Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

[RedRonaldo]

I know you put much effort into stuff like this but in all honesty, I don't think there's much value in spread sheets like this. For me the only informational value it provides is that from the description you gave I derive that you seem to have a few misconceptions about R9. There's for instance no chance CR7 has skill moves over him since R9 was far better than him at that, same goes for creativity. And he was much more of a all action attacker than Cristiano. In Serie A games he at times barely entered the box and played much from midfield and winger positions. Or received the ball in the air up front, controlled him and directly went on devastating runs. He also scored 4 or 5 free kicks at Inter which is pretty good 1.5 seasons. I can only recommend watching the video I posted above since you seem to have a not so accurate image of him, probably shaped by his later years.

This actually aligns with my description regarding R9 dribbling/skills/ball control, so I am not sure what you are actually trying to argue against my points there. I get that you rate those higher than anything else, and I personally think its ok for people to rate those highly as this could be the reason people fall in love with football.

As for all action attacker, what I mean is, Cristiano has more weapons in his pockets during his peak, he can shoot with his left or right, from either angles too, and he can shoot long range screamer, can score long range knuckleball freekicks at impossible ball trajectory, can dribble/run with tricks in the final third from deep midfield/wings and shoot too (I know R9 does it better), can also out jumped the tallest defender and headed the ball powerfully towards goal too, these are what I meant "all action", not just being devastating in running and dribbling in high speed as in solo manner in linear sense.

As for creativity, what I mean is "creating chances", and what you meant maybe leaning towards "creating something out of nothing", so we might have different meaning there. For all your high praising of R9 Inter time, he only provided 4 assists over his whole season at his peak. And no, its not just numbers, he is just a brilliant individualist who is mostly focusing on his own solo games, but not actually bothering creating chances for others.

 

[redshaw]

R9 needs to be remembered more for his dazzling skill and ball control, seems many view him like a charging bull type player yet he is one of the most gifted. Was a privilege to watch him in Serie A.

 

[Zehner]

This actually aligns with my description regarding R9 dribbling/skills/ball control, so I am not sure what you are actually trying to argue against my points there. I get that you rate those higher than anything else, and I personally think its ok for people to rate those highly as this could be the reason people fall in love with football.

As for all action attacker, what I mean is, Cristiano has more weapons in his pockets during his peak, he can shoot with his left or right, from either angles too, and he can shoot long range screamer, can score long range knuckleball freekicks at impossible ball trajectory, can dribble/run with tricks in the final third from deep midfield/wings and shoot too (I know R9 does it better), can also out jumped the tallest defender and headed the ball powerfully towards goal too, these are what I meant "all action", not just being devastating in running and dribbling in high speed as in solo manner in linear sense.

As for creativity, what I mean is "creating chances", and what you meant maybe leaning towards "creating something out of nothing", so we might have different meaning there. For all your high praising of R9 Inter time, he only provided 4 assists over his whole season at his peak. And no, its not just numbers, he is just a brilliant individualist who is mostly focusing on his own solo games, but not actually bothering creating chances for others.

I think you should watch the video.

 

[Zehner]

I'm talking about 2010-2014 CR7, Arguably 2008-2014 CR7. He averaged 2.5+ dribbles per 90m in La Liga+Champions League over the span of 7 years, This is more than any other player excluding Messi in the top 2 leagues over the same period of time (Messi attempted twice as much dribbles per 90m). Overall, CR7 was an insane threat in 1 against 1 situations, He was consistently guarded by 2 defenders at all time.



You're right actually, It's not speculative. CR7 averaged 8.4 or slightly above between his la liga debut til the last day of 2014. But we shouldn't take whoscored that seriously tbh



CR7 in his debut season:
33G+10A in 35Apps=Goal contribution every 68 minutes
R9 (Only La Liga+European cup, for comparison measures because CR7 didn't play copa del ray):
39G+10A in 43Apps=Goal contribution every 78 minutes

CR7 played far deeper under Pellegrini, He was extremely involved in the build up. Played LW, RW and even, hear me out, CAM for a couple of games. R9 was a striker.

CR7 ranked 1# in europe in term of ball progressing that season, He was second only to Messi in dribbles completed (3.3 per 90m). And the most outstanding stats was on the creative side, 2.7 key passes per 90m, all from open play, This is *historical* number for a forward, For comparison, This figure is higher than any season in Messi career (!), Higher than Neymar in Barcelona, On par with absolute peak Ozil and only 10% lower than peak Kevin De Bruyne (19/20 season, Possibly the most prolific chance creating season of this generation in top 2 league).

