deal of and I'm not sure if you're just assuming it's the same in football?
No I'm not from the US

Re Beckenbauer, that's sadly like asking a load of random people on the street who the GOAT is, very few if any will say Pele given so much time has passed. If there any elderly gents on here who followed the BL closely I'd wager he'd still pop up though; won the CL equivalent 3 times in a row, basically created a whole new role, won euros, world cup where he dominated Cruyff and 2 ballon d'ors.
So you couldn't find any player, manager, commentator or journalist who thinks Franz is the greatest player of all time, above all others? Thought so.

By the way, he 'dominated' Cruyff in the 74 world cup? Um, what? Cruyff was absolutely sublime in that competition. There's a difference between how you perform individually and whether or not your team wins. Which is why these awards are sometimes useful.

Also, one your point about Messi having had 'only' 1 more opportunity - that's still one more chance at a tournament that takes place every 4 years for European teams.
So he had six chances instead of 5. Massive difference
 

tomaldinho1

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No I'm not from the US



So you couldn't find any player, manager, commentator or journalist who thinks Franz is the greatest player of all time, above all others? Thought so.

By the way, he 'dominated' Cruyff in the 74 world cup? Um, what? Cruyff was absolutely sublime in that competition. There's a difference between how you perform individually and whether or not your team wins. Which is why these awards are sometimes useful.



So he had six chances instead of 5. Massive difference
Ok then it’s weird you refer to it as MVP then.

Your double standards are painful - you’re now saying Beckenbauer wasn’t good individually but his team did well when they won the WC because Cruyff was sublime in that comp (despite Beckenbauer nullifying him in the final which I have no idea how you think that isn’t individual ability). It’s a rivalry that is ironically compared to Ronaldo and Messi if you just do some basic googling and more unique because of how good a CB had to be to be in the conversation with Cruyff. If you say Cruyff is in the conversation for the GOAT but his rival isn’t it comes back to your awful post that stated he can’t be the GOAT because he’s a defender.

Re Copa v Euros I guess you are unaware 6 is more than 5? It wouldn’t be that big a factor if Argentina didn’t underperform so often but if Portugal and Argentina have only won their continental comp once and one is in a better team, has less competition and has had more cracks at winning it do you see how, quite possibly, that might factor into someone’s reasoning when comparing the two?
 

Andrade

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Ok then it’s weird you refer to it as MVP then.
It's understandable shorthand. Like POTT. Nothing to do with any US connection.

Your double standards are painful - you’re now saying Beckenbauer wasn’t good individually but his team did well when they won the WC because Cruyff was sublime in that comp (despite Beckenbauer nullifying him in the final which I have no idea how you think that isn’t individual ability). It’s a rivalry that is ironically compared to Ronaldo and Messi if you just do some basic googling and more unique because of how good a CB had to be to be in the conversation with Cruyff. If you say Cruyff is in the conversation for the GOAT but his rival isn’t it comes back to your awful post that stated he can’t be the GOAT because he’s a defender.
Why's that awful? The hyperbolic language doesn't help. The handful of people generally considered to be GOAT candidates (i.e. thought as possibly the greatest player ever: I'm still waiting for you to provide an example of someone describing Beckenbauer as such) are all attacking players. That's just how it works. Doesn't mean that great defenders/midfielders/goalkeepers are not appreciated or thought of as among the greats.

Re Copa v Euros I guess you are unaware 6 is more than 5? It wouldn’t be that big a factor if Argentina didn’t underperform so often but if Portugal and Argentina have only won their continental comp once and one is in a better team, has less competition and has had more cracks at winning it do you see how, quite possibly, that might factor into someone’s reasoning when comparing the two?
Said it before and I'll say it again. Argentina have won it twice in 60 years (before 2021). But nevertheless, teams win trophies, not single players. Who has been better individually? Messi in the Copa or Ronaldo in the Euros? Who has had better performances?
 

tomaldinho1

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It's understandable shorthand. Like POTT. Nothing to do with any US connection.



Why's that awful? The hyperbolic language doesn't help. The handful of people generally considered to be GOAT candidates (i.e. thought as possibly the greatest player ever: I'm still waiting for you to provide an example of someone describing Beckenbauer as such) are all attacking players. That's just how it works. Doesn't mean that great defenders/midfielders/goalkeepers are not appreciated or thought of as among the greats.



