Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[mshnsh]

It wasnt just the 60 seconds though from 80 mins on Argentina looked shell shocked and France looked like they were going to win, then again in extra time I thought mbappe had won it for them at the end but he just didn't get the shot away, but I thought he was the best player even if he just shone in moments

No he wasn't. Was anonymous for 80 minutes than scored 2 in a minute. But even after that he did not create or offer a consistent threat.

I don't disagree he might when he's finished but I saw someone on here argue that Pele at 17 was greater than ronaldo's whole career because of one world cup, so by that metric you'd have mbappe as a top 3 or 4 player all time and probably ahead of Messi if you're including 2018 and 2022, but that's obviously not how football works. He'll definitely go down as an all time great when he's done, though if he stays at psg his whole career I think he'll need 2 or 3 CLs

Greatness in football is not just about achievements because it is a teamsport. Individual performances matter which is why winning the wc as the outstanding player matters. Otherwise players like Bebeto and Rivaldo would be held in a higher esteem.

In addition, an isolated world cup even as the player of the tournament is not sufficient to get to absolute goat level, you need a body of work in addition.

Mbappe won the WC in 2018 but wasn't the tournament's best player or even France's best player. And in this tournament, Griezmann was France's best player apart from the final. Mbappe also does not have the body of work as yet to support any claim to be amongst the very best.

The reason Pele is held in such high esteem is not just because of the world cups but he was widely considered the best player in the world for a long time during the 60s era. Ditto Maradona. And ditto Messi.

 

[Henandez14]

Your attempts to downplay how big a feat it is to win a WC - still seen as the epitome of football by many/most is quite impressive, I must say

It's really simple. It was the biggest trophy when hadn't won it, and now he has, its just another tinpot

 

[jm99]

You're just jealous, understandably tbf, given your allegiance to the Saudi git who was sacked and was atrocious in the tournament. Messi had a great individual wc campaign and played a huge role in their victory. He was the standout player in pretty much every game while playing with average teammates.And yeah, Portugal had a better team than Argentina, yet they did not win it, and Ronaldo himself was shit.

Netherlands had a long unbeaten run, and Croatia are a good side who can beat any team and they have better players in their midfield than Argentina.

Before comparing Messi to players like James Rodriguez, you need to consider the context. Messi has won league titles as the mvp, the ucl as the mvp, domestic cups as the mvp, copa America as the mvp, the Olympic gold as the mvp, the U20 wc as the mvp and now the wc as the mvp. And he has 7 ballond'ors. For Messi, the wc win as the best player cements his legacy. Whether you like it or not, the wc is the most prestigious tournament in existence.

Well I mean anyone arguing that Ronaldo hasn't declined or that Messi isn't thr better player right now is deluded so why you're discussing Ronaldo in this tournament is strange though I will note that Portugal's much better team went behind against Morocco without Ronaldo on the pitch.

Again I've not debated that the WC will add a lot to messi's legacy of course it will, but that's not the same as being a better judge of quality, otherwise you'd have to say Messi only being able to score a knockout goal in 1 of the 5 world cups he's played in has to count against him. Which I personally wouldn't, but if the world cup is the best judge of quality then failure in 80% of them isn't great.

But again I don't judge a player by how they play in international football

 

[jm99]

It's really simple. It was the biggest trophy when hadn't won it, and now he has, its just another tinpot

No its probably still the biggest trophy because its the most watched tournament and its only played every 4 years, that doesn't make it the best or a good judge of quality.

 

[That_Bloke]

Stumbled across this clip of him at 16. His natural talent and footballing intelligence is just astonishing

I've never seen a player with such a close ball control at such high speed. Not even Maradona. You can't take the ball from him in a one on one situation, and must gang up on him to even have a chance.

Truly astonishing, and his football IQ is off the charts. He's also lucky his career didn't end there and then because some of the tackles were absolutely brutal.

 

[That_Bloke]

Mbappe was invisible for 80 minutes and scored two penalties. Great game still, no doubt.

The point regarding the penalties is correct but Messi's performances would have been exceptional even without those.

His volley for the equalizer was mental. White it's true that he woke up after the 80th minute, you have take into account that his whole team just sleep walked the whole game. He still managed to single-handedly turn the match around, scoring a hat-trick and pushing the outcome all the way to the penalty shoot-out when France should've lost in the regular game time. And that's what you expect from the very best.

I think there's a valid case for him being the best player in the final and it's a toss-up between him and Messi.

 

[mshnsh]

Well I mean anyone arguing that Ronaldo hasn't declined or that Messi isn't thr better player right now is deluded so why you're discussing Ronaldo in this tournament is strange though I will note that Portugal's much better team went behind against Morocco without Ronaldo on the pitch.

