This isn't even close anymore.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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Neither did you.
Thread shouldn't really be open since its hardly a debate
Which has nothing to do with it. You are trying to purposely pretend Maradona's world cup legacy is only 1986.
You get worse by the minute.I doubt you actually watched world cup 1990. Because if you ACTUALLY did, you'd know Argentina played the equivalent 8-1-1 the entire tournament with Maradona on his own in midfield against literally every team they faced. Given your post above am literally certain you were too young to have watched that tournament at an age of understanding. Evidenced by your laughable attempt to some how make Maradona's legacy about Messi and belittling what he did just to big up Messi all at the same time.I seriously fail to see how giving Maradona's world cup legacy the respect it deserves = bitterness about Messi. I haven't indicated in anything I relied to you that I have problems with Messi nor his legacy. Im infact quite satisfied he has finally won a world cup. Inane fans of his like yourself no longer have to big him up above his station like y'all did for years in the past. He can now rightly and respectfully take his seat alongside Pele and Maradona. No thanks to the likes of you....
Seriously? Have you stooped so low as to start pretending before VAR incident of that ilk, even with the best refs didn't go unchecked as far back as 1966 because the ref and his lines men missed the incident? Because I'm failing to understand where you are going with this....
Talk of a human with utter lack of self awareness. You're a riot
So? That has absolutely NOTHING you with your rubbish claims he played next to poor finishers the times he lost finals at the Copa America. His first final loss was in 2007. A tournament he played alongside peak Tevez, plus the likes of Hernan Crespo and Diego Milito. His next loss in 2015, as P.O.T.T. his best friend Aguero was the starter, with Tevez, Lavezzi and lastly Higuain to call upon. Yet as per your logic Aguero is a poor finisher and somehow in a match that ended 0-0 a.e.t with Messi, the best forward and finisher on his team involved through out bears NO responsibility in Argentina not scoring with in that time before penalties. You are blissfully unware of how ridiculous your claims are.....
You really loove to make up stuff don't you......
I don't have to! Because nothing you have claimed EVER crossed an Argentine's' mind.
You seem blissfully unaware that before the 2014 run to the final a good chunk of Argentina were not even fully behind Messi. Even as the stand out star of the national side, pressure that was so much that post that final Messi needed a self imposed break from the national side. A break that finally made them all start to appreciate hat he brought to the table
You clearly suffer from extreme delusions........please increase your copium amount, you definitely need it, we are all concerned about your well-being
It's embarrassingly one sided, isn't it?
Quality control
You are the one in denial purposefully ignoring how much he failed with Napoli in European Cup losing to uber-super teams like Spartak when Sampdoria, Roma, Juve, Milan all played finals in European Cup.. Do you have any objection to that? Has he been a great performer in European competitions, mr know it all?
Weirdo, how do you know my age? I have been watching WCs since 86 Mexico. And, how does it refute what I said? The guy wasn't anything special in 90 WC.
Imagine thinking Maradona broke havoc in WC 90 and questioning other people's ages, talk about delusion
Who cares about what you think about Messi?
I am of the opinion that Maradona is the best performer ever in a single WC, was more impressive for me than Messi in 2022.. does not change the fact that he cheated in QFs against England with the handball. Where did you get the idea that I am not giving him credit? You seem to read/see things that does not exist, go see an eye doctor or a psychiatrist
What are you talking about? You said this in your previous post " Only VAR would have caught the handball incident, tech which wasn't invented till Messi had lost a world cup final as an adult."Seriously? Have you stooped so low as to start pretending before VAR incident of that ilk, even with the best refs didn't go unchecked as far back as 1966 because the ref and his lines men missed the incident? Because I'm failing to understand where you are going with this....
