Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[Zehner]

No it isn't. You say removing penalty goals highlights Ronaldo's lack of contirbuiton, now even if I agreed with that (which I don't, the painting of him as an inzaghi type forward is only reflective of his second spell here and maybe some of his time at juventus) there are hundreds of other metrics that could highlight that, assists, key passes, dribbles, that would be more reflective of an all round game, so why would removing penalties from his goals be used to show a lack of an all round game when you have other stats that would be far more useful to determine this.

When you're talking specifically about goalscoring, to include penalties for one player and not another, is just about the beat example of hypocrisy you could find

Nobody painting Cristiano as an Inzaghi type forward here. But since 2012/13 or so he has drastically reduced his involvement and is almost exclusively a final third or even box player. That's simply a fact, nothing agenda driven and pointing that out doesn't mean you liken him to Inzaghi.

Why do you think people spoke of non penalty goals? To highlight Messi's superior contribution from open play in comparison to Cristiano's. What would be the point of bringing that up in the context of the world cup? To prove that Messi didn't contribute from open play? Well, that's proven wrong in a heartbeat. It is just redundant. Not everything revolves around Cristiano, you know.

It is as if we had a discussion about which car was better, yours or mine, and then I say 'I prefer mine because it has four doors and yours only two'. Then one year later we walk fown a street, see a Ferrarri and say 'damn, that car is a dream of mine' and you go 'you fecking hypocrite, suddenly two doors aren't that bad, right?!'

 

[jm99]

Nobody painting Cristiano as an Inzaghi type forward here. But since 2012/13 or so he has drastically reduced his involvement and is almost exclusively a final third or even box player. That's simply a fact, nothing agenda driven and pointing that out doesn't mean you liken him to Inzaghi.

Why do you think people spoke of non penalty goals? To highlight Messi's superior contribution from open play in comparison to Cristiano's. What would be the point of bringing that up in the context of the world cup? To prove that Messi didn't contribute from open play? Well, that's proven wrong in a heartbeat. It is just redundant. Not everything revolves around Cristiano, you know.

It is as if we had a discussion about which car was better, yours or mine, and then I say 'I prefer mine because it has four doors and yours only two'. Then one year later we walk fown a street, see a Ferrarri and say 'damn, that car is a dream of mine' and you go 'you fecking hypocrite, suddenly two doors aren't that bad, right?!'

No it would to be paint Messi as the best goalscorer at the world cup, which he wasnt really.

To use your example, it would be like if I said my car was faster, but you said well let's not count acceleration in your car's speed because mine is more comfortable with better air conditioning.

Then later included acceleration when comparing your car's speed to another. It's a bad example but you chose the shitty metaphor not me

 

[mshnsh]

Ronaldo's penalties make up 18% of his total. Messi's make up 13.5% of his. That's not a massive difference in how much of a portion of goals he contributes.

See thus is what I mean by facts being misrepresented

Did you read my whole post?

 

[jm99]

Did you read my whole post?

Yes I did, how do the other aspects of messi's game mean that penalties account for a huge portion of ronaldo's goals but not messi's

 

[DJ Jeff]

All this talk while Messi is clearly better player and always has been.

Even from 06-08 injuries were the only things stopping this being obvious.

 

[Joel Miller]

Why are people still so unbelievably bothered by Messi winning awards? He just won the WC with a slew of iconic performances.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen @jm99 contribute anything of value to these discussions; it’s all the same stuff you usually see in the social media gutter. Someone comparing him to Son and Kane is a new low though

 

[Swoobs]

You would thought that after Sporting and Cal retired, it will be peaceful, but no a new bunch of PR reps have arrived (although I did see the same old “forum moral policeman” still only posting against any CR7 critics)

 

[Gazza]

Why are people still so unbelievably bothered by Messi winning awards? He just won the WC with a slew of iconic performances.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen @jm99 contribute anything of value to these discussions; it’s all the same stuff you usually see in the social media gutter. Someone comparing him to performances from Son and Kane is a low though

Yeah I must say, I lose brain cells reading some of the posts in here. And I have precious few to begin with.

 

[RacingClub]

Yeah I must say, I lose brain cells reading some of the posts in here. And I have precious few to begin with.

You scroll through their posts on this Topic and it's literally nothing but negativity.

When Messi was going through a bad patch last season or when he misses a pen/ gets knocked out of a cup they are posting regularly to criticize him but when he's performing well they don't have the moral courage to post and give credit where it's due.

