Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[FK201617]

To all those who said Portugal had no history in WC pre-Cristiano Ronaldo, don't forget that Portugal won the bronze medal in 1966 WC.
It's NOT a tall order at all to expect Cristiano Ronaldo to lead Portugal to at least reach quarter final once in five WCs, if semi-final is too much to ask. We are talking about Portugal here, not Iran, Costa Rica or Iceland. However he failed to achieve that.

Not to mention zero goal and zero assist in eight WC knockout games. Don't tell me it is not an absolutely abysmal record. For God's sake even Neuer has an assist in WC knockout stage!

 

[NoPace]

On a more serious note, I still find it hard to compare between eras. Messi is definitely the best player of this generation but too much has changed to compare him with Maradona, Pelé or, for me, R9, too. And I think it is wrong to change your opinion about him because he won a WC final. That game makes up less than 0.1% of his career.

Yeah, I think it sort of gets football wrong. There's 22 guys on the pitch and 30+ on the field in most games now. It's not about 1 guy being on the team that wins the most trophies, or everyone but the guys on the top 8-10 international teams would be disqualified.

It's more about the sheer quality of the player and if you feel their impact on the game, whether that's via obvious things like goals and assists, or running the midfield or being incredible defensively.

I have no idea exactly how good Maradona or Pele were, but I know how it feels when my team (or my team via gambling) is playing Messi or when I'm cheering for him (or rather against his opponents, typically) and when he made the wrong decision twice today (neither was so bad, but he'll have been disappointed) I was shocked. Comfortably the best player I've seen.

Mbappe vs Cristiano is an interesting debate to me, though, as they're much more similar. Messi was those guys but also prime Sneidjer or Cesc at the same goddamn time. Incredible.

 

[Zehner]

To be replaced by Mbappe one day probably

I don't think Mbappe has what it takes for that, as good as he is. Messi is on another planet in many aspects (decision making, close control, passing, ...). I also doubt that Mbappe will match Messi's peak season with 90+ goals and assists. That aside, Messi will most likely win his 8th Ballon d'Or now which means Mbappe will win none before he turns 25 which means to surpass Messi, Mbappe would need to win it every year until he turns 34. Messi by the way won his first with 21 and had already won 5 by the age of 25. Mbappe is also just at around 1/3 of Messi's career goals. He'd need to score around 30 goals a season for the next 12 years to match him. I think people underestimate a little bit how ridiculous Messi's peak and how high even his declined level was/is. And all of this is not even considering that Messi has much more to his game outside of goals.

Mbappe might end up with more WCs, though.

 

[Camilo]

Best player ever by a distance.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

That’s awkward considering Ronaldo is ahead of both but nice

This comment has already been argued with, but I can’t help laughing at this. It’s fine to TRY and justify that they are within the same league, but to hit back still and say Ronaldo is still ahead is just mindboggling.

I have never seen such blinded loyalty to player.

 

[bakalhau]

This thread was going so well from all sides until 2 pages ago

 

[mu4c_20le]

Just like Ronaldo has to thank Ramos for 2 of his ucl. Bitter bitter fanboy. Football is a team sport.

ask them if they prefer cl or wc

 

[Zehner]

Yeah, I think it sort of gets football wrong. There's 22 guys on the pitch and 30+ on the field in most games now. It's not about 1 guy being on the team that wins the most trophies, or everyone but the guys on the top 8-10 international teams would be disqualified.

It's more about the sheer quality of the player and if you feel their impact on the game, whether that's via obvious things like goals and assists, or running the midfield or being incredible defensively.

I have no idea exactly how good Maradona or Pele were, but I know how it feels when my team (or my team via gambling) is playing Messi or when I'm cheering for him (or rather against his opponents, typically) and when he made the wrong decision twice today (neither was so bad, but he'll have been disappointed) I was shocked. Comfortably the best player I've seen.

Mbappe vs Cristiano is an interesting debate to me, though, as they're much more similar. Messi was those guys but also prime Sneidjer or Cesc at the same goddamn time. Incredible.

Yes, exactly. In a sport with 22 players on the pitch at the same time, there's only so much even the best player out there could do. You could probably field Messi/Cristiano/whoever with 10 players from league 5 and let them play 11 from league 3 and they'd still lose comfortably.

But fo rmany, it is more about legacy than actual performances. What's definitely nice though is that his WC win takes the win out of the sails of these "he's not up there for me because he lacks a WC title" arguments. They were stupid to begin with but even assumung that flawed logic they're now no longer viable.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Feel very lucky to have watched his entire career. Only regret is not seeing him play in person.

