City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

[Strelok]

For instance if KDB was receiving wages of 200k on the books but in actuality his 'real' earnings was 400k, could he face charges for this?

Imo no if he pays the required taxes on that 400k.

 

[stevoc]

Well Chelsea and arsenal regularly do make the top 4 so yes, they would

Arsenal haven't finished in the top 4 in going on 7 years.

 

[Suv666]

For instance if KDB was receiving wages of 200k on the books but in actuality his 'real' earnings was 400k, could he face charges for this?

If they did they would have probably set up an entity that paid their share of taxes and so did KDB on the payments recieved.

The aim wasn't to save taxes but to ensure the payments can't be traced back to City

 

[jm99]

Arsenal haven't finished in the top 4 in going on 7 years.

Yeah fair enough I guess how well they performed this season made me forget how they weren't much better than us last year

 

[TheReligion]

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Worth a watch

The old ‘but the big bad historic clubs’ moaning that City and Chelsea fans like to trot out..

Superb!

 

[ThatsGreat]

What I find funny is that it took them 9 years to gather evidence, when the off the book dealings have been a open secret since the sheiks took over city.

 

[kidbob]

Thanks for the explanations guys!! A very interesting time to follow coming for sure.

 

[Red in STL]

depends What the players have been told. They might have been given extra payments and told it was sponsorship or bonuses. I doubt they have access to the books to see if what they’ve been paid is being declared.

Still taxable income, if they reported it as income then they're OK, if they didn't they're liable, if they did report it then they've made the case for City cooking the books

 

[kidbob]

If they did they would have probably set up an entity that paid their share of taxes and so did KDB on the payments recieved.

The aim wasn't to save taxes but to ensure the payments can't be traced back to City

Yeah that makes the most sense. I thought they'd have a way to protect the receiver in those instances . Thanks!

 

[Strelok]

 

[stevoc]

So the PL are pissed off at City's spending. But then invite another state to take over another team. Genius.

Well the rumour is Boris leaned on them to allow it as before that they clearly weren't keen.

 

[Ted Lasso]

What I find funny is that it took them 9 years to gather evidence, when the off the book dealings have been a open secret since the sheiks took over city.

Watch the Bernie Madoff documentary. Apparently when you're wealthy enough it makes all the investigators patently stupid until the water has boiled over.

 

[NicolaSacco]

To be honest its purely speculation on my part. Just thinking that the level of financial crimes levelled at City could potentially point towards players and management receiving under the table payments. So my real curiousity is could the players, for example, face an investigation into whether they wre aware of what was happening? I'm not saying Pep or the players did but more that surely if City are found guilty then it raises questions of the involvement or knowledge of the players and staff of what was happening.

For instance if KDB was receiving wages of 200k on the books but in actuality his 'real' earnings was 400k, could he face charges for this?

I don't know if that type of stuff happened but if it did then surely the players could face trouble too?

In the KdB example, I’d assume he would face charges if there were tax issues; I’m not sure he would if it was a case of City not reporting their wage bill to the PL correctly; he couldn’t reasonably be expected to know what other players were on in order to make that calculation.

 

[crossy1686]

I hope there's so much pressure on the PL to act that they have absolutely no option but to relegate them down to non league.

 

[crossy1686]

So how many City players jump ship in the summer and go abroad before they get slapped with a ban/fine or suspension?

 

[MegadrivePerson]

what happens to the league as its stands this season if city are expunged?

Its very unlikely anything will happen this season sadly. I can see this dragging on for years!

 

[Dolf]

So when can we expect an update?

 

[NicolaSacco]

What their few thousand bitter, bewildered fans fail to realise is that FFP is designed so that no team can gain an unfair advantage over another. These rules aren't exclusive to football, we see variations of them in other sports, such as Formula 1 or Rugby.

When they say "we are being treated unfairly", what they mean is "we want to behave unfairly and we're not being allowed"

That’s not quite true. The big clubs influenced FFP in order to make it impossible for them to be matched financially. By all means have a go at City but let’s be honest about the big clubs motives here.

 

[Judas]

So how many City players jump ship in the summer and go abroad before they get slapped with a ban/fine or suspension?

Not as many as we’d hope is my guess. Still feels a little way off. But if this momentum continues like this, and Pep goes in the next few months, all bets are off. If that domino falls, exodus begins.

 

[Red the Bear]

They might not remove from being relegated to the bottom of the pyramid, say what you want about juve but they had the pedigree that meant they'd get back to the top no matter what demonstrated by how how so many of their players choose to remain with them, I doubt city could hold on to a single decent player of theirs if they're sent packing down.

 

[crossy1686]

What do you think is happening at City HQ? My money's on frantically shredding multiple documents and trying to hide offshore accounts while forging as much documentation as possible.

 

[Drainy]

How is the reputational cleansing going?

 

[crossy1686]

Not as many as we’d hope is my guess. Still feels a little way off. But if this momentum continues like this, and Pep goes in the next few months, all bets are off. If that domino falls, exodus begins.

