Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
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Probably, yes. She was heavily involved in the production of the movies as I understand it. But even it she hadn't been, the goblins have the same features in the books, so any designer would have come up with something similar, if they wanted to be faithful to the source material.
But again, I want to highlight that I don't think J.K. Rowling is a raging antisemite that consciously designed a race of characters with nefarious motives. Rather she leaned on common lore about goblins, which definitely is inspired by centuries old tropes about Jews - whether she knew it or not. This is nothing new, and many other fictional races and characters have faced similar criticism.
I think there could definitely be some substance to the idea that visual depictions of goblins might have some basis in anti-semitism. If you google image search goblins there’s a lot of images of goblins looking similar to caricatures of Jews. Blaming Rowling for the way that goblins have always been depicted in print and on the screen is obviously mental.
Is this her fault too?
Is this her fault too?
Most likely. But that’s besides the point, I think. As others already said, the lore around goblins tends to be based on antisemitic tropes. Quite heavily, actually. Now that’s not Rowling‘s fault. The issue is more that she just made use of them without trying to get rid of that connotation. Which, while obviously not ideal, is hardly the end of the world and likely something she didn’t know better, like plenty of writers before her.
The issue I see nowadays is that she’s been made aware of these things numerous times and instead of acknowledging the underlying issues, she’s doubling down on it with this game. Which for me is the point where all this starts to become problematic.
You misunderstand. He's not saying that she's being antisemitic, just pointing out all of the ways that she's being antisemitic. Or something
Not this. They’re being paid anyway.
I meant more in an artistic sense. Money is one thing, but it must suck to pour your heart and soul into such an ambitious creation for years only for people to boycott it because the creator of the books that the games are based on is a turd.
But I can understand the people who wants to boycott it too. It's a tricky matter. Especially if good sales means more money for Jowling Kowling herself.
It's a beautiful building inside and out, as an aside.That's almost as wacky as most actual fecking anti-semitic conspiracy theories.
There's a star on the floor because they filmed it in Australia House in London and that's what the floor of Australia House looks like.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't recall any mainstream fantasy works prior to Harry Potter in which goblins are depicted as being involved in banking/obsessed with gold. I'm also not particularly aware of that being a theme of folklore surrounding them?
No, it's not common at all.
The Clash of Clans thing? Surely that doesn't predate Harry Potter?
Also, goblins as thieves/tricksters is an established fantasy trope originating in folklore. Goblins as bankers is, as far as I can tell, a Rowling thing.
A quick wiki search reveals that it's named after a folktale about goblins tricking greedy humans into coming into their caves and gathering up what they think is gold, which in the light of day turns out to be clods of earth.
That's the trickster golbin archetype.
I don’t think Rowling is consciously antisemitic with the goblin thing, she’s just like most 60 something 90s liberals - see Baddiel and the blackface thing - who simply don’t ever interrogate their ingrained systemic prejudices (or 30 year old ethical template) because they’ve always seen themselves as “the good guys.”
Almost nothing in the Harry Potter universe is original. My wife and I watched the films again over the Christmas period and it's all lifted from Roal Dahl, Tolkein and other fantasy/fiction authors with minor spins on them to make them different enough to not be outright plagiarism.
Next up; leprechauns are gold hoarding anti-semites.
Smaug is antisemitic as he hoarded gold.
So. Tricky and known to deceive humans with gold. Plus well known to be greedy. I don’t think I’ve even read the stupid book which features goblin bankers but inferring that she’s antisemitic because she chose to make her bankers goblins seems absolutely nuts.
Further to this the 1st description of a goblin at the bank in the 1st book doesn't mention anything in the way they are depicted in the movie with big common Jewish tropes of hook noses and the like, also Jon Stewart himself debunked all of what was claimed he said in a video he released.
I also can’t even understand what the antisemitic thought process might have been. She’s writing a book in which she decides to put an evil fantasy creature in charge of a bank and her decision to choose goblins is antisemitic because… goblins look Jewish? Should she have chosen a less Jewish looking fictional monster? Is that why she’s being accused of being an antisemite?