I went to see a classico where Isco was the best player on the pitch

Messi And Ronaldo scored though. What a day that was!

 

[Ibi Dreams]

Messi is undoubtedly the best ever. Incredible game, incredible player, incredible career.

 

[RepardReece]

He's always been the best ever for me but this really puts distance on it, and his performances in every single game this world cup have cemented that.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Im happy Messi won this and the Copa with him contributing heavily. Ronaldo won the Euros in 2016 but he didn’t contribute heavily.

Also I think this gives Messi every single available international trophy.

 

[Pyroblazer]

I love how Portugal is now some minnow, beeing compared with fecking Norway
Portugal made a Euro 2000 semifinal, losing close against winner France in overtime and then reached the Euro final in 2004 and World Cup semifinal in 2006 with Ronaldo still beeing a whiny baby.
They won the Euro in 2016 with Ronaldo only showing up in a cameo against Hungary and not even playing the final. They just reached the QF again and should have made the semis at least, looking a better team without Ronaldo.
If Ronaldo would have performed better at the WC, they might actually have done better there too.

History doesn't matter. France hasn't won a World Cup before 1998 either. At the end of the day Portugal had one of the better teams in the last 20-25 years and that started before Ronaldo and will continue without him.
Norway on the other side hasn't made a international tournament in ages, just a silly comparison.

 

[Zen]

I don't think Mbappe has what it takes for that, as good as he is. Messi is on another planet in many aspects (decision making, close control, passing, ...). I also doubt that Mbappe will match Messi's peak season with 90+ goals and assists. That aside, Messi will most likely win his 8th Ballon d'Or now which means Mbappe will win none before he turns 25 which means to surpass Messi, Mbappe would need to win it every year until he turns 34. Messi by the way won his first with 21 and had already won 5 by the age of 25. Mbappe is also just at around 1/3 of Messi's career goals. He'd need to score around 30 goals a season for the next 12 years to match him. I think people underestimate a little bit how ridiculous Messi's peak and how high even his declined level was/is. And all of this is not even considering that Messi has much more to his game outside of goals.

Mbappe might end up with more WCs, though.

I don't think he can overtake him as a player, or on the Ballon d'Or front. But the goals thing and the "xx in xx years" ... seems to keep getting lower every time. 30 goals per year for 12 years doesn't even seem hard, even as his pace drops towards the end of that 12 years. Will he do it? Who knows, doubtful. But there's no way I'm writing Haaland ranking up serious numbers. I think both Mbappe and Haaland will go ahead of the tier of Lewandowski-Suarez-Zlatan with considerable ease, so that's not far off in itself, the rest is down to pure fitness, and ability to keep going.

 

[meamth]

Can we laugh at Ronaldo fans?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I don't think Mbappe has what it takes for that, as good as he is. Messi is on another planet in many aspects (decision making, close control, passing, ...). I also doubt that Mbappe will match Messi's peak season with 90+ goals and assists. That aside, Messi will most likely win his 8th Ballon d'Or now which means Mbappe will win none before he turns 25 which means to surpass Messi, Mbappe would need to win it every year until he turns 34. Messi by the way won his first with 21 and had already won 5 by the age of 25. Mbappe is also just at around 1/3 of Messi's career goals. He'd need to score around 30 goals a season for the next 12 years to match him. I think people underestimate a little bit how ridiculous Messi's peak and how high even his declined level was/is. And all of this is not even considering that Messi has much more to his game outside of goals.

Mbappe might end up with more WCs, though.

Mbappe is incredible, but just doesn't have Messi's innate talent. He can never surpass him as a footballer.

He might surpass Cristiano Ronaldo though. I didn't think he would, but his WC resume might be the best ever presuming he stays fit and France keep churning out talent.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It is, still. That's the nature of the beast, I suppose. The margins are soo fine and unquantifiable at the very top that you can have a preference for one or other while maintaining an air of reasonability. But someone who reckons Messi is the absolute greatest can now make exceptionally strong and objective arguments for practically every metric of greatness (maybe the strongest of all). Personally speaking, yes — he is the greatest and the best, by a slight but poignant margin. Just so complete in that he could score at a similar rate to Müller or Cristiano, dribble at a comparable level to Maradona or Best when they were on song, and slice open opposition defenses with an offensive passing range that rivaled the likes of Laudrup or Zico. No one else was as mindbogglingly good when you combine all three aspects of attacking play. When you consider that component with his legacy as the leading edge of one of the most fearsome and iconic teams of all time, personal and collective accomplishments (with this World Cup and the Golden Ball being the cherries on top), and staggering longevity (the wee fella has been the best or one of the very best for 15 years now), it's as close as you can get to an ironclad case. Then you have Mr. Pelé, the former “greatest footballer of all time” — the unsurpassed benchmark for half-a-century. Followed by Maradona, another “greatest footballer of all time” candidate and arguably the most profound talent in the history of the sport. And finally the duo of Beckenbauer and Di Stéfano to round off the subjective Top 5.