Talk of a human with utter lack of self awareness. You're a riot
You cannot make this up, the guy is commenting on a game he did not watch, Did you see the reaction of English player, their protests? Yeah, definitely only VAR can see that
The referee did a very poor job there..The guy thinks superior club performance = superior NT performance, typical flat earther logicSo? That has absolutely NOTHING you with your rubbish claims he played next to poor finishers the times he lost finals at the Copa America. His first final loss was in 2007. A tournament he played alongside peak Tevez, plus the likes of Hernan Crespo and Diego Milito. His next loss in 2015, as P.O.T.T. his best friend Aguero was the starter, with Tevez, Lavezzi and lastly Higuain to call upon. Yet as per your logic Aguero is a poor finisher and somehow in a match that ended 0-0 a.e.t with Messi, the best forward and finisher on his team involved through out bears NO responsibility in Argentina not scoring with in that time before penalties. You are blissfully unware of how ridiculous your claims are.....
You really loove to make up stuff don't you......
Yeah, Aguero was as effective with Argentina NT as he was with City.. The guy does not even know mighty Aguero had 2 goals in 12 WC games, so impressive.. go read, educate yourself, it's not too late..
Out of all the BS you have posted so far, this is one of the highlights...Yeah, it did not cross any Argentine's mindI don't have to! Because nothing you have claimed EVER crossed an Argentine's' mind.
You seem blissfully unaware that before the 2014 run to the final a good chunk of Argentina were not even fully behind Messi. Even as the stand out star of the national side, pressure that was so much that post that final Messi needed a self imposed break from the national side. A break that finally made them all start to appreciate hat he brought to the table
You clearly suffer from extreme delusions.......
Check below, I am trying to help as you seem too ignorant to post on a football forum about Argentina.. These are from the most circulated newspapers in Argentina.. If you can't speak Spanish, don't forget to use google translate, you're welcome.. from time to time visit this thread so I can have some fun
https://www.clarin.com/deportes/mundial-2018/higuain-hizo-vez_0_HywzW7xMX.html
https://www.lanacion.com.ar/deporte...peores-momentos-higuain-seleccion-nid2233024/
Nor should it be.
Comparing Maradona or Pelé to modern day footballers is meaningless. I watched some replay of entire games. Pelé and Maradona used to get kicked all around the pitch. Often fouls worthy of red cards in today’s football. Messi and CR7 are lucky to play in the 10s and 20s… It’s almost like they play a different sport.
It's swings and roundabouts. Players in the past were not protected from hatchet men but then again, players from the past could be alcoholics and drug addicts and still have long and successful careers. That's simply not possible today. So the earlier eras were not necessarily harder or easier, just different.
Also, defenders today have teams of analysts analysing the best ways to stop Messi and Ronaldo. So the same way Pele and Maradona were 'stopped' by terrible tackles, defenders today are being fed the legal ways to best stop these players. As you say, swings and roundabouts. I think everyone who has watched the last 15-20 years of football (i.e. Messi and Ronaldo's careers) can clearly see they are absolutely a cut above their peers.
I love Maradona and think it's absolutely legit to have him as the best ever. He's in my top four as well in no particular order.
That being said, I have the feeling many people suddenly discovered how much they appreciate him coincidently right after the moment Messi won his first WC
That being said, I have the feeling many people suddenly discovered how much they appreciate him coincidently right after the moment Messi won his first WC
Yeah, since Ronaldo is out of question, suddenly his fanboys started mentioning Pele and Maradona being better than messi. Cope.I love Maradona and think it's absolutely legit to have him as the best ever. He's in my top four as well in no particular order.
That being said, I have the feeling many people suddenly discovered how much they appreciate him coincidently right after the moment Messi won his first WC
Great point. There is so much more knowledge about opponents now.
It's not just knowledge, people now analyze every minute of the players' career.
Do you think people comparing them today have watched or talked about Pelé's, Maradona's or brazilian Ronaldo's rainy wednesday's night at Stoke games?
Ronaldo and Messi are attacked because in some random game they missed a penalty or because they missed a sitter, but if you go to that detail then analyse that way the older players as well.
it's true, isn't it? A few of them kept putting down Pelé when the fourfourtwo list came out and now are suddenly his biggest fans.I love Maradona and think it's absolutely legit to have him as the best ever. He's in my top four as well in no particular order.