Said it before and I'll say it again. Argentina have won it twice in 60 years (before 2021). But nevertheless, teams win trophies, not single players. Who has been better individually? Messi in the Copa or Ronaldo in the Euros? Who has had better performances?
You’re keep saying that as if I need to go and prove he is amongst the goats, I feel like you might need to just educate yourself slightly. You’re right attacking players are the usual suspects which makes it so much more unique when a player like Beckenbauer is spoken about in the same vein.

So you want to ignore all the context given and just go on individual performances…makes sense. Even then, as said before, both average compared to their club form - Ronaldo has been top scorer twice and played one less than Messi who has been top scorer once. Messi was booed by his own fans in one from memory which doesn’t do him any favours. Again you seem to be just ignoring the fact Messi literally had an extra tournament as well.
 

GinobiliTheGOAT

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You’re keep saying that as if I need to go and prove he is amongst the goats, I feel like you might need to just educate yourself slightly. You’re right attacking players are the usual suspects which makes it so much more unique when a player like Beckenbauer is spoken about in the same vein.

So you want to ignore all the context given and just go on individual performances…makes sense. Even then, as said before, both average compared to their club form - Ronaldo has been top scorer twice and played one less than Messi who has been top scorer once. Messi was booed by his own fans in one from memory which doesn’t do him any favours. Again you seem to be just ignoring the fact Messi literally had an extra tournament as well.
Messi has had more assists though, using goals as the only metric is a poor way of looking at it.
 

Andrade

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You’re keep saying that as if I need to go and prove he is amongst the goats, I feel like you might need to just educate yourself slightly. You’re right attacking players are the usual suspects which makes it so much more unique when a player like Beckenbauer is spoken about in the same vein.

I'm confident that there's absolutely nothing you can tell me about Beckenbauer that I don't already know. What's more, I've likely watched more footage of him actually playing than you. Maybe you like watching old matches as much as i do but most people don't. Have you seen the World Cup final in 74 that you were referencing? Or the rest of the Dutch and German games in that tournament? If you want to persist in misunderstanding what I'm saying, that's up to you.

So you want to ignore all the context given and just go on individual performances…makes sense. Even then, as said before, both average compared to their club form - Ronaldo has been top scorer twice and played one less than Messi who has been top scorer once. Messi was booed by his own fans in one from memory which doesn’t do him any favours. Again you seem to be just ignoring the fact Messi literally had an extra tournament as well.
Please try actually watching the games next time. Then you can talk about the performances and not 'who was top scorer' in a 6 player tie with 3 goals in 2012 etc.
 

Bobski

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Lists.

Diminish everyone else, their career, achievements and competition for the goal of elevating your favourite to the top of an imaginary list which is like, just your opinion man.
 

Bebestation

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I am Biased but still -

I always expected Argentina to win more Copa’s with Messi in the team. I also felt that teams like Brazil were much weaker than normal over the last decade or 2.

The whole Argentinian fans loving Maradona more than Messi kind of shows how I feel.
 

tomaldinho1

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Messi has had more assists though, using goals as the only metric is a poor way of looking at it.
Agreed - for attacking players goal involvements is probably the best thing to use. Even that’s not really that accurate given how many penalties both scored but it’s a start. Not player of the tournament.
 

tomaldinho1

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I'm confident that there's absolutely nothing you can tell me about Beckenbauer that I don't already know. What's more, I've likely watched more footage of him actually playing than you. Maybe you like watching old matches as much as i do but most people don't. Have you seen the World Cup final in 74 that you were referencing? Or the rest of the Dutch and German games in that tournament? If you want to persist in misunderstanding what I'm saying, that's up to you.



Please try actually watching the games next time. Then you can talk about the performances and not 'who was top scorer' in a 6 player tie with 3 goals in 2012 etc.
I’m going to call your bluff here. I love football and have watched a lot of old games including the WC final I referenced as well as some general W Germany or Netherlands ones but I have not, nor do I believe you have, specially watched all the Netherlands and W Germany games from WC 74 & all the Copas and all the Euros games from Argentina and Portugal. I’m not saying someone can’t watch more than me, it’s very possible, but that’s an unholy amount of football to watch back and highly specific to these players (therefore I’m assuming you basically are watching back all old games?). If I search your post history I’m going to assume your likely a Barcelona expert given you’re very vocal about Messi as well amongst other teams and countries?
 