It's pathetic really.

 

[Partridge]

Why are people still so unbelievably bothered by Messi winning awards? He just won the WC with a slew of iconic performances.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen @jm99 contribute anything of value to these discussions; it’s all the same stuff you usually see in the social media gutter. Someone comparing him to Son and Kane is a new low though

A better comparison would be Emile Heskey...only the man Messi could have been.

 

[mshnsh]

Yes I did, how do the other aspects of messi's game mean that penalties account for a huge portion of ronaldo's goals but not messi's

Because many a times, that can be his only contribution during a game. With Messi, the penalty will likely be the icing on a cake type of thing.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ah yeah right because arguing he is winning awards that he does not deserve is "hating him".
Got it. Sure make sense.
We're just going to lie and pretend Messi has been the best footballer from August 2021 to December 2022 I guess and ignore how he wasn't even fit to lace Son's or Mane's boots for close to 13 months out of 16

Messi from the beginning of 2022 to now was levels and levels above those 2 and that's not even a prime Messi.

 

[Andrade]

Southgate might get a bottom half job, I can't imagine a single top 6 fan would want Southgate as replacement when their current manager leaves. England are a better international side than we are at club level, they're top 5 in the world arguably but we're not, if anyone had suggested Southgate taking over in the summer, there would have been fury on here.

It should be obvious why top managers wouldn't want to take international jobs, less time spent with the players, no ability to transfer in players that fit your style, chances of a trophy only come up every couple of years, far less pay than the top club jobs offer.

The bolivia example, again is not meant to refer specifically to international football. If United played a Bolivian team in Bolivia we'd struggle massively, that doesn't make it a higher standard of football. Likewise top players struggling to replicate club form at international level because they have worse managers, less cohesive team etc. Also doesn't make it a higher standard of football. Both international football vs club level, and Bolivia vs other countries have factors that make it more difficult to play, but in neither case does it make the more difficult place to play the higher standard. Playing on a waterlogged pitch can make it very difficult to produce your best form, no one would suggest that playing in bad conditions is the peak standard of football either

You said Premier League job. Now you've changed it to top 6 job. So you made a statement that you know is inaccurate. And in any case, Southgate got the job because of the dearth of English candidates at ta time the FA wanted to pick an English guy and he had knowledge of the set up from managing at junior levels. The vast majority of his predecesors were extremely experienced guys.

Everything you said about managers wanting international jobs is nonsense. Again, HANSI FLICK, ROBERTO MANCINI, LUIS ENRIQUE, all top managers who accepted the great honour of managing their own countries. Usually you have to have succeeded at club level to even get one of these top international jobs.

The Bolivia thing is a dumb argument, I'm sorry. What difficult comdiitons does an Mbappe, a Ronaldo or a Benzema play in that means they can't score as much? They play in Europe and not only that, they play against dozens of poor teams against which they can fill their boots. If you don't know the reason why there is a difference, simply admit that rather than pushing this narrative that doesn't apply to most of the people I listed.

 

[Andrade]

Also look at the difference in rashford when he's playing under solskjaer or rangnick compared to ten hag, he's scoring a lot more goals. Messi wasn't great at 2010 world cup, you're going to say having a useless manager didn't impact that. It's crazy to dismiss the importance of managers when we're seeing the difference it makes first hand this season

Marcus Rashford is a guy who would not even have been called world class until possibly this season. Moreover, he scored goals under other managers, maybe not as many but he's closer to his peak now and has had a period without injury. The only time he didn't score at all is when he had that long period of injury which coinciided also with the presence of Ronaldo in the team and wheb he's there other players don't score as much. Just ask Bruno and Benz.

Messi had 6 goals in 19 games at the WC before 2022. The reason for that is not the managers, who were all very succesful in non Argentina jobs apart from Maradona.

I gave you a list of some of the greatest strikers of all time who were operating in the 21st century who scored goals at club level under a variety of managers and most of whom had very good managers at international level as well. Again, if you don't know the reason, please stop pushing narratives that make no sense.

 

[Ish]

Yeah, I can't wait for a few weeks time, this shitty standard of club football will be over, and we can watch the gold standard where Germany take on Peru, it'll be fecking class.

Seriously, I'm astonished anyone in 2023 is trying to argue international football is the highest level, most people consider the qualifiers or friendlies during the season as pointless distractions from club football, and liked watching the tournaments because they only happen every few years, but the idea it's the highest level is ludicrous.