Not sure, if I thought there was a chance City would get relegated in a season or so and I could face criminal charges, no matter how slim, I'd be gone before the window shut in August. I'm not waiting to find out what happens, feck that.

 

[Member 125398]

What do you think is happening at City HQ? My money's on frantically shredding multiple documents and trying to hide offshore accounts while forging as much documentation as possible.

One would assume the PL has all the evidence necessary to prove the charges. The onus would be on City to provide an argument that refutes them.

 

[crossy1686]

They tried to sign him 12 months before we did. If I remember it was between they and Chelsea.
Shows how close a move was

If only they would have got him

 

[NinjaZombie]

I have to wonder how the best city players feel about this. They are some of the best talents in the game and now their achievements are forever under a cloud. You might say it won’t bother them but I sort of feel at some level it must. Will they find it as easy to sign new top talent in the future, probably not. I also struggle to buy that Pep was unaware of all this….

On the punishment I can go either way on the stripping of titles.

Some dismiss the impact of a fine but a fine could be very material if it is on the club and tightly boxed in so the owners can’t just bail it out, if it is say all the dodgy money plus interest and penalties and all spend plus income for next 10 years is audited in real time by premier league/fa to ensure no future dodgyness that could really hit hard.

The precedent for relegating clubs and points deductions is very strong, also if penalties for breaking financial fair play are softer than those for clubs going into administration or otherwise running out of money etc. that is completely unfair and you have completely broken signals.

It's been an open secret for years that Citeh have been cooking the books and engaging in financial shithousery to gain an advantage on the rest of the league. I seriously doubt players themselves don't have any inkling of what's going on.

In fact I won't be surprised if certain players were paid off the books in addition to their regular paychecks. While Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and ourselves have had to put up with rumours and/or actually losing our players to the likes of Real Madrid, PSG and Barcelona, the likes of David Silva, Aguero and Kompany were rarely mentioned in any transfer rumors linking them to other clubs in their prime.

 

[crossy1686]

One would assume the PL has all the evidence necessary to prove the charges. The onus would be on City to provide an argument that refutes them.

It seems their defence is "prove it" instead of proving they haven't

 

[Longshanks]

What I find funny is that it took them 9 years to gather evidence, when the off the book dealings have been a open secret since the sheiks took over city.

Open secret but no hard evidence and no witnesses willing to testify.

And with it being city and the financial and legal power they hold I would imagine the authorities want an absolute watertight case. Hopefully with the time they have taken to investigate and put this case together they are able the make some of the allegations stick.

 

[Chief123]

I'm not suggesting that there is. I kind of suggest that there might be. It would be interesting to see what would happen if investigators took a dive into all clubs books in the same timeframe.

I think I've made it clear that it is irrelevant in terms of the punishment we should get when/if these charges in turn gets proven right. But it was more a comment on the significance of the number of charges. It is obviously extremely high in isolasion, but from a curious perspective it would be interesting to see how every other club would fare given the same treatment. The majority might be clean as a fiddle for all I know.

I'm sorry that it came across a bit "look at everyone Else, they surely must be cheating too" but I didn't intend that at all.

I think the problem lies with the sheer scale Man City have been doing it and with so much defiance as well. The mere fact they are reporting the highest revenues compared to the biggest clubs in the world illustrates the scale of the doping.

It’s not to say other clubs are squeaky clean. But I’d be surprised if any other club has breaches anywhere near this extent. It’s like lots of people in the country dodge tax here and there. But it’s the ones who do it on a large scale are the ones the tax man is interested in.

The impact of City’s financial creativity has had huge significance throughout the whole league.

 

[romufc]

What I find funny is that it took them 9 years to gather evidence, when the off the book dealings have been a open secret since the sheiks took over city.

Is it? So I guess you have evidence of this off the book dealings that you can hand over to the PL to make all this easy?

 

[Tincanalley]

When I saw the news yesterday, the first thought much like others was that it was just going to be a slap on the wrist.

Looking at the charges and the developments over the past 24 hrs, it looks very serious. I think the fact this got so much attention means that PL do have to make a big call on this and cannot try to sweep it under the rug.

Also, even if city ending up with a fine or minor points deduction would mean that the charges are true and all their "success" is tainted which confirms what everyone knew already

City will be asked a whole set of questions by this new body. They have to cooperate. It’s apparent they are fecked on the disclosure front. So….
I have been looking at other examples. There are lots of precedents if found guilty. Swindon. Sheffield Wed. Derby. The magnitude of what’s being alleged surely pales these into insignificance. If shown to have committed the money doping offences, City have distorted the market and massively damaged the credibility of the whole set up. They have (allegedly) stole six league titles. It’s hard to even get your head around. You must be looking at
- Massive fines, plus
- significant points deduction over serial seasons, stretching into the future. That would relegate them by default, perhaps more than once.
- Restrictions on transfers
- Potential Deregistrations of anyone illegally recruited.