Again I've not debated that the WC will add a lot to messi's legacy of course it will, but that's not the same as being a better judge of quality, otherwise you'd have to say Messi only being able to score a knockout goal in 1 of the 5 world cups he's played in has to count against him. Which I personally wouldn't, but if the world cup is the best judge of quality then failure in 80% of them isn't great.

But again I don't judge a player by how they play in international football

I understand where you are coming from. I agree that world cups on their own cannot break a player who has had a great career because there are multiple factors that determine success at a tournament including the quality of team around the said payer, the fitness levels going into the tournament etc. And in that regard even if Ronaldo has not had a single great tournament live alone win it does not make him a lesser payer due to the body of work he has across his career. Regardless of the world cups, he is an a time great. Those idiotic comments about Pele being better just because of a world cup shouldn't bother you. Pele is greater than him because of what he achieved, and how he played along with the world cups; he was considered the best player in the world for most of his career.

And what is also true is that an isolated great word cup for any individual payer cannot make him a great eg someone ie scilacci in Italia 90 because it is a flash in the pan. No one considers Rossi to be greater than Baggio; the later was simply the better footballer.In that same way, C. Ronaldo > Romario/Rossi/Zidane etc despite the later winning the world cup while having a great individual tournament.

That is where the context comes in. You cannot downplay Messi at this tournament; over the years he has been considered the best in the world by most neutrals (who don't have any connections to Ronaldo's/Messi's former clubs or to their countries) not only because of his achievements but because of the genius he possesses. For many he was the greatest anyway but for some the biggest criticism was that he hasn't done it while paying for Argentina and even when he won the Copa America as the mvp, they were not satisfied; this world cup win as the player of the tournament emphatically answered those critics and provides him with a legacy.

 

[jm99]

I understand where you are coming from. I agree that world cups on their own cannot break a player who has had a great career because there are multiple factors that determine success at a tournament including the quality of team around the said payer, the fitness levels going into the tournament etc. And in that regard even if Ronaldo has not had a single great tournament live alone win it does not make him a lesser payer due to the body of work he has across his career. Regardless of the world cups, he is an a time great. Those idiotic comments about Pele being better just because of a world cup shouldn't bother you. Pele is greater than him because of what he achieved, and how he played along with the world cups; he was considered the best player in the world for most of his career.

And what is also true is that an isolated great word cup for any individual payer cannot make him a great eg someone ie scilacci in Italia 90 because it is a flash in the pan. No one considers Rossi to be greater than Baggio; the later was simply the better footballer.In that same way, C. Ronaldo > Romario/Rossi/Zidane etc despite the later winning the world cup while having a great individual tournament.

That is where the context comes in. You cannot downplay Messi at this tournament; over the years he has been considered the best in the world by most neutrals (who don't have any connections to Ronaldo's/Messi's former clubs or to their countries) not only because of his achievements but because of the genius he possesses. For many he was the greatest anyway but for some the biggest criticism was that he hasn't done it while paying for Argentina and even when he won the Copa America as the mvp, they were not satisfied; this world cup win as the player of the tournament emphatically answered those critics and provides him with a legacy.

I do get what you're saying but just think you're arguing against a point I wasn't making, for me Messi and Ronaldo are the two best of all time, and I'm not saying that this wc doesn't enhance messi's legacy, or that it's totally irrelevant. My point is if you think Messi is the better player it's fsr more likely to be based on a decade and a half of his performances not thisnone tournament, and if you think Ronaldo is a better player then one tournament when he's 38 and clearly past his best shouldn't change your mind to Messi being better. Their body of work over the last 15 years should matter more. Ronaldo winning the euros in 2016 didn't temporarily make him a better player until Messi won the copa America. Judging their quality is based on 1000 games or so each, while it's a fantastic achievement for Messi to win the world cup, and does add to his legacy, it shouldn't sway your decision one way or the other

 

[mshnsh]

I do get what you're saying but just think you're arguing against a point I wasn't making, for me Messi and Ronaldo are the two best of all time, and I'm not saying that this wc doesn't enhance messi's legacy, or that it's totally irrelevant. My point is if you think Messi is the better player it's fsr more likely to be based on a decade and a half of his performances not thisnone tournament, and if you think Ronaldo is a better player then one tournament when he's 38 and clearly past his best shouldn't change your mind to Messi being better. Their body of work over the last 15 years should matter more. Ronaldo winning the euros in 2016 didn't temporarily make him a better player until Messi won the copa America. Judging their quality is based on 1000 games or so each, while it's a fantastic achievement for Messi to win the world cup, and does add to his legacy, it shouldn't sway your decision one way or the other

The thing is majority of neutrals will agree Messi > Ronaldo even before the world cup quite simply because he has always been the better footballer. Obviously your view is biased because you are United fan and majority of the United fans I know personally (eg my brother, some friends) have the same view even now despite Ronaldo disrespecting the club twice and the manager this season. I was as big a Cristiano fan as they come; when United played Real Madrid in 2013, I Wanted United to win and go through but Ronaldo to shine as brightly as possible while on the losing side but honesty although he scored the only goa at old trafford, he was otherwise underwhelming. I watched every Real game and Portugal game and would get into arguments with those who were against CR7. But the catch is that I also watched every Barcelona game and Argentina game just to watch Messi play because he was magical; I knew he was a genius and that Cristiano lacked that ability but never admitted it until around 2014/15.