We bought maguire off of a good world cup, funny that the 90m defender who was good at a world cup isn't actually of that high a standard. Madrid bough Rodriguez off the back of a good world cup, but it seems like despite playing well at your so called gold standard he couldn't displace Ronaldo, Bale or benzema, none of whom had ever finished as top goalscorers at the highest level of football.

Has buying a player based on a good world cup ever been a good decision?

That's your opinion. Ask any footballer what the pinnacle of the game is, and i'd guess the majority would say....it would be lifting the WC for their country.

You need to take a little breather and stop trying to downplay what Messi achieved.

 

[Gehrman]

That's your opinion. Ask any footballer what the pinnacle of the game is, and i'd guess the majority would say....it would be lifting the WC for their country.

You need to take a little breather and stop trying to downplay what Messi achieved.

I think in terms of prestige it is the pinnacle. However in terms of quality of football im not sure it is. However Messi didnt win the WC with a stacked team. Argentina´s squad isnt awful, but Id argue that apart from the guy we have at United there isnt many we would want at United(apart from Messi). It wasnt a underdog tale but it was jammy as hell.

 

[Andrade]

Of course its hypocritical if you use non penalty goals as the metric until it isn't favourable for your favourite players, that's a textbook definition of hypocrisy.

It would prove he wasn't the best goalscorer at the world cup, he just happened to play in the team awarded the most penalties I suppose, that if di Maria had taken those penalties instead, it probably wouldn't have made that much difference.

How much do you have to contribute before your penalty goals count, Ronaldo has the assets record for the champions league, but that isn't enough obviously. It's a fairly arbitrary criteria, that some players penalties count towards their goalscoring abilities and some don't.

That's why it's hypocritical, because otherwise you're taking an arbitrary point based on which players you like and saying let's use two different metrics

He had 5 Man of the Match awards. How many players have had 5 Man of the Match awards at a World Cup? Did you watch the games or are you just looking at the stats?

 

[Ish]

I think in terms of prestige it is the pinnacle. However in terms of quality of football im not sure it is. However Messi didnt win the WC with a stacked team. Argentina´s squad isnt awful, but Id argue that apart from the guy we have at United there isnt many we would want at United(apart from Messi). It wasnt a underdog tale but it was jammy as hell.

That's the point though - it's the prestige. It is the pinnacle in terms of achievement. You can buy a super club but you can't buy a national team. They barely train/play together and the tournament is held only once every 4 years. So "downplaying" Messi winning a WC by criticising the standard of international competition is a bit extreme. It was one hell of an achievement - even outside of the goals he scored, his performance plus his leadership (which was so often criticised), at 35 years old, was amazing.

Winning a UCL does not trump that in my opinion.

Also, the landscape of club football is so skewed that every year, outside of an anomaly, there's usually only a handful of "super clubs" vying for Europes biggest trophy. but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Messi from the beginning of 2022 to now was levels and levels above those 2 and that's not even a prime Messi.

He was terrible from January to May 2022 while Mane was on a very good form and Son won a golden boot.
And it's a good thing the award runs from AUGUST 2021 to December 2022 and not just the calendar year 2022

 

[Andrade]

That's the point though - it's the prestige. It is the pinnacle in terms of achievement. You can buy a super club but you can't buy a national team. They barely train/play together and the tournament is held only once every 4 years. So "downplaying" Messi winning a WC by criticising the standard of international competition is a bit extreme. It was one hell of an achievement - even outside of the goals he scored, his performance plus his leadership (which was so often criticised), at 35 years old, was amazing.

Winning a UCL does not trump that in my opinion.

Also, the landscape of club football is so skewed that every year, outside of an anomaly, there's usually only a handful of "super clubs" vying for Europes biggest trophy. but that's a discussion for another thread.

Cesc Fabregas a couple of years ago on Twitter put out the question to his followers: what would you rather win in a football career - one World Cup or three Champions Leagues? IIRC, most people said the World Cup.

 

[jm99]

You said Premier League job. Now you've changed it to top 6 job. So you made a statement that you know is inaccurate. And in any case, Southgate got the job because of the dearth of English candidates at ta time the FA wanted to pick an English guy and he had knowledge of the set up from managing at junior levels. The vast majority of his predecesors were extremely experienced guys.

Everything you said about managers wanting international jobs is nonsense. Again, HANSI FLICK, ROBERTO MANCINI, LUIS ENRIQUE, all top managers who accepted the great honour of managing their own countries. Usually you have to have succeeded at club level to even get one of these top international jobs.