That being said, I have the feeling many people suddenly discovered how much they appreciate him coincidently right after the moment Messi won his first WC
The same can be said for those that said winning a WC doesn't mean anything as it's just a few games and depends on circunstances, while now is a requirement to be a good player.
Don't know who said that, to be honest.
I don't think you can expect anyone to win a world cup because it's very difficult to do so. However, you would expect elite players to perform at a high level during it, even if it doesn't result in winning the trophy.
Those who can't hack it at the highest level of international football have a bit of a black mark against them.
Players now are more scrutinised but this is a different point from what I was talking about, which is the difficulty of performing on the pitch in this era v previous eras. In the past, players had to deal with bad equipment/pitches and violent fouls. Now they don't have to deal with that as much but the game is much more professional and your opponents watch a lot of video to try and find and exploit weaknesses in your game. That's the trade off.
Christ you don’t half talk shite mate
Is there any point to this thread now?
There’s enough Messi/Ronaldo talk elsewhere in any case.
There’s enough Messi/Ronaldo talk elsewhere in any case.
These 'assists' will never show up in stats. This is one of many reasons why Messi is magical. His spatial awareness is god-tier.
the God of football
the God of football
Messi was much better in the final than Maradona was in '86.
It was never Ronaldo
Agreed. Ronaldo never performed in any international tournament.
He was cheerleader for the final against France just to make it look like he was involved for the cameras.
I don't see how anyone could argue it before this WC as Messi has done much more for country than Ronaldo in international tournaments.
One thing I've seen Ronaldo fans arguing is that he is comparable because he helped Portugal to win their first ever major honours whereas Argentina had won two World Cups and numerous Copa Americas before Messi came into the team. This is, obviously, nonsense.
Look at Platini v Maradona for example. Platini helped France to win their first ever international trophy and played much much better in that tournament than Ronaldo did in 2016. He also helped France to 3rd and 4th place finishes in the World Cup, where France had failed to qualify for the 2 editions prior to Platini coming into the team in 1978. But when Maradona won the World Cup in the manner that he did, the debate was over. It didn't matter that Argentina had way more historical success than France (including a World Cup win just 8 years before the 1986 victory where Maradona wasn't even selected to play).
I don't get this argument either.
France had no world cup success since 1998, since then they have been the best team in world cups.
If it was the case France would have never won anything on the world cup stage because history said they can't win.
Exactly. You could even argue that Portugal had a better football history pre Ronaldo than France had pre Platini. France is a bigger country and had qualified for the WC a few more times before Platini than Portugal had pre Ronny, but in terms of legendary players and club success in Europe (mainly Benfica), Portugal was way ahead.
I'm sure there are some French people on here who can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't get the impression that the French are as crazily passionate about football as some other European nations. Maybe it's a class or race thing, I don't know.
Possible seeing how most of their great footballers were of immigrant descent, Platini had italian accessory, Fontaine a Spanish mother and born abroad and kopa had polish ancestry so there's obviously a trend which is fascinating seeing how much influence they had over the growth of the game in its infancy.
Yes. The Ballon D'Or originates from a French magazine, Jules Rimet is French, etc. etc.
That’s not true. Messi lost the ball that gave France the 2-2… He wasn’t nearly as marked as Maradona was in 86… Maradona still made the winning assist…. Messi scoring a penalty and a tap-in is good for the stats but his final wasn’t that good. De Paul and Di Maria were Argentina’s best player of the final. And even suggesting Messi had a better final wouldn’t suffice to beat Maradona’s 86 WC.
That being said Messi’s WC is extremely good and it’s one of the best in the history of the WC…it is just not better than Maradona’s.
I believe Messi is the only player even remotely comparable to Maradona and Pelé. And there is an argument for him being better than both when we include club careers (especially given his longevity). But he is nowhere near them if we are strictly speaking about the WC.
and they are nowhere near him if we speak strictly club
You can say that. But both Pélé and Maradona played football in very different periods.and they are nowhere near him if we speak strictly club
Pélé played during a time when there wasn't as much money in the sport and South American players could remain with their clubs for longer periods of time. The level of the Copa Libertadores in the 1960s was considered to be on par with European club competitions. Maradona, on the other hand, achieved something unique by leading Napoli to league titles in the Serie A, a league that was considered the best at the time, and also winning a European trophy. Napoli and the region of South Italy had never won the Serie A before, and have not won it since, though this may change in the near future.