He scored absurd amount of Solo goals too and his game was top tier entertainment:
youtube.com/watch?v=CsEECEyiGRE

R9 was never as complete as this, no even close in fact, and in this specific case, I don't think he even was a better dribbler.




This is just pure nonsense sorry, R9 was never close to being an equal passer to CR7 let alone better, When it comes to shooting technique it's not debatable, CR7 has a case for being the best shooting technician ever, The amount of outrageous shots he provided between 2009-2014 is unbelieveable and frankly unheard of since at least Hagi. R9 was a good shooter but never was known as a long range threat nor a threat from unexpected positions.

Couple on top of my head:
VS Rome 2007
VS Arsenal 2009
VS Atletico 2019
VS Spain 2018
VS Barcelona 2011 copa del ray final (The fact it was almost one man performance against the best team of all time with next to zero ball time give it a serious boost)
VS Bayern 2017
VS Atletico 2017
VS Wolfsburg 2016
VS Sweden 2013
VS Netherland 2012

I can go on and on, And i excluded La Liga/Premier league performance against top 5 sides, Which CR7 has plenty 10/10s.

I fear you have no clue what kind of player Ronaldo was. Can only repeat myself, watch the video.

 

[antohan]

To be fair, a medal where he didn't even feature a single minute isn't worth mentioning at all, even though he has quite a wonderful international career.

I disagree but that's not the point.

You are still not grasping the significance of what I was describing. With MvB permanently crocked, Brazil had the best striker in the world in Romario and yet the average Brazilian fan wanted to see Ronaldo on the pitch.

This is peak Romario we are talking about and no, it wasn't people being stupid and wanting to bench Romario for a 17yo Ronaldo, they just wanted to see Ronaldo thrown on and tearing it up.

I have no idea how it was like with Pelé in Sweden 1958. I've seen footage, but you see the footage already knowing that kid will go on to be Pelé. My best proxy for it was watching Ronaldo. He was a teenager with no discernible room for development/improvement except what would come with age/experience. Yeah, that had to be what seeing Pelé come through felt like.

It didn't happen to me with Maradona. He was evidently a very talented player, had already been at the 1982 World Cup, had been a world record transfer and was one of the best in the world, but the way he cranked it up a couple of gears above everyone else in 1986 was a surprise.

In the summer of '94, there was a sense of expectation throughout that World Cup that Ronaldo could do a Pelé. It wasn't a particularly exciting / high scoring tournament and the games were cagey drawn out affairs. It all came to a climax with the final being 0-0. A great game of football with some of the best defending you will see, which again makes it all the more remarkable that you had the Brazilians in the stadium shouting "Ronaldinho" in chorus. They truly and genuinely believed the man to break down that GOAT defence was this kiddo.

What would have happened if Parreira obliged, we will never know, but at the time it was a massive disappointment. Then he got his move to Europe and finally started tearing it up in the eyes of the whole world.

 

[Vidic178]

I fear you have no clue what kind of player Ronaldo was. Can only repeat myself, watch the video.

A highlight reel isn't an average game though.

 

[Lay]

That’s why this is all nonsense. A handful of fans in here may have seen a young Ronaldo but the absolute confidence to speak on his every move is staggering.
This was mid 90s. When we signed Pogba nobody on here had an accurate read on his style of play or consistency and that was 2016! Because nobody was watching Italian football even then. I still remember the fans on Juve forums laughing at the analysis on here. Not only could Utd fans watch mid 90s United but also PSV, La Liga and Serie A! It’s hard to do that now without streaming

I was entering my teens in the late 90s and had access to a few leagues. Hell I stayed up to 2am to watch the Brazilian Serie A. Maybe we had a dodgy tv but I saw a lot of Serie A, La Liga (and other random leagues) in the 90s. I remember watching Rivaldo and Kluivert on a weekly basis in the 90s on Sky, I watched the Copa America from 97 onwards on tv. You make it seem the 90's was 1950s! We aren't that old.

Also its almost 2023 and no on has an accurate analysis of Pogba's style still.

 

[Son]

No. Just no.

I'm not even one of those butthurt lads moaning about Cristiano. From the first "only god knows" I knew what the deal was.

Neither is in the top tier. Ronaldo could have, but injuries took that away. They are in the Demi-God tier.

If you are a Real fan, then yes, Cristiano is up there and Ronaldo was just lovely to have.

I’m pretty sure Cristiano is 4th or 5th on the list of all time greats with: Messi, Maradona, Pele and Di Stefano.

I tend to rank those 5 as the pinnacle personally.

In the future he will drop out of the top 5 and be replaced. Messi won’t that’s the difference but he’s still had a ridiculous career either way.

 

[Suckmapony]

Ronaldo was, obviously, the better player.