Andrade

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I’m going to call your bluff here. I love football and have watched a lot of old games including the WC final I referenced as well as some general W Germany or Netherlands ones but I have not, nor do I believe you have, specially watched all the Netherlands and W Germany games from WC 74 & all the Copas and all the Euros games from Argentina and Portugal. I’m not saying someone can’t watch more than me, it’s very possible, but that’s an unholy amount of football to watch back and highly specific to these players (therefore I’m assuming you basically are watching back all old games?). If I search your post history I’m going to assume your likely a Barcelona expert given you’re very vocal about Messi as well amongst other teams and countries?
I wouldn't call myself a Barca or Messi expert at all. I've seen all the games referenced because I watch the big teams at major tournaments (which obviously includes Portugal and Argentina) but I don't claim to have seen every World Cup game or Euros/Copa game of course. I would say I've watched a lot of games from WCs 70, 74, 82 and 86 in particular.
 

tomaldinho1

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I wouldn't call myself a Barca or Messi expert at all. I've seen all the games referenced because I watch the big teams at major tournaments (which obviously includes Portugal and Argentina) but I don't claim to have seen every World Cup game or Euros/Copa game of course. I would say I've watched a lot of games from WCs 70, 74, 82 and 86 in particular.
That’s so much football it’s seems unrealistic unless your job is related. If you’re including Portugal as a big team, given they’re currently ranked 9th and average position is about 9th since Ronaldo has been there, you’re watching an obscene amount of football.

Take the Euros just gone, you watched all of Italy, England, Belgium, France, Netherlands, Germany, Croatia, Spain, Portugal games which is 35 full games….

Then add in the Copa ran parallel so you’re moonlighting to watch Brasil and Argentina…

Look, this is an anonymous online forum,I’ll leave it here. If you have watched all these games, I still think it’s very strange to put so much emphasis on POTT. If you’ve embellished the truth a little, no worries.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Beckenbauer is the most underrated of all the usual suspects in the GOAT discussions.

There are very good reasons for considering him a more complete footballer than...anyone, including Cruyff.

And his resume is - obviously - insane. He won everything major - and he did it under conditions/in circumstances which cannot be questioned at all.

(Sure, he was lucky to play for an immensely strong national team - but then again, he was the biggest reason why they were so strong in the first place.)
 

Andrade

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That’s so much football it’s seems unrealistic unless your job is related. If you’re including Portugal as a big team, given they’re currently ranked 9th and average position is about 9th since Ronaldo has been there, you’re watching an obscene amount of football.

Take the Euros just gone, you watched all of Italy, England, Belgium, France, Netherlands, Germany, Croatia, Spain, Portugal games which is 35 full games….

Then add in the Copa ran parallel so you’re moonlighting to watch Brasil and Argentina…

Look, this is an anonymous online forum,I’ll leave it here. If you have watched all these games, I still think it’s very strange to put so much emphasis on POTT. If you’ve embellished the truth a little, no worries.
I don't think that's a lot of games at all, these are events that last a few weeks and come around once every 4 years. Yes, even the Copa mostly follows that pattern. It's not like you have to watch that much football all year round every year. What you've listed amounts to about 2 thirds of the total matches in the Euros and I'm sure that there are many people that watch more than that.

The thread is about who has had the better international career. What the POTT award symbolises is the point, because there was not always a POTT award given out in the past (pre the 80s) but there was generally a consensus about who the standout player was in the competition, e.g. Pele in 1970, Cruyff in 74, Maradona in 86 etc. Some of these guys were given awards retrospectively.

is it always perfect? Obviously not, but in this case, they've both played so many tournaments that you can get a good picture. With this debate, one player has 3 such awards, the other has zero. If you don't think that matters, then that's up to you. But I know Maradona's WC Golden ball certainly mattered to him. Check out the story about it being stolen and melted down by the Mafia......
 
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Mr.Plow

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God, worst thing about him coming back is these stupid Ronaldo Vs Messi debates constantly popping up in your feed.
 

Red the Bear

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Beckenbauer is the most underrated of all the usual suspects in the GOAT discussions.

There are very good reasons for considering him a more complete footballer than...anyone, including Cruyff.

And his resume is - obviously - insane. He won everything major - and he did it under conditions/in circumstances which cannot be questioned at all.

(Sure, he was lucky to play for an immensely strong national team - but then again, he was the biggest reason why they were so strong in the first place.)
Well he's a defensive player so that automatically drops him a place or two in those rankings.

He was also lucky having the likes of that mad bomber Muller with him.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Well he's a defensive player so that automatically drops him a place or two in those rankings.
Yeah, that's obvious. But not - let's say - logical.

