It's really simple. It was the biggest trophy when hadn't won it, and now he has, its just another tinpotYour attempts to downplay how big a feat it is to win a WC - still seen as the epitome of football by many/most is quite impressive, I must say
Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
- Thread starter Pexbo
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Nik (@Rood), Jamie (@Vault Dweller) and Ed (@That'sHernandez) give their end of season awards out! They celebrate the best players, goals and moments of the season (there were some, honestly) and also give out awards for the worst and most disappointing players/moments of the season.
They then discuss all the latest transfer rumours and get into the potential ins and outs this summer at Old Trafford.
Well I mean anyone arguing that Ronaldo hasn't declined or that Messi isn't thr better player right now is deluded so why you're discussing Ronaldo in this tournament is strange though I will note that Portugal's much better team went behind against Morocco without Ronaldo on the pitch.
Again I've not debated that the WC will add a lot to messi's legacy of course it will, but that's not the same as being a better judge of quality, otherwise you'd have to say Messi only being able to score a knockout goal in 1 of the 5 world cups he's played in has to count against him. Which I personally wouldn't, but if the world cup is the best judge of quality then failure in 80% of them isn't great.
But again I don't judge a player by how they play in international football
No its probably still the biggest trophy because its the most watched tournament and its only played every 4 years, that doesn't make it the best or a good judge of quality.
I've never seen a player with such a close ball control at such high speed. Not even Maradona. You can't take the ball from him in a one on one situation, and must gang up on him to even have a chance.
Truly astonishing, and his football IQ is off the charts. He's also lucky his career didn't end there and then because some of the tackles were absolutely brutal.
His volley for the equalizer was mental. White it's true that he woke up after the 80th minute, you have take into account that his whole team just sleep walked the whole game. He still managed to single-handedly turn the match around, scoring a hat-trick and pushing the outcome all the way to the penalty shoot-out when France should've lost in the regular game time. And that's what you expect from the very best.
I think there's a valid case for him being the best player in the final and it's a toss-up between him and Messi.
I understand where you are coming from. I agree that world cups on their own cannot break a player who has had a great career because there are multiple factors that determine success at a tournament including the quality of team around the said payer, the fitness levels going into the tournament etc. And in that regard even if Ronaldo has not had a single great tournament live alone win it does not make him a lesser payer due to the body of work he has across his career. Regardless of the world cups, he is an a time great. Those idiotic comments about Pele being better just because of a world cup shouldn't bother you. Pele is greater than him because of what he achieved, and how he played along with the world cups; he was considered the best player in the world for most of his career.
And what is also true is that an isolated great word cup for any individual payer cannot make him a great eg someone ie scilacci in Italia 90 because it is a flash in the pan. No one considers Rossi to be greater than Baggio; the later was simply the better footballer.In that same way, C. Ronaldo > Romario/Rossi/Zidane etc despite the later winning the world cup while having a great individual tournament.
That is where the context comes in. You cannot downplay Messi at this tournament; over the years he has been considered the best in the world by most neutrals (who don't have any connections to Ronaldo's/Messi's former clubs or to their countries) not only because of his achievements but because of the genius he possesses. For many he was the greatest anyway but for some the biggest criticism was that he hasn't done it while paying for Argentina and even when he won the Copa America as the mvp, they were not satisfied; this world cup win as the player of the tournament emphatically answered those critics and provides him with a legacy.