 

[antohan]

I’m pretty sure Cristiano is 4th or 5th on the list of all time greats with: Messi, Maradona, Pele and Di Stefano.

I tend to rank those 5 as the pinnacle personally.

In the future he will drop out of the top 5 and be replaced. Messi won’t that’s the difference but he’s still had a ridiculous career either way.

In that last paragraph you acknowledge he doesn't belong there in the first place. There isn't "permanent first tier" and "temporary first tier", the latter is second tier.

A second tier populated by the likes of Cruyff, Ronaldo, Beckenbauer and Platini. Personally, I'd argue Di Stéfano's lack of an international record squarely places him there as well. Not shabby at all.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I disagree but that's not the point.

You are still not grasping the significance of what I was describing. With MvB permanently crocked, Brazil had the best striker in the world in Romario and yet the average Brazilian fan wanted to see Ronaldo on the pitch.

This is peak Romario we are talking about and no, it wasn't people being stupid and wanting to bench Romario for a 17yo Ronaldo, they just wanted to see Ronaldo thrown on and tearing it up.

I have no idea how it was like with Pelé in Sweden 1958. I've seen footage, but you see the footage already knowing that kid will go on to be Pelé. My best proxy for it was watching Ronaldo. He was a teenager with no discernible room for development/improvement except what would come with age/experience. Yeah, that had to be what seeing Pelé come through felt like.

It didn't happen to me with Maradona. He was evidently a very talented player, had already been at the 1982 World Cup, had been a world record transfer and was one of the best in the world, but the way he cranked it up a couple of gears above everyone else in 1986 was a surprise.

In the summer of '94, there was a sense of expectation throughout that World Cup that Ronaldo could do a Pelé. It wasn't a particularly exciting / high scoring tournament and the games were cagey drawn out affairs. It all came to a climax with the final being 0-0. A great game of football with some of the best defending you will see, which again makes it all the more remarkable that you had the Brazilians in the stadium shouting "Ronaldinho" in chorus. They truly and genuinely believed the man to break down that GOAT defence was this kiddo.

What would have happened if Parreira obliged, we will never know, but at the time it was a massive disappointment. Then he got his move to Europe and finally started tearing it up in the eyes of the whole world.

I've watched through the whole 94 WC at that time, Brazil play with 2 forwards - Romario and Bebeto. Both of them are brilliant of course, but I am not saying we should expect Ronaldo to replace them as Brazil main forward pairs, he could have at least play some minutes as sub, at least once throughout the tournament, in order to take some credits in winning the trophy.

But no, he didn't, not even a single min.

And I still remember In final game, they even play some subs in later stage, some bloke name Viola, who is a forward too, and who went on to dribble a few and pose some threats in final 15 mins in hope to win the game. It was quite an impressive cameo from my memory actually.

R9 didn't feature at all, not in the final game when they sub in Viola, a forward player. Nor did he play any single mins throughout the tournament, where Brazil haven give minus to other forwards named Muller. And these are the forwards player who had actually feature in Brazil 94 WC:

Romario, Bebeto, Viola, Muller

So please don't keep using Ballon Do'r winner Romario as an excuse. There were also Bebeto, Viola and Muller who had featured in WC at that time.

 

[antohan]

I've watched through the whole 94 WC at that time, Brazil play with 2 forwards - Romario and Bebeto. Both of them are brilliant of course, but I am not saying we should expect Ronaldo to replace them as Brazil main forward pairs, he could have at least play some minutes as sub, at least once throughout the tournament, in order to take some credits in winning the trophy.

But no, he didn't, not even a single min.

And I still remember In final game, they even play some subs in later stage, some bloke name Viola, who is a forward too, and who went on to dribble a few and pose some threats in final 15 mins in hope to win the game. It was quite an impressive cameo from my memory actually.

R9 didn't feature at all, not in the final game when they sub in Viola, a forward player. Nor did he play any single mins throughout the tournament, where Brazil haven give minus to other forwards named Muller. And these are the forwards player who had actually feature in Brazil 94 WC:

Romario, Bebeto, Viola, Muller

So please don't keep using Ballon Do'r winner Romario as an excuse. There were also Bebeto, Viola and Muller who had featured in WC at that time.

Excuses for what exactly? What are you smoking?

Parreira simply did what every international manager does during a tournament: iterate through the known quantities first. International managers are usually boring like that.

Argentina went into the last World Cup having to rejig the midfield after Lo Celso's injury. Alongside the untouchable De Paul, Scaloni tried Paredes and Papu Gómez first, then he tried Guido Rodríguez and Mac Allister. It was only up the creek against Mexico that he finally landed on Enzo with Mac Allister.

