Touching a ball isn’t winning it. If you touch it but it’s still under the attackers control then you haven’t won possession and it’s a foul
VAR and Refs | General Discussion | May 15: Premier League clubs to vote on proposal to scrap VAR from next season
- Thread starter Samid
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That isn't a rule at all though.
Although it seems to be what they inexplicably judged when Bruno was clearly taken down by Ramsdale in the box a few weeks ago, when moving away from goal.
Could we argue that ball was under Weigy's control though? He'd kind of nicked it forwards and was running onto it, but maybe not under control?
Difficult one. The McTom one was definitely a pen without any doubt, I thought Bruno was too v Arsenal, and I'd have liked to see the Wan Bissaka Arsenal one too. That got glazed over.
In common sense i actually hate penalties like that Weghorst one where the defender is just kicking it away & the attacker puts his leg there. Problem is that it’s been given for ages now and for them to suddenly decide that this isn’t a penalty is just ridiculous. Worst bit is that they will give it for someone next week
Why wouldn’t they be a penalty? Defender caught napping and the opposition took the ball. Of course it’s always a foul and a penalty.
Because common sense says that the punishment should vaguely fit the crime. In other areas of the pitch the referee uses their judgement when giving out yellow cards. They take into account things like how bad the foul was, how intentional it was, what part of the pitch it happened on, how early in the game it is, how nasty it was. When calling fouls they consider whether there was enough contact, did the player touch the ball, how much of a touch did they get vs how much of the player, did their team still have the ball afterwards ie. play advantage.
Imagine if there were random spots on the pitch where a foul inside them would be given as a penalty. It would make no sense. It would make no sense because a penalty is basically a goal so the requirements for it should be high.
There is no reason to think that referees shouldn't use the same thought process when deciding on penalties in the box vs using something like an indirect free kick or whether to simply ignore it completely because the attacker had 0 control of the ball.
If you ask the question "why did the attacker go for the ball in the box when they had no chance of getting it under control" and the answer was "to try and win a penalty by getting a touch a fraction of a second before the defender" then it probably shouldn't be a penalty.
I don't see how that's the same logic at all. In both of those examples in your first paragraph the defender straight up fouls the attacker. I said that the defender getting a touch doesn't mean he has carte blanche to take the player out with the follow through. We've seen loads of examples where they give the foul in that circumstance.
In this case if the defender gets a minor touch on the ball but didn't win it or take it away from the attacker and cleans him out then it's a foul.
The ref here bottled it and left it for VAR and VAR bottled it and backed the on-field decision. It's happened a few times this season and it's because of this new higher bar for the nonsensical clear and obvious error rule that shouldn't be a consideration at all because it's introducing subjectivity into proceedings.
Sky were still banging on about the Bruno goal and Rashford being offside in an interview with Howard Webb last night.
There’s been a multitude of more controversial incidents since that one, yet it’s still being highlighted.
There is a definite media narrative against United and it’s affecting the referees in some unconscious way.
There’s been a multitude of more controversial incidents since that one, yet it’s still being highlighted.
There is a definite media narrative against United and it’s affecting the referees in some unconscious way.
Any link to this interview by any chance?
Our resident Sky hero G Neville keeping this one alive…
https://www.skysports.com/amp/footb...-var-and-manchester-derby-offside-controversy
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They were talking about Fabinho's and Carroll's tackles as well and Webb acknowledged that they should've been looked at. Some of you are desperate to make everything ABU.
I agree that sometimes the punishment does not fit the crime, and those moments will always feel unfair for someone. The problem is when the ref takes it upon himself to use that feeling of unfairness to alter the rules of the game to protect a narrative, like Anthony Taylor did against Arsenal. That was a perfect example on how refs shouldn't have the leeway of subjectivity, but rather be overruled by VAR with a firm consistent grip. The keeper pulled out of his action, yet took the player out without it being his intention. The situation would hugely favour Bruno, yet the keeper tried to avoid it. Harsh on the keeper, but objectively the attacker surprised the keeper and controlled the ball to a position he could have scored from. The keeper made a mistake of being late to the situation and that should be punished with a goal by the rules, yet wasn't because of the opinion or feeling that "the keeper shouldn't be punished that harshly".
I remember back where the conversation was that keepers was too protected and De Gea got manhandled and targeted in every other game and nothing was given. "There he go being weak again". We go on and loose those important points and it's never talked about again and the rules go back to normal. It's having the possibility of those narratives arriving that pokes major holes in the integrity of the game for me.
As for the situation with Weghorst, the defender's action was clearing the ball but failed doing that and kicked the player who got the ball. The fact he touched the ball doesn't matter as he didn't tackle him, he misjudged and failed the action to clear the ball.. If that was a tackle it would be a bad one and a clear foul. Stone wall penalty by the rules.
This is another one of my bugbears in refereeing. There are certain players who never get fouls and other who get them all the time. Poor old Dan James could be suplexed and the ref would assume he was just being weak. Harry Maguire only has to have a player within 6 foot of him for a referee to decide that he fouled them when he scores a header.