If you've a choice to use fairly obvious anti-Semitic tropes or not use them then you probably shouldn't use them. She may not have been aware of it at the time of writing but my brother said that when he watched the movie with his kids, who are quite young and only got into Harry Potter recently enough, he was surprised and googled it to see if there was kickback because it seemed so blatant.
I'm going to watch one of the Harry Potter films now actually
Explain it to me like I’m 8. What was the “fairly obvious antisemitic tropes” she chose to use in her book?
I haven’t read the books since I was a kid, but the whole secretive sub human group obsessed with money and accruing it, treated with suspicion and generally untrustworthy to outsiders. Put in place solely to run the financial world
Short lads who don't go outside much known for their craftsmanship and materialism. They're pretty clearly Tolkien/Norse mythology dwarves with a different name.
Same way HP elves are more like, well, goblins.
And where in the books is any of the above linked to being Jewish?!
Yeah, you are right, it seems to be much more of a movie problem than a book problem. The only physical descriptions in the books seem to be pointed nose, pointed ears and long fingers. No red flags there, so I stand corrected on my earlier post.
Still, the depictions in the movies are very clearly based on anti-semitic tropes, and you can read about how Rowling was consulted on very minor details in the production process. Make of that what you will. I don't think there was any negative motivation from anyone, so it's a question of whether the intent matters. It just seems a little funny to me, that those depictions ended up the movies.
They’re very clearly based on the way goblins have always been portrayed on print/film beforehand!
Now maybe, just maybe, Rowling should have demanded to have been involved in the art direction and insisted that the goblins were portrayed in a way that was visually different from the way goblins have always been represented, in case viewers got the wrong impression?
Whatever, spinning her failure to do so as deliberate antisemitism on her part is an outrageous stretch.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Who are you arguing with here? It can't be Mike Smalling.
The thought process might be similar to the "thought process" that led her to give the only East Asian character a nonsensical name, "Cho Chang". In other words, not much thought at all, just coasting on vibes/feelings.
Bit too similar to cha-ching in my opinion. Yet more hidden evidence of an anti-Semitic agenda?
You asked for examples of obvious AntiSemitic tropes, so I just highlighted the ones associated with the goblins that I can remember from back then. I’m sort of confused by what you’re asking here, are you asking me where in the books are these tropes then associated with being Jewish?
My initial post on the topic was just calling into question this idea a few posters have that her depiction of goblins is in keeping with established fantasy tropes/folkloric traditions.
They clearly aren't. In folklore goblins are tricksters existing on a sort of sliding scale between mischievous and malicious, and when they're associated with stealing things, it's usually as a means to trick or inconvenience humans, rather than because of greed. Mainstream fantasy depictions tend to depict them as malicious and either stupid or bestial. The idea of goblins running banks and being obsessed with gold isn't a preexisting thing Rowling picked up.
That doesn't necessarily mean I'm saying she's actively antisemitic, just that I don't buy that particular defence. I broadly agree with @Mockney and @Withnail, although my suspicion is that her Goblins and their bank are just a repackaging of various depictions of fantasy Dwarves running banks (which themselves come with their own discussion about antisemitic tropes in fantasy). She may even have changed it to Goblins precisely to avoid that association (although she does like to take established fantasy concepts and rename them to make them seem fresh).
I think the one we can agree on is that the costume designers on the films have done her absolutely no favours.
@V.O. - just seen you've responded to my post with a similar observation on her Goblins and fantasy Dwarves.
There’s also the thought process between the student who keeps causing explosions at Hogwarts being… oh yeah, the only Irish student
Yeah, exactly.
It’s rarely as explicit as that though. Obviously it’d be a very different ball game if the goblins took a break from their banking to celebrate Hanukkah in one book. Like sometimes things have to be implicitly understood, otherwise you’ll sit there and argue Animal Farm is just about talking animals and Stalin has nothing to do with it.
This isn’t to say I think the work is antisemitic in nature, but those tropes were to characterise the goblins. The same way that I don’t think she set out to discriminate against the Irish, but having the one wizard who creates explosions be Irish was pretty clumsy