Argentina were actually lucky they were forced into iterating at the group stage and not inside 90 minutes chasing an adverse knockout result like Deschamps had to do.

 

[Kelly15]

Well, for me Cristiano's peak was between 2011 and 2014. And I don't think that the fact that Cristiano's goals are more "systemized" should weigh against him. Because the best players have always played for the best teams. See Pelé at Santos and Messi at Barcelona. Barcelona was a well-oiled machine that tried the same moves 20x per game. And you don't say that R9 at his peak was better than Messi or Pelé because their goals were more "systemized and less individual". The fact is that Cristiano didn't have to score so many individual goals because he doesn't need to, because the team was very good collectively. But when he needed it, he did it.

I don't know if you know but Cristiano at 33 broke the speed record in the history of the world cups in the game against Spain. If I'm not mistaken it hit 34km/h. Then in the game against Germany in the Euro 2021 he crossed the field in 10 seconds if I'm not mistaken to score the goal. And when he was younger he was even faster. So I don't know if R9 was that much faster than CR7 in his prime. On the contrary, I think the speed of both was very similar.

You're mistaken. Ronaldo was the fastest at the 2018 word cup.

"According to FIFA, the Bayern Munich winger "Arjen Robben" recorded a speed of 37km/h, the fastest ever clocked by a footballer at the World Cup, during the match between Netherlands and Spain played on Friday, June 13, 2014.

FIFA also claimed that the he has surpassed Theo Walcott’s previous record of 35.7kmph."

 

[RedRonaldo]

Excuses for what exactly? What are you smoking?

Parreira simply did what every international manager does during a tournament: iterate through the known quantities first. International managers are usually boring like that.

Argentina went into the last World Cup having to rejig the midfield after Lo Celso's injury. Alongside the untouchable De Paul, Scaloni tried Paredes and Papu Gómez first, then he tried Guido Rodríguez and Mac Allister. It was only up the creek against Mexico that he finally landed on Enzo with Mac Allister.

Argentina were actually lucky they were forced into iterating at the group stage and not inside 90 minutes chasing an adverse knockout result like Deschamps had to do.

Yeh even though most R9 arguments here are based on “could have been” in nostalgia sense. But I think your posts has successfully pushed this to another level.

0 mins in 94 WC, worth several posts of yours explaining in detail how good he was or could have been over that tournament. You are leaving me speechless, literally.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I think you should watch the video.

Sure I did. In fact I think I’ve watched his video many times, like every once in a while. He was brilliant in dribbling at full speed during his peak, I enjoy watching it alot.

In fact I enjoy watching both his video and Cristiano’s one (pre 14) during their peak too. And my opinion on the 2 doesn’t changed abit, they were actually formed by watching these 2 players in depth over their peak period. And for some strange reason you just assume others haven’t watch, because they don’t share the exact same opinions of yours.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I'm talking about 2010-2014 CR7, Arguably 2008-2014 CR7. He averaged 2.5+ dribbles per 90m in La Liga+Champions League over the span of 7 years, This is more than any other player excluding Messi in the top 2 leagues over the same period of time (Messi attempted twice as much dribbles per 90m). Overall, CR7 was an insane threat in 1 against 1 situations, He was consistently guarded by 2 defenders at all time.



You're right actually, It's not speculative. CR7 averaged 8.4 or slightly above between his la liga debut til the last day of 2014. But we shouldn't take whoscored that seriously tbh

1- Messi's worst season in that handpicked range is better than Ronaldo's best season.
And that's the comparison with the best dribblers of that generation. Messi was close to a 5.6 in 2008. A 6.2 in 2011. Not sure why we are excluding him here.

2- In the league and UCL in those seasons:
2009-2010: 8.50
2010-2011: 8.11
2011-2012: 8.33
2012-2013: 8.04
2013-2014: 8.51

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

In that last paragraph you acknowledge he doesn't belong there in the first place. There isn't "permanent first tier" and "temporary first tier", the latter is second tier.

A second tier populated by the likes of Cruyff, Ronaldo, Beckenbauer and Platini. Personally, I'd argue Di Stéfano's lack of an international record squarely places him there as well. Not shabby at all.

Yup, exactly. You could argue the other two 90s players. But either way, none of the guys above are anywhere near the top tier. Trying to sneak one in there and coming up with things like "temporary first tier" is hilarious.

 

[Zehner]

Sure I did. In fact I think I’ve watched his video many times, like every once in a while. He was brilliant in dribbling at full speed during his peak, I enjoy watching it alot.