I do get what you're saying but just think you're arguing against a point I wasn't making, for me Messi and Ronaldo are the two best of all time, and I'm not saying that this wc doesn't enhance messi's legacy, or that it's totally irrelevant. My point is if you think Messi is the better player it's fsr more likely to be based on a decade and a half of his performances not thisnone tournament, and if you think Ronaldo is a better player then one tournament when he's 38 and clearly past his best shouldn't change your mind to Messi being better. Their body of work over the last 15 years should matter more. Ronaldo winning the euros in 2016 didn't temporarily make him a better player until Messi won the copa America. Judging their quality is based on 1000 games or so each, while it's a fantastic achievement for Messi to win the world cup, and does add to his legacy, it shouldn't sway your decision one way or the other
The thing is majority of neutrals will agree Messi > Ronaldo even before the world cup quite simply because he has always been the better footballer. Obviously your view is biased because you are United fan and majority of the United fans I know personally (eg my brother, some friends) have the same view even now despite Ronaldo disrespecting the club twice and the manager this season. I was as big a Cristiano fan as they come; when United played Real Madrid in 2013, I Wanted United to win and go through but Ronaldo to shine as brightly as possible while on the losing side but honesty although he scored the only goa at old trafford, he was otherwise underwhelming. I watched every Real game and Portugal game and would get into arguments with those who were against CR7. But the catch is that I also watched every Barcelona game and Argentina game just to watch Messi play because he was magical; I knew he was a genius and that Cristiano lacked that ability but never admitted it until around 2014/15.
For me Ronaldo is one of the greatest ever for his individual plus collective accomplishments, his stats, and his longevity. What he lacked was the magic of a football genius which is why i don't consider him amongst the top 3 all time but just below that. I saw Maradona but not Pele however the way his peers ie Bobby Charlton, Eusebio etc talked about him can't be ignored.
I can remember Messi saying not that long ago that his playstyle never changed much since he was 14.
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So why did ronaldo fail so miserably in knockout stages? 5 WC's and ZERO goals are assists in knockout stages? Was it because he didn't have the best midfield in the world like the way Modric went to a WC final and won a CL after Ronaldo left?
It is poor but so was Messi's record before this WC. Ronaldo was a bit unfortunate that he was finished when Portugal had one of their strongest wc squads. Still its poor, no doubt about it. Diego Forlan had a far memorable wc than Ronnie ever had, but no one would say they were close in quality as players.
I just told you because its disruptive to players, 8 years under an incredibly defensive manager in santos, not to mention his first world cup was before he became a great goalscorer and his last world cup he wasn't much of a goalscorer anymore either
You do not have to be a great goal scorer to leave your mark in a WC.. for ex. James Rodriguez, Hagi, Modric, Maldini, Cannavaro etc. etc. etc.
The guy had "5" chances to do it and failed each time, most top players only had the chance to play in 1-2 WCs..
Also, tons of average players from worse NTs scored and assisted in the knock-out stages of the WCs, Ronaldo has zero excuse..
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This interview tell you everything about Messi's mentality on the pitch. It is all about the team yet he has always scored at a rate as great as any goalscorer in history and is one of the best ever dribblers if not the all out best ever dribbler.
Still the same player from youth academy where he scored more goals than the striker while being the playmaker. I actually didn't expect that and thought he was just a dribbler and playmaker at youth level
This just shows his style of play never changed. He never had to adjust his game to be more productive. He was always going to be the centerpiece who is not only the heart of the attacking play but also the finisher.
Yeah sort of
Zlatan seems happy with the world cup win
Scored a FK in injury time to win the game
Came across this, not sure which mega thread there is for Lionel Messi's legacy and not necessarily his current time in Miami. Mods feel free to move this post if this is the wrong thread.
Other than maybe Pele, where it's too difficult to compare, I cannot imagine anyone better.
It's not that easy picking between Messi and Maradona either.
If I was forced to pick, I'd pick Messi, but it's millimeters between the two.
I'd pick Maradona, by a fist...
That would be good enough as the career highlight reel for many good attackers, but he has hundreds of games with similar quality highlights to that one.
Not old enough to have watched Maradona, only through footage, highlights, compilations etc.
Maybe because they are so similar in style, I just don't see him as better than Messi. Would say he is physically stronger, more charismatic, probably a better leader but I always think Messi is better from the eye. But think my opinion holds no weight as I have never watched a full match of him.