For me Ronaldo is one of the greatest ever for his individual plus collective accomplishments, his stats, and his longevity. What he lacked was the magic of a football genius which is why i don't consider him amongst the top 3 all time but just below that. I saw Maradona but not Pele however the way his peers ie Bobby Charlton, Eusebio etc talked about him can't be ignored.

 

[Gehrman]

Stumbled across this clip of him at 16. His natural talent and footballing intelligence is just astonishing

I can remember Messi saying not that long ago that his playstyle never changed much since he was 14.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

No I get that, my point is the world cup clearly isn't harder to perform at when you get players who get nominated for the golden ball but never come close to that level over their club career, the vastly poorer quality of managers, the limited time training together, the short time the competition takes place over, it's disruptive to how players normally play, but its not a better judge of quality

So why did ronaldo fail so miserably in knockout stages? 5 WC's and ZERO goals are assists in knockout stages? Was it because he didn't have the best midfield in the world like the way Modric went to a WC final and won a CL after Ronaldo left?

 

[Gehrman]

So why did ronaldo fail so miserably in knockout stages? 5 WC's and ZERO goals are assists in knockout stages? Was it because he didn't have the best midfield in the world like the way Modric went to a WC final and won a CL after Ronaldo left?

It is poor but so was Messi's record before this WC. Ronaldo was a bit unfortunate that he was finished when Portugal had one of their strongest wc squads. Still its poor, no doubt about it. Diego Forlan had a far memorable wc than Ronnie ever had, but no one would say they were close in quality as players.

 

[jm99]

So why did ronaldo fail so miserably in knockout stages? 5 WC's and ZERO goals are assists in knockout stages? Was it because he didn't have the best midfield in the world like the way Modric went to a WC final and won a CL after Ronaldo left?

I just told you because its disruptive to players, 8 years under an incredibly defensive manager in santos, not to mention his first world cup was before he became a great goalscorer and his last world cup he wasn't much of a goalscorer anymore either

 

[genardk]

I just told you because its disruptive to players, 8 years under an incredibly defensive manager in santos, not to mention his first world cup was before he became a great goalscorer and his last world cup he wasn't much of a goalscorer anymore either

You do not have to be a great goal scorer to leave your mark in a WC.. for ex. James Rodriguez, Hagi, Modric, Maldini, Cannavaro etc. etc. etc.
The guy had "5" chances to do it and failed each time, most top players only had the chance to play in 1-2 WCs..

Also, tons of average players from worse NTs scored and assisted in the knock-out stages of the WCs, Ronaldo has zero excuse..

 

[mshnsh]

This interview tell you everything about Messi's mentality on the pitch. It is all about the team yet he has always scored at a rate as great as any goalscorer in history and is one of the best ever dribblers if not the all out best ever dribbler.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

This interview tell you everything about Messi's mentality on the pitch. It is all about the team yet he has always scored at a rate as great as any goalscorer in history and is one of the best ever dribblers if not the all out best ever dribbler.

Still the same player from youth academy where he scored more goals than the striker while being the playmaker. I actually didn't expect that and thought he was just a dribbler and playmaker at youth level

 

[Lord SInister]

This interview tell you everything about Messi's mentality on the pitch. It is all about the team yet he has always scored at a rate as great as any goalscorer in history and is one of the best ever dribblers if not the all out best ever dribbler.

This interview tell you everything about Messi's mentality on the pitch. It is all about the team yet he has always scored at a rate as great as any goalscorer in history and is one of the best ever dribblers if not the all out best ever dribbler.

This just shows his style of play never changed. He never had to adjust his game to be more productive. He was always going to be the centerpiece who is not only the heart of the attacking play but also the finisher.

 

[Ish]

It's really simple. It was the biggest trophy when hadn't won it, and now he has, its just another tinpot

Yeah sort of

 

[Gehrman]

This interview tell you everything about Messi's mentality on the pitch. It is all about the team yet he has always scored at a rate as great as any goalscorer in history and is one of the best ever dribblers if not the all out best ever dribbler.

Amazing interview considering how his career panned out.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

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Zlatan seems happy with the world cup win

 

[kouroux]

Scored a FK in injury time to win the game