In fact I enjoy watching both his video and Cristiano’s one (pre 14) during their peak too. And my opinion on the 2 doesn’t changed abit, they were actually formed by watching these 2 players in depth over their peak period. And for some strange reason you just assume others haven’t watch, because they don’t share the exact same opinions of yours.

Well, if you did then I see no real point in continuing from here onwards.

 

[CrockedRain]

What would his prime be? 2012-2015?
Because since 2011-2012, he peaked at 2.2 dribbles per 90 mins.

So no, he wasn't even close to the best dribblers in his generation. You're overvaluing Ronaldo's dribbling. To use your adjective, it's "insane".

1- Messi's worst season in that handpicked range is better than Ronaldo's best season.
And that's the comparison with the best dribblers of that generation. Messi was close to a 5.6 in 2008. A 6.2 in 2011. Not sure why we are excluding him here.

2- In the league and UCL in those seasons:
2009-2010: 8.50
2010-2011: 8.11
2011-2012: 8.33
2012-2013: 8.04
2013-2014: 8.51

Nobody talked about Messi, This is R9 peak vs CR7 peak discussion if you forgot. I've never claimed CR7 was a comparable dribbler to Messi, It's absurd.

Regarding Whoscored ratings, I'm talking properly on his debut til the end of 2014 calendar year, Meaning the first half of 14/15 taken into account. And i specified "La Liga". I just calculated it, It come at exactly 8.4 for over 170 games.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Well, if you did then I see no real point in continuing from here onwards.

Acknowledging and comparing are 2 very different stage. Maybe you should also watch Cristiano’s pre 14 video too, if you wish to engage in next stage of any meaningful discussion in comparing the two.

 

[Zehner]

Acknowledging and comparing are 2 very different stage. Maybe you should also watch Cristiano’s pre 14 video too, if you wish to engage in next stage of any meaningful discussion in comparing the two.

Oh, I do. He was great

 

[antohan]

Yeh even though most R9 arguments here are based on “could have been” in nostalgia sense. But I think your posts has successfully pushed this to another level.

0 mins in 94 WC, worth several posts of yours explaining in detail how good he was or could have been over that tournament. You are leaving me speechless, literally.

I don't need to argue Ronaldo's corner, his football does the talking. I just tried to convey the real-life story of how Brazilians so badly wanted to see this kid given those minutes despite having the best striker in the world on the pitch to begin with.

Most on here weren't alive at the time and certainly weren't living in Brazil. Most on here didn't see how it evolved into a Messi v CR9 of sorts which dragged on to 1998 and even 2002. It certainly cost Brazil not having Romario as an option off the bench in that final in Paris.

But I guess we aren't on a football forum to talk about football, we are only here to submit to the wishes of the Church of PRonaldo and never speak positively about anyone other than him, not even when not making any reference whatsoever to Cristiano himself.

Jackass

 

[RedRonaldo]

I don't need to argue Ronaldo's corner, his football does the talking. I just tried to convey the real-life story of how Brazilians so badly wanted to see this kid given those minutes despite having the best striker in the world on the pitch to begin with.

Most on here weren't alive at the time and certainly weren't living in Brazil. Most on here didn't see how it evolved into a Messi v CR9 of sorts which dragged on to 1998 and even 2002. It certainly cost Brazil not having Romario as an option off the bench in that final in Paris.

But I guess we aren't on a football forum to talk about football, we are only here to submit to the wishes of the Church of PRonaldo and never speak positively about anyone other than him, not even when not making any reference whatsoever to Cristiano himself.

Jackass

Such an overreaction. So cringe to read.

Ok thanks for sharing anyway, yeh he could have been great in 94 WC, maybe somewhere in parallel universe. Yeh we all know that now. Thanks alot for your insight.

 

[Isafim]

Such an overreaction. So cringe to read.

Ok thanks for sharing anyway, yeh he could have been great in 94 WC, maybe somewhere in parallel universe. Yeh we all know that now. Thanks alot for your insight.

Yes, I believe that R9 has never reached his full potential, which is so common with Brazilians, but why give him credit for something he hasn't done.

Would've, Could've, Should've

 

[Isafim]

1- Messi's worst season in that handpicked range is better than Ronaldo's best season.
And that's the comparison with the best dribblers of that generation. Messi was close to a 5.6 in 2008. A 6.2 in 2011. Not sure why we are excluding him here.

2- In the league and UCL in those seasons:
2009-2010: 8.50
2010-2011: 8.11
2011-2012: 8.33
2012-2013: 8.04
2013-2014: 8.51

Why are you comparing Messi's dribbling with CR7? Messi is the best dribbler in history. The topic was about R9 vs CR7 right? So it makes no sense for you to mention Messi. CR7 was for years the best dribbler in the Premier League, the UCL, the World Cup and in Spain he was only behind Messi who is the GOAT of dribbling. Incidentally, R9 was a much inferior dribbler to Messi as well.