Mane was always one of the far better ones for staying on his feet in the box and he was repeatedly punished for it. Referees actively encourage diving and play-acting in the box because as long as you stay on your feet the ref will not give a penalty.
But despite that, and presumably him communicating those things to the referees, they still fail to intervene on the Weghorst situation where the defender absolutely blasts him in the leg. So what's the point in him admitting it and discussing those situations with his referees if it still doesn't lead to the desired outcomes?
I was not arguing that the refs are perfect but they are not crap only against United.
For me, one step is to publicly communicate the correct decision for all controversial situations after a gameweek (for example). Then they will quickly have set precedents that the refs and VAR can follow (I'm sure they already do this), while also making them more accountable for their decisions since it will be public as well. Now they almost always go into hiding and fans, pundits and maybe even players don't know if the decision was correct in the eyes of PGMOL or not.
Here we go again
Yay, soak it up boys and girls it’ll be discussed for the next 6 weeks and we won’t get another in that time
Most obvious handball ever.
Incredible that both the ref and his assistant missed it.
Incredible that both the ref and his assistant missed it.
Then no yellow on that tackle on Casemiro.
fecking idiot Casemiro.
Of course. Lets find red card for ManUtd or something else. Nothing strange. Every week. Every. tenHag needs to adress this refeering against us.
I don't understand why the ref's can't give a yellow in this situation, it was obviously very aggressive from Casemiro but then again it wasn't anything that was endargering Hughes a lot. A yellow is a warning to prevent any further such behavior in the match.
A question, was Schlupp's tackle more endangering to players safety of Casemiro grabbing Hughes' throat?
It's understandable that a red card was given, but that is considering how overall referees are told to punish such offenses. That I think should change.
A question, was Schlupp's tackle more endangering to players safety of Casemiro grabbing Hughes' throat?
It's understandable that a red card was given, but that is considering how overall referees are told to punish such offenses. That I think should change.
Grab him by the throat? Of course it'a a red card.What
Watch it real time he trying to pull your man off who was going buck mad
You can drag him away without grabbing him by the throat. Casemiro was stupid.What
Watch it real time he trying to pull your man off who was going buck mad
There probably wasn't much power behind the grab but it's a red card
Not a scooby how that “tackle” on Antony isn’t a red card. He’s out of play and has deliberately gone into him so he goes flying down the hill into the hoardings. Completely deliberate with no intention to play the ball based on the flick he did seconds earlier.
Casemiro's an idiot, but the use of VAR there is deliberately misleading. From the other angle, you can clearly see he actually has Hughes' jersey, but from the angle they showed Mariner, it looks like he's got his hand around his neck. Which he really didn't.
Of course it's on the player being an idiot, but can't convince me that VAR isn't out to give a red there.
Of course it's on the player being an idiot, but can't convince me that VAR isn't out to give a red there.
Really? when Var ran the attack by ayew on Fred numerous times cumulating in the push to the throat and ignored that ?
Clearest red card you’ll see all season. Goes and grabs an opposition player by the throat ffs. What was he expecting would happen?
Anyone arguing otherwise needs to take their red tinted specs off.
Anyone arguing otherwise needs to take their red tinted specs off.
Why "grabbing" someone from the throat or shouting is more dangerous than evil tackles?
I'm fecking sick of this shit. We're getting fecked by refs left and right this season. How is Case's case a red card while the Palace player that instigated the whole shit gets off scot free? Give me a break.
Cass must’ve saw Liverpool get away with three blatant red card challenges in 10 minutes and thought he’d get away with it too.
It's stupid by Casemiro but I'm not sure it's violent either, if the ref had given him a yellow and told him to stop acting the eejit I think that would have sufficed. That being said I thought the penalty we got was harsh on Palace so we can't have too many complaints in this game.
He was grabbing the shirt around the neck, not choking him.
Exactly this. VAR didn’t show the referee the whole context and all the angles. They cut it to show the worst angles and why they thought it was a red card. It’s once again bullshit use of the technology.
It's a clear red for Casemiro.
How the feck can you not think that's a red? He GRABBED him by the throat!!
He grabbed his shirt around the collar area.
He had his around around his neck. He wasn’t strangling him but that isn’t the point.
His hands shouldn’t have been anywhere near Hughes neck. Casemiro is 100% at fault and only has himself to blame.
His hands shouldn’t have been anywhere near Hughes neck. Casemiro is 100% at fault and only has himself to blame.
I think that Casemiro red is pathetic.
You would have had to look fecking hard to even spot anything wrong. If they looked at the full clip, they'd have seen there was nothing in it.
It was a straight red so hopefully it gets reviewed.
You would have had to look fecking hard to even spot anything wrong. If they looked at the full clip, they'd have seen there was nothing in it.
It was a straight red so hopefully it gets reviewed.