P.S. Cristiano is thereabouts too. Ditto Cruyff. Didn't mean to disparage him (or them). All of these were era-defining titans, no doubt about that — just ahead of Puskás, Platini, Baresi, Zico, Fenômeno, Xavi, Meazza, Best, Müller, Garrincha, Eusébio, van Basten, Zidane, Maldini, Charlton, Matthäus and other wonderful, wonderful masters of football.

This is well said but I think there have to be some caveats when comparing eras. Messi (and all modern players) benefit from such an advantage in training, nutrition, medical care, etc that someone like Pelé could only dream about so I don't think the longevity factor is as meaningful, at least not in raw terms. I think we will continue to see players playing at a high level well into their 30s, like Modric also at this WC (and we see it in other sports as well). It's just we're at about the end of the first generation that really benefits from these structural advantages over their entire careers.

It's also tough to look at the 21st-century superteams and really make a 1:1 comparison to say Maradona in the 80s when Serie A was considered the pinnacle of club football and with the rules surrounding foreign players, moving to a club like Napoli and winning Serie A twice with them was massive and looked at very differently than if Messi played for Newcastle in his prime.

That said, I do think Messi might just edge out Pelé for me too and Messi>Pelé>Maradona might be how I see things in the coming years but it's so close and the eras make it almost impossible to really make a definitive comparison. On the tier below, it's Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, and Cruyff for me and the other names you mentioned between 7-20 of an all-time list (although I'm also inclined to rate Modric up there with Xavi and Lothar right now). Also, can't forget a plug for Zico, who, based on some accounting, surpassed Messi's record goals in a calendar year back in 1979.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I don't think he can overtake him as a player, or on the Ballon d'Or front. But the goals thing and the "xx in xx years" ... seems to keep getting lower every time. 30 goals per year for 12 years doesn't even seem hard, even as his pace drops towards the end of that 12 years. Will he do it? Who knows, doubtful. But there's no way I'm writing Haaland ranking up serious numbers. I think both Mbappe and Haaland will go ahead of the tier of Lewandowski-Suarez-Zlatan with considerable ease, so that's not far off in itself, the rest is down to pure fitness, and ability to keep going.

Haaland might get in that tier.

I think Mbappe is arguably already ahead of that tier.

 

[r1z3mu]

You shouldn't make fun when people are down.

 

[NoPace]

Yes, exactly. In a sport with 22 players on the pitch at the same time, there's only so much even the best player out there could do. You could probably field Messi/Cristiano/whoever with 10 players from league 5 and let them play 11 from league 3 and they'd still lose comfortably.

But fo rmany, it is more about legacy than actual performances. What's definitely nice though is that his WC win takes the win out of the sails of these "he's not up there for me because he lacks a WC title" arguments. They were stupid to begin with but even assumung that flawed logic they're now no longer viable.

Yeah, it's not a satisfying argument, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

 

[That_Bloke]

Wonderful player and a fantastic part of the twilight of his career, didnt think he had it in him tbh, certinly after the first couple of games, but like the side, grew into the tournament.

Without doubt one of the greatest of all time, been lucky to have seen him so often with satellite and the internet unlike Maradona.

I do feel peole labelling him the undisputable goat tough....is maybe disrespetful to players of the past. Its all opnions though, the BBC pundits seem to agree and the ITV ones almsot certainly dont agree.

He isnt for me but as other have said, hard to compare differnt eras, especially as even alive, fans would have seen far less of the likes of Pele, Zico, Maradona, Beckanbauer, Moore, Eusebio, Best, Cruff, even Brazilian ROnaldo as we have seen of both the current Ronaldo and Messi.

Longeticity wise at the level he has played I think he is probably top for me as well as stats wise, ability and top performance wise though, not for me personally.....but to inspire his team and play the way he did throughout the knocout stages at his age and point in areer, phenomenal....cant think of any of the other greats doing that to be fair

Zidane came close in 2006, then lost his head.

 

[Zen]

Haaland might get in that tier.