 

[Spoony]

Let's be honest Cristiano will be remembered as the modern day Muller. The other was simply a once in a generation footballer.

 

[Glorio]

Let's be honest Cristiano will be remembered as the modern day Muller. The other was simply a once in a generation footballer.

Come on, that's not true at all.


Anyways, I categorically insist that Ronaldo is miles better than Ronaldo. How is this even an argument?!

 

[antohan]

Such an overreaction. So cringe to read.

Ok thanks for sharing anyway, yeh he could have been great in 94 WC, maybe somewhere in parallel universe. Yeh we all know that now. Thanks alot for your insight.

Ok, jackass

 

[Vidic178]

Let's be honest Cristiano will be remembered as the modern day Muller. The other was simply a once in a generation footballer.

One of the highest assists in history, was playing LW whilst getting his insane goal tallies, and one of the best dribblers in the world before his knee injury.

Unfortunately you might be right, as most football fans have an insane recency bias, and will only remember is goal poaching years from age 32-37. Not to mention the insane amount of hatred the media seems to have for him.

 

[Revan]

A lot of people here failing to grasp just how phenomenal that young Ronaldo was.

This is a guy who was taken to a World Cup aged 17 and, as the Italian shutout materialised, had the Brazilian fans chanting his name as the solution.

Imagine that, peak Romario and Bebeto on the pitch and the fans banging on about this kid who played for Cruzeiro. How many 17 year olds would you gamble a World Cup final on?

Had the penalties gone a different way Parreira would forever be remembered as the guy who lost a World Cup fot lack of a goal... with Ronaldo on the bench.

Why should we talk about what Brazilians chanted instead of the fact that he played a total of 0 seconds in that world cup? We are judging his career not Brazilians chanting skills.

 

[De Portago]

One of the highest assists in history, was playing LW whilst getting his insane goal tallies, and one of the best dribblers in the world before his knee injury.

Unfortunately you might be right, as most football fans have an insane recency bias, and will only remember is goal poaching years from age 32-37. Not to mention the insane amount of hatred the media seems to have for him.

Well that's only natural and has nothing to do with bias, the longer he goes on being the player he currently is style wise, the less the people are going to remember that he was quite different once upon a time. If he wanted to be remembered as an elite dribbler, he could have retired when his dribbling skill started to wane and everyone would remember a quite different player. (Obviously it would have wreaked havoc with his all time records and stats, but then again, you can't have your cake and eat it too as the English saying goes)

 

[antohan]

Why should we talk about what Brazilians chanted instead of the fact that he played a total of 0 seconds in that world cup? We are judging his career not Brazilians chanting skills.

Another... I'm not judging his career or putting that forward as evidence of anything. I'm simply describing the excitement around him from people who were already treated to the best striker around and the best partnership in that tournament.

Do you remember Cristiano's debut? He was raw, he lacked end product, but you knew he was special. Inconsequential as it was, nothing could remove that grin off your face. Would he be the next Giggs, or maybe even Best? Still, you probably wouldn't be hellbent on Brazil bringing that player on against Italy in a World Cup final.

That's what made the Brazilian Ronaldo Fenómeno, he was 17 and was as much the finished article as anyone had ever been. He was the real deal.

If you don't like it or it's not convenient to whatever agenda, I don't care one bit. I don't have one, just sharing and celebrating what I've been treated to.

 

[Revan]

Another... I'm not judging his career or putting that forward as evidence of anything. I'm simply describing the excitement around him from people who were already treated to the best striker around and the best partnership in that tournament.

Do you remember Cristiano's debut? He was raw, he lacked end product, but you knew he was special. Inconsequential as it was, nothing could remove that grin off your face. Would he be the next Giggs, or maybe even Best? Still, you probably wouldn't be hellbent on Brazil bringing that player on against Italy in a World Cup final.

That's what made the Brazilian Ronaldo Fenómeno, he was 17 and was as much the finished article as anyone had ever been. He was the real deal.

If you don't like it or it's not convenient to whatever agenda, I don't care one bit. I don't have one, just sharing and celebrating what I've been treated to.

I do not think anyone is arguing against Luis being the best young player ever. At 18 he was better than Cristiano at 20.

But over the course of their careers, Cristiano was the far better player (and IMO had a higher peak). Of course, we never saw Luis’ peak cause of injuries (and not being disciplined like Cristiano and Messi), so it could be argued that if Luis had reached his peak, he would have been better. Cristiano on the other hand surpassed even the most optimistic expectations. We would have been happy for him to turn out to be as good as Giggs/Beckham, but he turned out to be better than Best and Cruyff.