And even if we accept that "defensive" players are inherently inferior to "offensive" players, Beckenbauer wasn't - by any stretch - a purely "defensive" player.

He was also lucky having the likes of that mad bomber Muller with him.
Or the other way around.

To me, at least, Müller is one of the greatest strikers/CFs ever. He's up against - say - Van Basten or Ronaldo in that discussion. But he isn't a GOAT (overall) candidate. He doesn't compare to Maradona or Messi in that regard.

Beckenbauer, on the other hand, isn't up against - say - Baresi, Moore or Figueroa as the greatest CB (of whatever exact description) ever. He - clearly, for me - transcends that.

He's the only nominal "defender" who could possibly enter a GOAT (overall) discussion - but/and that is precisely what he does (in my opinion).

To me, it's absurd to count Cruyff as a genuine GOAT candidate - and at the same time dismiss Beckenbauer as a "defender" who isn't one (a GOAT candidate, that is).
 

Red the Bear

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Yeah, that's obvious. But not - let's say - logical.

And even if we accept that "defensive" players are inherently inferior to "offensive" players, Beckenbauer wasn't - by any stretch - a purely "defensive" player.



Or the other way around.

To me, at least, Müller is one of the greatest strikers/CFs ever. He's up against - say - Van Basten or Ronaldo in that discussion. But he isn't a GOAT (overall) candidate. He doesn't compare to Maradona or Messi in that regard.

Beckenbauer, on the other hand, isn't up against - say - Baresi, Moore or Figueroa as the greatest CB (of whatever exact description) ever. He - clearly, for me - transcends that.

He's the only nominal "defender" who could possibly enter a GOAT (overall) discussion - but/and that is precisely what he does (in my opinion).

To me, it's absurd to count Cruyff as a genuine GOAT candidate - and at the same time dismiss Beckenbauer as a "defender" who isn't one (a GOAT candidate, that is).
Obviously I don't think like that either, defensive players are by no means inferior but it's just the way it is, we have a tendency to focus on the flashier parts of the game and that includes offensive players, ballon d'or rankings also reflect that, perhaps it's because a good defender is the one you don't notice due to him not making any mistakes while it's easier to notice effective attackers.

In regards to Beckenbauer I think the reason he's mostly ranked below cryuff is his country, Germany has gone on to win a further 2 world cups(one under his regin funnily enough) so it does make his achievements less singular than it might have been, another is that his bayern and Germany team never exuded the unstoppable aura that cryuff did at his time in ajax and the national team and even though he beat them in the final , Germany were by most accounts the underdogs, same with his European cup Treble were if I'm not mistaken some of the finals needed replays so a lot less dominant than ajax.

Add to the fact that cryuff seemingly introduced a complete new brand of football (not entirely true) and its easy to see why he gets overlooked.

But those are only public perceptions, to me he's clearly top of the the European list of the greatest players among Cruyff and the likes of plattini , but he doesn't quite reach the heights that the likes of Maradona reached.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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But those are only public perceptions, to me he's clearly top of the the European list of the greatest players among Cruyff and the likes of plattini , but he doesn't quite reach the heights that the likes of Maradona reached.
To be clear, you'd have Beckenbauer as the greatest European player ever?

(Also - good post, I appreciate your reasoning even if I don't agree with it 100%.)
 

Red the Bear

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To be clear, you'd have Beckenbauer as the greatest European player ever?

(Also - good post, I appreciate your reasoning even if I don't agree with it 100%.)
I've considered it, my list isn't defined as I have no idea how to place Ronaldo whom ranges from being top 3 to outside of the top 5.

Ronaldo notwithstanding i think it's fair to put cryuff and Beckenbauer at the very top of European football pyramid, either could top the list for me.
 

Andrade

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Obviously I don't think like that either, defensive players are by no means inferior but it's just the way it is, we have a tendency to focus on the flashier parts of the game and that includes offensive players, ballon d'or rankings also reflect that, perhaps it's because a good defender is the one you don't notice due to him not making any mistakes while it's easier to notice effective attacker.

In regards to Beckenbauer I think the reason he's mostly ranked below cryuff is his country, Germany has gone on to win a further 2 world cups(one under his regin funnily enough) so it does make his achievements less singular than it might have been, another is that his bayern and Germany team never exuded the unstoppable aura that cryuff did at his time in ajax and the national team and even though he beat them in the final , Germany were by most accounts the underdogs, same with his European cup Treble were if I'm not mistaken some of the finals needed replays so a lot less dominant than ajax.