The Bolivia thing is a dumb argument, I'm sorry. What difficult comdiitons does an Mbappe, a Ronaldo or a Benzema play in that means they can't score as much? They play in Europe and not only that, they play against dozens of poor teams against which they can fill their boots. If you don't know the reason why there is a difference, simply admit that rather than pushing this narrative that doesn't apply to most of the people I listed.

How are you still missing the Bolivia point, I'm using it as a comparison, playing in Bolivia is harder because of factors that have nothing to do with the level of football. Playing in international football can be harder because of factors that have nothing to do with football. We could create a new tournament where players had to play on a waterlogged pitch every game and I can guarantee the top strikers would score less than at regular football. Could I then go, this tournament must be the best because people scoring for fun, can't manage a goal here? That's not how it works, if the players were facing harder teams you could say its a higher level, but things like generally playing under worse managers (no, not every single one, but Deschamps and Southgate manage two of the best international sides and wouldn't get near a CL club management job, playing in teams that you barely get a chance to train with, these things don't make it a higher level of football

 

[jm99]

He had 5 Man of the Match awards. How many players have had 5 Man of the Match awards at a World Cup? Did you watch the games or are you just looking at the stats?

But what does that have to do with including penalties in his goal total? For years when comparing goalscoring records and nothing else, in direct discussions about their goal records Messi fans have normally used non penalty goals to make the comparison. Now when comparing messi's goal record and not the other aspects of the game, they want to include penalties.

Changing which metric you use to suit your narrative has nothing to with the players all round games

 

[jm99]

That's your opinion. Ask any footballer what the pinnacle of the game is, and i'd guess the majority would say....it would be lifting the WC for their country.

You need to take a little breather and stop trying to downplay what Messi achieved.

It's not the highest level of football though clearly. It's a prestigious tournament because it only happens every 4 years and player usually only get 2-3 chances at it in their career. That doesn't make the level of football better

 

[Zehner]

But what does that have to do with including penalties in his goal total? For years when comparing goalscoring records and nothing else, in direct discussions about their goal records Messi fans have normally used non penalty goals to make the comparison. Now when comparing messi's goal record and not the other aspects of the game, they want to include penalties.

Changing which metric you use to suit your narrative has nothing to with the players all round games

If you were a musician you'd be playing in the Cantina band

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

He was terrible from January to May 2022 while Mane was on a very good form and Son won a golden boot.
And it's a good thing the award runs from AUGUST 2021 to December 2022 and not just the calendar year 2022

He wasn't terrible at all. Someone like Ronaldo this season was terrible.

He just wasn't living up to the ridiculously high standards Messi has set.

Son is someone who's been terrible the entire season and Mane hasn't been great for Bayern. Neither starred in the WC(1 missed it entirely) and Messi was the best player in the WC while being incredible since the summer of 2022.

He was miles and miles ahead of both of them in any timeframe for the award.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It's not the highest level of football though clearly. It's a prestigious tournament because it only happens every 4 years and player usually only get 2-3 chances at it in their career. That doesn't make the level of football better

It's the pinnacle of the sport.

And Messi has been miles better than Ronaldo at the WC.

 

[jm99]

It's the pinnacle of the sport.

And Messi has been miles better than Ronaldo at the WC.

Not debating that part but it's definitely not the pinnacle of the sport, 4 of the 7 games Messi played were against Saudi Arabia, Poland, Mexico and Australia, I can't imagine considering those 4 teams anything close to the pinnacle of the sport

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

If you were a musician you'd be playing in the Cantina band

He's trying to equate Messi's pens with Ronaldo's pens while completely missing the point.

Take away goals from both of them, and it's obvious who the far better player is.

He's also trying to invent a narrative where every single Messi fan was downplaying Ronaldo's penalties. Penalties aren't free goals. You still have to score them and anyone who tries to downplay penalties are silly. But that's not even the point.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Not debating that part but it's definitely not the pinnacle of the sport, 4 of the 7 games Messi played were against Saudi Arabia, Poland, Mexico and Australia, I can't imagine considering those 4 teams anything close to the pinnacle of the sport

It is the pinnacle of the sport.

It's not even arguable.

It's the competition that provides the most pressure and it being every 4 years makes it more special.

Any footballer's dream is to win the world cup. It's not to win the champions league.

 

[jm99]

It is the pinnacle of the sport.

It's not even arguable.

It's the competition that provides the most pressure and it being every 4 years makes it more special.