 

[antohan]

I do not think anyone is arguing against Luis being the best young player ever. At 18 he was better than Cristiano at 20.

But over the course of their careers, Cristiano was the far better player (and IMO had a higher peak). Of course, we never saw Luis’ peak cause of injuries (and not being disciplined like Cristiano and Messi), so it could be argued that if Luis had reached his peak, he would have been better. Cristiano on the other hand surpassed even the most optimistic expectations. We would have been happy for him to turn out to be as good as Giggs/Beckham, but he turned out to be better than Best and Cruyff.

I do think Ronaldo's peak was better, the promise he didn't fulfill was extending it over an entire career, which is what Cristiano has done. I think that takes them both to the Cruyff/Best tier, not a higher one.

Small margins and down to preferences / angles. E.g. if you owned a club and were offered to have any of them aged 17 and staying at the club for their entire career as it panned out, you'd pick Cristiano, no two ways about that.

 

[GameOn]

One of the highest assists in history, was playing LW whilst getting his insane goal tallies, and one of the best dribblers in the world before his knee injury.

Unfortunately you might be right, as most football fans have an insane recency bias, and will only remember is goal poaching years from age 32-37. Not to mention the insane amount of hatred the media seems to have for him.

Being compared to Müller is not a knock at all, it's actually a compliment and quite a fair comparison.

Müller league stats: 427 apps, 365 goals, 98 assists
Müller international stats for club: 71 apps, 62 goals (assists weren't recorded)
Müller international stats for country: 62 apps, 68 goals (world cup exclusive: 13 apps, 14 goals, 6 assists)

Ronaldo league stats: 651 apps, 498 goals, 156 assists (corrected)
Ronaldo international stats for club: 195 apps, 143 goals, 52 assists
Ronaldo international stats for country: 196 apps, 118 goals, 43 assists

Over their entire careers this is their goal/game and assist/game ratio (the latter for Müller only in games where they were recorded of course):

Müller: 0.88 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game
Ronaldo: 0.73 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game (corrected)

 

[DrRodo]

This recent bias against CR7 post world cup and utd exit is very annoying

As awesome as R9 was, CR7 had a better peak and a longer career

This compilation of goals probably has just been forgotten by some people who speak about him as a tap in merchant. R9 would be proud to have scored some of these

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cm1Yrm5oCw9/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

[Righteous Steps]

Being compared to Müller is not a knock at all, it's actually a compliment and quite a fair comparison.

Müller league stats: 427 apps, 365 goals, 98 assists
Müller international stats for club: 71 apps, 62 goals (assists weren't recorded)
Müller international stats for country: 62 apps, 68 goals (world cup exclusive: 13 apps, 14 goals, 6 assists)

Ronaldo league stats: 651 apps, 498 goals, 68 assists
Ronaldo international stats for club: 195 apps, 143 goals, 52 assists
Ronaldo international stats for country: 196 apps, 118 goals, 43 assists

Over their entire careers this is their goal/game and assist/game ratio (the latter for Müller only in games where they were recorded of course):

Müller: 0.88 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game
Ronaldo: 0.73 goals/game and 0.15 assists/game

Good post.

 

[CrockedRain]

Being compared to Müller is not a knock at all, it's actually a compliment and quite a fair comparison.

Müller league stats: 427 apps, 365 goals, 98 assists
Müller international stats for club: 71 apps, 62 goals (assists weren't recorded)
Müller international stats for country: 62 apps, 68 goals (world cup exclusive: 13 apps, 14 goals, 6 assists)

Ronaldo league stats: 651 apps, 498 goals, 68 assists
Ronaldo international stats for club: 195 apps, 143 goals, 52 assists
Ronaldo international stats for country: 196 apps, 118 goals, 43 assists

Over their entire careers this is their goal/game and assist/game ratio (the latter for Müller only in games where they were recorded of course):

Müller: 0.88 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game
Ronaldo: 0.73 goals/game and 0.15 assists/game

Yes, Muller was a more complete player than Maradona and better than Zidane on the creative front. See how poor your take is? Honestly just terrible. CR7 in his prime was nothing like Gerd Muller (And i'm not one of those that claim Gerd Muller was only a tap in merchant, People get that impression from the World Cups, Where he functioned as a poacher, But Bayern Gerd Muller had many other qualities to him), You're just repeating an absurd narrative his haters tried to attach to him over the years, Or maybe you're one of them.