The effect of the above will probably see the end of UAE involvement, and the club getting a complete re-set. The only sanction I think seems unlikely is
- Liquidation of club, and banning from the league.
However that has happened to smaller clubs for much smaller infractions in the past. Could it happen here?

 

[Rooney in Paris]

No it's not and I'll cheer if it all implodes. But there's also nothing romantic about top clubs using their influence to put rules in place that ensure that no other clubs can close the gap to them. Which they did with FFP, which they did with the UCL reform and which they attempted with the ESL. They definitely have no moral high ground either.

I mean you say this and present it as fact because it's been peddled for years by cynics who want to appear as being "in the know" when it comes to football, but it's actually not why FFP was passed, and it was supported by hundreds of clubs because it made sense from a sustainability perspective, and for the good of the football pyramid in general. That it was beneficial to already established clubs who happen to be well ran is true (though considering the mockery the nouveaux riches have made of it, even that claim is massively disputable), but that doesn't actually negate its positives nor the actual philosophy at the core of it.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Why are many posters so confident that some kind of action will happen? Is PL or independent body a pious organization immune to money bags?

 

[Zehner]

What their few thousand bitter, bewildered fans fail to realise is that FFP is designed so that no team can gain an unfair advantage over another. These rules aren't exclusive to football, we see variations of them in other sports, such as Formula 1 or Rugby.

When they say "we are being treated unfairly", what they mean is "we want to behave unfairly and we're not being allowed"

Depends on how you define "fair". In my view, FFP is anything but fair. In fact, I'd say it's closer to a legal cartel.

 

[eire-red]

It's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. The PL will be under enormous pressure from both what sounds like an army of legal representatives for City and Abu Dhabi.

Haven't they also invested hugely in Manchester itself? I think Gary Neville has made this point to show how the Glazers have been leeches and brought nothing in comparison. Will there be huge political pressure if this threatens future and current planned investment?

On the other side, it seems like the entire footballing world is against City and wants them dumped from football at a maximum, and clearly heavy sanctions at a miminum.

I think whatever way this goes, we're going to witness a watershed moment for football. If this gets swept away it could usher in a new era for football, while we could kind of see the opposite happen if the book is thrown at City like it seems could actually happen now that the severity of this is sinking in. Would it be like a reset button for football? What would it do to future investment and the attractiveness of the PL as a brand to owners with deep pockets?

Not portraying any opinion here, or suggesting arguments for or against. It's just intriguing to consider all of the facets to this. If the rumours of a leak are true, or maybe it is someone willing to testify on record about their pay arrangements, and if the time barred technicality and legality of how the documents were leaked are irrelevant, it's hard to see how City aren't dead to rights here.

The logical side of you would assume that the PL knew how massive the reaction was going to be to this, and they must have the stomach to follow through with this if they've already gone this far?

 

[Zehner]

I mean you say this and present it as fact because it's been peddled for years by cynics who want to appear as being "in the know" when it comes to football, but it's actually not why FFP was passed, and it was supported by hundreds of clubs because it made sense from a sustainability perspective, and for the good of the football pyramid in general. That it was beneficial to already established clubs who happen to be well ran is true (though considering the mockery the nouveaux riches have made of it, even that claim is massively disputable), but that doesn't actually negate its positives nor the actual philosophy at the core of it.

Then what good does it do for smaller clubs? It essentially only limits the speed with which they can grow. It's like saying "we don't trust you to run your business yourself so we put rules in place you have to abide to for your own protection".

This is absolutely unthinkable in any other market. Imagine startups only being allowed to spend what they earn, we'd probably still be stuck with analog photography, cell phones and horses.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Depends on how you define "fair". In my view, FFP is anything but fair. In fact, I'd say it's closer to a legal cartel.

Oh stop spouting nonsense will you. That's just a ridiculous statement.

 

[Tincanalley]

If they broke the rules, they should be punished. But to be honest, I find it very hard to judge them for this since FFP is a farce and was only put in place to ensure that those who are at the top remain at the top. It's a shitty rule made by shitty people sold as something great and romantic to the fans. Good for top clubs, bad for small clubs. feck FFP.

It’s not FFP. That’s only a small part of it. It’s fraud and cheating.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Then what good does it do for smaller clubs? It essentially only limits the speed with which they can grow. It's like saying "we don't trust you to run your business yourself so we put rules in place you have to abide to for your own protection".

This is absolutely unthinkable in any other market. Imagine startups only being allowed to spend what they earn, we'd probably still be stuck with analog photography, cell phones and horses.

Your second paragraph is so stupid I won't even respond to it.

With regards to the 1st one - yes! To grow organically, within their means, and not to face the scenarios we've seen time and time again in football where they've been too greedy and ambitious, ruin the clubs, feck off, and leave entire communities in disarray.

 

[Member 125398]

It seems their defence is "prove it" instead of proving they haven't

It does seem so. I don't think the PL would have made the charges without the necessary evidence. The failing to cooperate with an investigation charges are seemingly irrefutable if City have failed to provide requested information.