I think Mbappe is arguably already ahead of that tier.

I'm talking about, simply, pure goals. So he's not. But like I said, he almost certainly will be, while yes, already being better than them anyway.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I'm talking about, simply, pure goals. So he's not.

Oh, I thought it was about them as players.

Never mind.

 

[Cloud7]

So first off I want to congratulate Lionel Messi. Amazing achievement.

Secondly I admire your attempt of trying to throw a jab, it was cute. You wanted my attention so I’ll give you it for a little bit

So I will just end it with this because it’s very simple and not even questionable.

I know it’s Messi’s day but this is unquestionable. Ronaldo won the second most important international trophy with a country that has zero international history.

This World Cup was only the third time Portugal ever got passed the R16. Ronaldo is the first Portuguese player to ever played passed the R16. That’s how little history we have.

What Ronaldo did for Portugal will always mean more then what Messi did for Argentina because Portugal before Ronaldo won nothing and achieved nothing.

Argentina has won a lot before Messi and they will continue to win a lot without him. That to me is the difference.

So denouncing him the “goat “ because of this win is honestly silly.

Winning a World Cup is a lottery on if you are born into one of the sports super powers. Argentine made 2 of the last 3 World Cup finals. Portugal have only made it passed the R16 3x…in every WC ever.

Put Ronaldo in the teams argentina and Messi have had and their is a very much likely possibility they have more copas and would have won the World Cup earlier.

I’ll let you celebrate your day because now you can attempt to finally say Messi surpassed Ronaldo but just had to give you that lovely dose of reality. You can tell how excited you were because you felt the need to gloat.

Enjoy the win, congrats to Lionel Messi, congrats to Argentina, and congrats to every Argentine in the forum. Argentina were one of the favorites to win the tournament and they proved it. Fantastic team and well done !

You did not disappoint at all mate

 

[clarkydaz]

He will probably win it again in 4 years, just to make sure

 

[Zehner]

I don't think he can overtake him as a player, or on the Ballon d'Or front. But the goals thing and the "xx in xx years" ... seems to keep getting lower every time. 30 goals per year for 12 years doesn't even seem hard, even as his pace drops towards the end of that 12 years. Will he do it? Who knows, doubtful. But there's no way I'm writing Haaland ranking up serious numbers. I think both Mbappe and Haaland will go ahead of the tier of Lewandowski-Suarez-Zlatan with considerable ease, so that's not far off in itself, the rest is down to pure fitness, and ability to keep going.

Yes, fitness will be a great factor. Anyway, I believe you underestimate what a mountain Mbappe has to climb. Messi still has a better goals per game ratio than him on club and international level. And that's although Mbappe started putting up big numbers at a much younger age. Which means, he is currently not making up but losing ground on Messi. To provide some numbers, Mbappe's highest scoring record in a single season is 42. At 23 years of age, he scored 39 last season across all competitions. 23 year old Messi scored 53. This season Mbappe is at 19 while 24 year old Messi had scored 73 at the end of the season.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Yes, fitness will be a great factor. Anyway, I believe you underestimate what a mountain Mbappe has to climb. Messi still has a better goals per game ratio than him on club and international level. And that's although Mbappe started putting up big numbers at a much younger age. Which means, he is currently not making up but losing ground on Messi. To provide some numbers, Mbappe scored 39 last season across all competitions. 23 year old Messi scored 53. This season Mbappe is at 19 - 24 year old Messi had scored 73 at the end of the season.

Mbappe can be better than Ronaldo, but your right Messi is something else.

 

[tenpoless]

This makes me think Ronaldo will force himself into the next WC squad just so he can try to win it again despite contributing fecknall.

 

[apotheosis]

Also I didn’t reply all day to allow you guys to enjoy the win and avoid an exhausting debate.

But you have posters who try to make stupid jabs at people to get a reaction.

And you deserve credit for not rising to it.

 

[FriedClams]

Aston villa

rosario
Tottenham
Benfica
Lyon

Brighton
Atletico
Benfica

juventus
Man city

that’s the clubs the starting XI played for.

 

[wr8_utd]

Messi winning the world cup has really turned Ronaldo fanboys unhinged, hasn't it?
If not for Eder, Ronaldo wouldn't have a Euro, if we are to use your logic.


But in terms of individual performances, Ronaldo's world cup career is over and he was never able to do it t the highest level of international football (0 KO stage goals and assists to Messi's 11).

They've always been unhinged. You only need to look at the loonies in this thread and this forum.