And your figures are wrong, Leaving context aside and the fact Gerd Muller played upfront since he was a teenager, CR7 has 289 assists in his career, Almost double the amount you posted.

 

[GameOn]

Yes, Muller was a more complete player than Maradona and better than Zidane on the creative front. See how poor your take is? Honestly just terrible. CR7 in his prime was nothing like Gerd Muller (And i'm not one of those that claim Gerd Muller was only a tap in merchant, People get that impression from the World Cups, Where he functioned as a poacher, But Bayern Gerd Muller had many other qualities to him), You're just repeating an absurd narrative his haters tried to attach to him over the years, Or maybe you're one of them.

And your figures are wrong, Leaving context aside and the fact Gerd Muller played upfront since he was a teenager, CR7 has 289 assists in his career, Almost double the amount you posted.

I really missed assists for him, that's my fault, just looked it up: He has 156 assists in 651 league games. My bad.

So their overall numbers are like this:

Müller: 0.88 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game
Ronaldo: 0.73 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game

Where did I compare Müller with Maradona or Zidane? Both played a completely different position.

As for Ronaldo: He has been playing Müller's position (aka central striker) for most of his time in Madrid. While at first he was a left winger who often switched into the position of a true striker during the game early on, he became a real striker (even on paper) from 2013 onward.

He even said so in an interview to Marca: " "I'm different now, I'm penalty-box player, not so much on the wing, because you score more goals from there so I changed my position."

That's why you can 100% compare Ronaldo to Müller.

Sure, early on Ronaldo was more flashy (especially when he played on the wings and went into 1 vs 1s), but his actual "peak" came as a pure striker.

And I don't know why I should be a hater? I already said that I actually think it's an honor to be compared to the likes of Müller etc.

 

[CrockedRain]

I really missed assists for him, that's my fault, just looked it up: He has 156 assists in 651 league games. My bad.

So their overall numbers are like this:

Müller: 0.88 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game
Ronaldo: 0.73 goals/game and 0.24 assists/game

Where did I compare Müller with Maradona or Zidane? Both played a completely different position.

As for Ronaldo: He has been playing Müller's position (aka central striker) for most of his time in Madrid. While at first he was a left winger who often switched into the position of a true striker during the game early on, he became a real striker (even on paper) from 2013 onward.

He even said so in an interview to Marca: " "I'm different now, I'm penalty-box player, not so much on the wing, because you score more goals from there so I changed my position."

That's why you can 100% compare Ronaldo to Müller.

Sure, early on Ronaldo was more flashy (especially when he played on the wings and went into 1 vs 1s), but his actual "peak" came as a pure striker.

And I don't know why I should be a hater? I already said that I actually think it's an honor to be compared to the likes of Müller etc.

"Sure, early on Ronaldo was more flashy (especially when he played on the wings and went into 1 vs 1s), but his actual "peak" came as a pure striker."

This is wrong on all levels, First, Ronaldo peak definitely came when he was a winger, People fecking forget he was already 30 years old by 2014 (The time he stopped being ball dominant all encompassing winger/pseudo winger) and past his physical prime. You're basically taking his longevity and use it as negative by comparing his post-prime game to how he played in his best years, This is the kind of mistake/hostile argument i only see with CR7, With other greats they tend to do the absolute opposite and forget the fact they basically were near retirement by 30 years old and couldn't even cut it at the top level, But with Ronaldo, his adaptability and maintenance at the highest level is used constantly to draw a false picture to how he was *in his prime*.

Second, Ronaldo never was a pure striker in madrid, Not even in 2016-2018 and arguably not even in Juventus shirt. It's only at 36 years of age that he became a lone striker, An age said Muller already retired.

3., So would you say 96-98 R9 is a comparable player to Gerd Muller? What about 2012 Messi? Because according to your definition they're much more fitting than CR7.

4. If you want to compare Gerd Muller to CR7 then you maybe could do that for past-his-prime version of CR7, 2015-2021, Which i believe has a case for already being better than Gerd Muller. But when we're talking about CR7 in retrospect, We're necessarily talking about his prime level because nobody is going to take Pele period in NY Cosmos as a representation for what he was in his prime. To remind you all, CR7 in his prime was a player that scored consistently over 60 goals a season for club and country and added 15-25 assists from the wing, Was among the best dribblers in europe, Was among the best chance creators in europe, Was among the most dominant ball progressors, Was among the best dead ball shooters, Was possibly the best distance shooter, among the most fouled players etc etc. And that's before we get into individual traits like his unreal speed and agility, his two footed game, his style and flair, aerial game, his passing precision... R9 in his peak never showed set of skills as eclectic as prime CR7 let alone Gerd Muller.