Also just seen footage from Pele, who's style is different but he looked like a completely different football God or superplayer. Looked like he could do everything and whenever he wanted.
Of the players who I've watched, none. Pre-knee injuries fat Ronaldo was even more deadly in the final 3rd with his pace and unmatched change of direction, but he still didnt have Messi's passing creativity or free kick ability.
There's also obviously Maradona, who the older folks got to watch and some will claim that he was better, but honestly when you see the efficiency of Messi over his European career there isnt really a comparison, even making allowances for the difference in the football landscape of the 80s and 00s
Though Messi has scored plenty free kicks, I think they make up around 5 goals a season on average. It is really his passing and bringing others into play that make him a different beast to R9 I'd say.
He's just far more dangerous from a longer range whether through his passing ability or his superior long range shooting.
Maradona from what Ive understood doesn't have Messi's numbers, but when you look at percentage-wise how many of his teams' goal contributions came from him, he tops Messi I believe in many seasons.
I haven't much looked in to that, but I do think there are flaws in that way of measuring as well.
Maradona had an array of creative tricks and flicks (not showboating but actually useful things he used expertly during the game) which can be very easy on the eye. Messi's dribbling style is more robotic, repetitive and efficiency-based with endless body feints and pure close control and acceleration. Maradona had that and more flair and tricks on top of that. On the eye test Maradona looks even better.
I'm too young to have watched Prime Maradona live but based on everything I have seen, his defensive and off the ball contribution seems to be a lot more than Messi's. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
He was also more robust, less protected by the officials, had a better touch and control and was stronger in the air. His mastery of the ball is unlike anything I have ever seen.
The bolded is complete nonsense.
I did see prime Maradona, and determining who was better is very difficult, because of the differences in football in Diego's time. I think there are strong cases to be made for both of them as the best ever.
Maradona's style was more flamboyant, but there is plenty of beauty in Messi's game as well, just of a different kind.
Not much different to what I'm doing in Sunday league
I think it’s almost forgotten because he’s been around for so long how electric he was from 2009 to 2012 on the ball. He got better at other things like free kicks and controlling the game but he was a phenomenon then. 2011 CL final and all the pundits are saying he’s the best ever, a sense of awe. That’s why when I see people say the likes of Ronaldo or Ronaldinho were better in their peak… nah it’s still Messi.
it was just insane how many aspects of the game he was the best at
Id love to go back to those days, watching Barca and all the games was special.
Knowing you will see some magic in those 90 minutes.
I remember turning on CL games and watching him run riot on teams like Arsenal.
Always surprised me how he went playing like that at Barcelona and then how he ended up playing at PSG.
Age related decline among other things? Still his 2nd season at psg was actually good and despite deservedly winning best player at the WC you could see how much slowed down he was in general. Its like how he doesn't dribble through teams for fun in the MLS. Its because his agility, balance, acceleration and pace has declined because of age.
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You mean objectively the best player in the league in 2022/2023 according to the automated ratings?
https://www.sofascore.com/tournament/football/france/ligue-1/34#id:42273
”Mesi bad at PSG” is the most ridiculous myth in football. It's uttered by those who either don't watch the games or can't comprehend what they're seeing.
Fixating on pure G+A numbers and nothing else makes a mockery of football.
I don't dispute that automated ratings have some value but just using sofascore ratings is also lazy. Real people who actually understand football and watch games and vote motm or give ratings is far superior to automated ratings.
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Best player I’ve seen in my lifetime. Plain and simple.
As someone has already said, he was still very good - the elite levels he has shown gave us expectations that he’d win the treble there. Any other player would be happy with the seasons he had there.
As someone has already said, he was still very good - the elite levels he has shown gave us expectations that he’d win the treble there. Any other player would be happy with the seasons he had there.
The truth is he declined from GOAT level to just world class at PSG. Because of age.
That made some people lose their heads completely and declare he was utterly finished while still at PSG.
Agreed