Add to the fact that cryuff seemingly introduced a complete new brand of football (not entirely true) and its easy to see why he gets overlooked.

But those are only public perceptions, to me he's clearly top of the the European list of the greatest players among Cruyff and the likes of plattini , but he doesn't quite reach the heights that the likes of Maradona reached.
Genius offensive players capture the imagination more. That's the way it's always been and always will be. Doesn't mean that one can't appreciate and admire a great defender.
 

Gehrman

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Genius offensive players capture the imagination more. That's the way it's always been and always will be. Doesn't mean that one can't appreciate and admire a great defender.
But wasn't Beckenbauer a good old sweeper who carries the ball up the pitch compared to a modern cb?
 

Andrade

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But wasn't Beckenbauer a good old sweeper who carries the ball up the pitch compared to a modern cb?
Yeah, he's known for being a cb and sweeper, but he also played in midfield. All time great player, elegant style, tremendous leader. But doesn't have the magic of a Pele, and I'm pretty sure he'd say that himself.
 

Gehrman

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Yeah, he's known for being a cb and sweeper, but he also played in midfield. All time great player, elegant style, tremendous leader. But doesn't have the magic of a Pele, and I'm pretty sure he'd say that himself.
No doubt about that. Pelé nutmegged Beckenbauer and put him on his ass.
 

big rons sovereign

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It's pretty even isn't it. They've both got a continental win, both scored and assisted ridiculous amounts.
But Pele has 3 world cups and shits on both of them.
 

Maluco

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It's pretty even isn't it. They've both got a continental win, both scored and assisted ridiculous amounts.
But Pele has 3 world cups and shits on both of them.
To be fair, neither Messi or Ronaldo had the quality of players around them that Pele had internationally, at any point. It’s not even close. It’s a massive gulf.

When they had (at club level), they also did really special things.
 

Gehrman

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To be fair, neither Messi or Ronaldo had the quality of players around them that Pele had internationally, at any point. It’s not even close. It’s a massive gulf.

When they had (at club level), they also did really special things.
True, but Ronaldo or Messi into any of the worlds great international teams at they would have had a WC too. However their lack of iconic individual performances goes against. Even someone like Diego Forlan had a greater world cup than either of them. You could argue Modric as well or Sneijder.
 

Maluco

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True, but Ronaldo or Messi into any of the worlds great international teams at they would have had a WC too. However their lack of iconic individual performances goes against. Even someone like Diego Forlan had a greater world cup than either of them. You could argue Modric as well or Sneijder.
It definitely deserves praise and recognition in the comparison, but Argentina and Portugal probably never entered a World Cup as even in the top 5 best teams in the tournament. They were playing guys like Rojo and Bosingwa, which would have been laughable for Brazil.

Brazil, at that time, had an embarrassment of riches and were far and away the best team in the world. It’s an amazing feat, but I think context is important, because very often, both Portugal and Argentina didn’t have the players to play styles that could have gotten better performances from their star players.

Messi, in particular, has been better at a World Cup than Forlan was, but the expectation is so high, even in a poor side totally depending on him to do something, that it’s hard to criticize them for not being able to achieve a truly great World Cup. There was just so much against both of them.
 

RedRonaldo

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True, but Ronaldo or Messi into any of the worlds great international teams at they would have had a WC too. However their lack of iconic individual performances goes against. Even someone like Diego Forlan had a greater world cup than either of them. You could argue Modric as well or Sneijder.
I think Modric WC is overrated. He has outstanding games in group stage, but not so much in knockout stage.
 

Gehrman

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It definitely deserves praise and recognition in the comparison, but Argentina and Portugal probably never entered a World Cup as even in the top 5 best teams in the tournament. They were playing guys like Rojo and Bosingwa, which would have been laughable for Brazil.

Brazil, at that time, had an embarrassment of riches and were far and away the best team in the world. It’s an amazing feat, but I think context is important, because very often, both Portugal and Argentina didn’t have the players to play styles that could have gotten better performances from their star players.

Messi, in particular, has been better at a World Cup than Forlan was, but the expectation is so high, even in a poor side totally depending on him to do something, that it’s hard to criticize them for not being able to achieve a truly great World Cup. There was just so much against both of them.
Messi's goals came mostly against trash opposition. He was decent but not in anyway outstanding against Belgium, Holland and Germany. Forlans screamers are more memorable. Anyway it was just off the top of my head. I could mention Mpabbe as well, but he plays for a stellar side.
 
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