 

[Code_Red]

In 15-20 years another player will emerge that people will swear blind is the greatest football player of all time and we will all again waste our time defending our chosen idol.

It's such a pointless exercise that's started in the USA and infected every sport on the planet (even in F1 of all places where the car is a far bigger factor than any one driver). Maradona is the perfect counter-example to it not being about a player's stats, consistency or trophy resume but about the moments that live long in the memory. Ronaldo and Messi have both given great moments to fans of the clubs they played for and to the people of their countries. If football is still a team sport where fans support the team and not the individual then we'll always give more weight to the moments they gave our team or country, which is why regardless of what Messi achieves I'll always prefer what Ronaldo has achieved in football. It's incredible that they've both achieved the success they have individually when for the most part of their careers they have competed for the same trophies in the same league.

 

[Malone_Post]

Messi would never win a euro with Portugal that’s the difference. Ronaldo in argentina would have multiple.

levels.

When you have to start making up fantasy arguments to win a debate is when you know you’ve lost.

‘Messi would have won the last 3 world cups had he been from Portugal’ See we can all do it. Make grand statements with absolutely no way of proving it either way.

All we can judge things on is what has actually happened. And in that regards, Messi will always come out on top.

 

[berbatrick]

thinking back,
Messi has been in the conversation for best goalscorer, the best playmaker, and the best dribbler for a 11-year period (2008-19).

There's only one real competition for goalscorer. In terms of efficiency and variety Messi is better, in CL KO games it's Cristiano.
There have been very good offensive playmakers - Ozil, Iniesta, Sneijder, and uhh I'm blanking. But these all lasted for a couple of seasons, over the whole period Messi has comfortably outperformed them all.
And finally dribbling: Hazard, Iniesta, Neymar. Again, people who maybe matched Messi in their best years and then faded away.

I guess what makes Ronaldo special in this trailing pack is that he managed to match Messi on one attribute for the full 10 years, did not fade away like the rest. Unfortunately for the comparison, that one attribute is only half of what Messi does.

Before and after this period, Ronaldo has an amazing 06/07 season (combining, for the one and only time in his career, being a goalscorer and creator and dribbler at the top level), but a poor ending with Juve and United.
Messi was a very tricky winger before those 10 years, but after he won the WC and Copa delivering under insane pressure. Just pushing him into the stratosphere for this argument.

 

[Righteous Steps]

thinking back,
Messi has been in the conversation for best goalscorer, the best playmaker, and the best dribbler for a 11-year period (2008-19).

There's only one real competition for goalscorer. In terms of efficiency and variety Messi is better, in CL KO games it's Cristiano.
There have been very good offensive playmakers - Ozil, Iniesta, Sneijder, and uhh I'm blanking. But these all lasted for a couple of seasons, over the whole period Messi has comfortably outperformed them all.
And finally dribbling: Hazard, Iniesta, Neymar. Again, people who maybe matched Messi in their best years and then faded away.


I guess what makes Ronaldo special in this trailing pack is that he managed to match Messi on one attribute for the full 10 years, did not fade away like the rest. Unfortunately for the comparison, that one attribute is only half of what Messi does.

Perfectly put.

 

[Bubz27]

"3-peat" is so incredibly cringe.

Okay, thanks.

 

[Bubz27]

Euros in 2016 but he didn’t contribute heavily.

He was the top scorer in the tournament

 

[Zen]

Yes, fitness will be a great factor. Anyway, I believe you underestimate what a mountain Mbappe has to climb. Messi still has a better goals per game ratio than him on club and international level. And that's although Mbappe started putting up big numbers at a much younger age. Which means, he is currently not making up but losing ground on Messi. To provide some numbers, Mbappe's highest scoring record in a single season is 42. At 23 years of age, he scored 39 last season across all competitions. 23 year old Messi scored 53. This season Mbappe is at 19 while 24 year old Messi had scored 73 at the end of the season.

I don't underestimate it. I just don't casually write it off so much. Form, fitness, mentality and well luck are all key. It's also a mountain I'd like to see climbed... who doesn't? Football greatness won't just stop with Messi and Ronaldo retiring. Records are there to be broken.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Not sure, they've all been playing at a high level, Modric finished 3rd at the world cup and won the champions league, saying that Benzema hasn't been half bad and he's pushing 35 too. Messi has been great at the world cup but his PSG form hasn't been at the same level.

Disagree. He’s been quite good with psg this season, not so much last season. He’s the top assister in all of Europe right now.

He sees less of the ball at psg as well

 

[Remember the geese]

Okay, thanks.

Nothing personal.