Any footballer's dream is to win the world cup. It's not to win the champions league.

It's not the pinnacle in terms of the quality of football. You can make arguments about prestige or whatever that's all subjective, unless you're born in 1 of about 6 or 7 countries you have basically zero chance of winning it

 

[tenpoless]

Can he play the Weghorst role?

 

[Gehrman]

jm99 is the new bebestation.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It's not the pinnacle in terms of the quality of football. You can make arguments about prestige or whatever that's all subjective, unless you're born in 1 of about 6 or 7 countries you have basically zero chance of winning it

Quality of football is irrelevant.

A footballer dreams about winning the world cup. They don't dream about winning the champions league.

 

[jm99]

He's trying to equate Messi's pens with Ronaldo's pens while completely missing the point.

Take away goals from both of them, and it's obvious who the far better player is.

He's also trying to invent a narrative where every single Messi fan was downplaying Ronaldo's penalties. Penalties aren't free goals. You still have to score them and anyone who tries to downplay penalties are silly. But that's not even the point.

Someone saying Messi was top goalscorer at this world cup as argument and not mentioning 60% of his goals were penalties but who did that for a lot of the last decade are clearly hypocrites. If you want to discuss the impact of his all round game, then do that, but the idea that Messi scoring penalties is better than any other player scoring them because of his all round game is crazy. They're two separate things. You want to mention his man of the match performances or all round game then do that but don't pretend that his penalties count more because of his all round game

 

[jm99]

Quality of football is irrelevant.

A footballer dreams about winning the world cup. They don't dream about winning the champions league.

It's a little bit relevant if you're discussing who deserves an award for the best player of the year, I think the quality of football is actually very relevant in that discussion

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Someone saying Messi was top goalscorer at this world cup as argument and not mentioning 60% of his goals were penalties but who did that for a lot of the last decade are clearly hypocrites. If you want to discuss the impact of his all round game, then do that, but the idea that Messi scoring penalties is better than any other player scoring them because of his all round game is crazy. They're two separate things. You want to mention his man of the match performances or all round game then do that but don't pretend that his penalties count more because of his all round game

No one here has even done that. You're just inventing things.

Him scoring penalties + being highly influential disregarding the pens is the main point people are making in this thread and it's going over your head.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It's a little bit relevant if you're discussing who deserves an award for the best player of the year, I think the quality of football is actually very relevant in that discussion

Yeah again, the world cup holds more weight than league or CL games. People will weigh those performances higher.

You can keep trying to downplay the world cup, but you're coming off incredibly silly.

If Ronaldo won the WC, I highly doubt you'd be singing this tune.

 

[Gehrman]

That's the point though - it's the prestige. It is the pinnacle in terms of achievement. You can buy a super club but you can't buy a national team. They barely train/play together and the tournament is held only once every 4 years. So "downplaying" Messi winning a WC by criticising the standard of international competition is a bit extreme. It was one hell of an achievement - even outside of the goals he scored, his performance plus his leadership (which was so often criticised), at 35 years old, was amazing.

Winning a UCL does not trump that in my opinion.

Also, the landscape of club football is so skewed that every year, outside of an anomaly, there's usually only a handful of "super clubs" vying for Europes biggest trophy. but that's a discussion for another thread.

For the individual player it depends on the manner you win it and the team you win it with. But yeah I dont think you and I disagree much tbh. The landscape of the WC is also skewed towards whatever nations have the strongest squads. Underdogs sometimes make it far, but they almost never win it. Croatia being a case in point recently. Marocco making the semi final was special.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

jm99 is the new bebestation.

He's honestly embarrassing himself in this thread.

I would have thought the Ronaldo fans would give up trying to prop him up/downplay Messi after his disastrous last few months, but they're unrelenting.

 

[jm99]

jm99 is the new bebestation.

I'm not even trying to make it about Messi vs Ronaldo. It's about the hypocrisy of fans. I'm not sure I remember so many of the Messi fans arguing the WC was the best measure of a player before this world cup, most of them had Messi as the GOAT and said subpar WC performances were irrelevant when you've played like he has at club level (and I agree with that, his performances at club leve are good enough to warrant that title, or be in the discussion), it's amazing how many of them that had Messi as the goat without a good WC performance, now believe that WC performance is the single best indicator of a players ability.

I guess we should hold onto Harry maguire, who cares if he's been shit at club level, he played well against some no marks in the world cup, the true highest level, definitely worth 90m