Messi is also quite unique. He has remained at the top of his game for a much longer period. His career has spanned over 15 years and he has consistently performed at his best throughout most of that time.
Falseand they are nowhere near him if we speak strictly club
Also false. He now has the most WC goal contributions in history, breaking Pele's record. I agree mostly with everything else you've said though and I agree that Maradona and Pele have better WC resumes but I don't think that they are way ahead of Messi in that respect anymore.
In terms of club career and longevity, only CR7 compares to Messi.
In terms of World Cup careers, you can probably say that Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo Nazario are as good or better than Messi.
In terms of goalscoring, probably Pele, CR7 and Gerd Muller.
In terms of dribbling, passing, vision, and technical ability only Maradona compared to Messi.
Now find someone who competes with Messi in every category…
In terms of World Cup careers, you can probably say that Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo Nazario are as good or better than Messi.
In terms of goalscoring, probably Pele, CR7 and Gerd Muller.
In terms of dribbling, passing, vision, and technical ability only Maradona compared to Messi.
Now find someone who competes with Messi in every category…
False
True and you can make an argument for some other players
Plus some others
False
Pele. Played almost 1400 matches in 80 different countries scoring close to 1300 goals as an attacking midfielder (he was not a number 9). Tremendous athleticism, speed, skill, IQ, artistry and vision. An elite dribbler, an elite passer, an elite finisher, extremely two footed and brilliant in the air despite being only 5'8. The only man to score and assist in 2 World Cup finals. In the first of those finals he was 17 years old.
Straw man fallacy at its worst. At no point in our discussion has either of us been talking about club football. For you to start talking of Napoli and worse pretending I've denied ANYTHING about it is typically of the extreme delusion I insist you suffer from.You are the one in denial purposefully ignoring how much he failed with Napoli in European Cup losing to uber-super teams like Spartak when Sampdoria, Roma, Juve, Milan all played finals in European Cup.. Do you have any objection to that? Has he been a great performer in European competitions, mr know it all?
From the repeated mythical content in your post about past world cups. Yea
There is simply no way this is true. Because if you it were you wouldn't keel repeating bold faced lies about Maradoma at the 1990 world cup.
That's the problem with constantly lying like yourself. You can't keep up with what people actually say when building strawmen of their arguments to attack.Imagine thinking Maradona broke havoc in WC 90 and questioning other people's ages, talk about delusion
You obviously! Hence its why you keep repeatedly lying that I supposedly have a problem with Messi and experience bitterness towards him.
This below was from your posts:
And thats for starters.....
If you actually think this type of thing "shows" your respect for Maradona. You probably need to be committed to an asylum for the mentally untable...
I watched the game obviously . That's how I know why the refs never saw it.
.Did you see the reaction of English player, their protests? Yeah, definitely only VAR can see that
So because the players saw and protested it the ref must have too?Remember Lampard's goal vs Germany in 2010? The English players knew it crossed the line. Lampard knew. He and others protested to no avail. Did the Ref see it either? You have clearly missed the entire concept of why VAR was invented. To put an end to things like 1966, when the ball didn't cross the line, Maradona's hand of God goal in 86 and the disallowed goal of Lampard in 2010, to name but a few to stop happening. To catch an incident even the best of refs can miss amidst the heat of live action.....
You probably have a doctrate in practicing that kind of logic. That's how you can come up with the world's most idiotic take on what I stated earlier.The guy thinks superior club performance = superior NT performance, typical flat earther logic
More strawman bullshit. My post had feck all to do with the world cup nor any world cup records. I was debunking your rubbish claims about Messi at the Copa America and the caliber of striker he played alongside. The fact you glibly imagine citing Aguero's world cup record miraculously supports your ridiculous claims says all there is to say about you. I wont waste another second dealing with your extreme brand of insanity.
You clearly have me confused with the image in your mirror.
This isn't even an argument anymore