I think it was absolutely clear that we were talking for the season they shared.
We signed Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo that summer, it was supposed to be glorious.
Ole when sacked vs Ten Hag currently
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
We signed Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo that summer, it was supposed to be glorious.
This matter is only made worse by us no longer being a preferred destination for top players in their early prime.
We have signed maybe 2 players post Fergie who fit this description in Pogba and Sancho. We all know how that went...
I agree 100%
We were at our best I would argue Mourinho’s second season for the first half anyways. Only time we’ve ever had a title challenge of sorts post Fergie for at least half the season.
Ole’s caretaker reign as well was pretty fantastic. That’s it post Fergie. Rest has been awful.
Doesn’t help like someone stated above the best talents just aren’t moving here at 22-23. It’s pretty rough to get the players needed at the club to win the biggest trophies these days.
They tend to join City, Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern before us.
None of those had ever relegated a Premier League club and got sacked by them the following season...
Most of them hadn't relegated anyone because most of them hadn't even managed a professional club.
Correct, that is slightly different to someone who has already failed though isn't it?
Only at United would a manager lose 7-0 and 6-3 to their greatest rivals and still be defended and it’s not like he has achieved anything great at the club yet. I can understand Accrington Stanley celebrating a league cup like never before but the fans of self proclaimed world’s biggest club talking about it like it some achievement is so small time. Our standards are at all time low.
We need to stick with ten Hag just to move past the romanticising of Ole's tenure.
Ultimately, we have to give someone a few seasons to action change. Ole was arguably the closest we've ever been to doing that.
For all the talk of a cultural reboot over those three years; only now are we starting to see someone attempt to fix the issue root and stem.
There are numerous parallels that can be made with ten Hag and other top four managers, most notably Arteta and Klopp. Arteta for the time he needed to reset Arsenal and Klopp for the managing of injuries after an unprecedented busy schedule pushing his players to their physical limits.
Ultimately, we have to give someone a few seasons to action change. Ole was arguably the closest we've ever been to doing that.
For all the talk of a cultural reboot over those three years; only now are we starting to see someone attempt to fix the issue root and stem.
There are numerous parallels that can be made with ten Hag and other top four managers, most notably Arteta and Klopp. Arteta for the time he needed to reset Arsenal and Klopp for the managing of injuries after an unprecedented busy schedule pushing his players to their physical limits.
I’d add Ole’s second season up to Pogba’s injury in late jan/early feb. We were in the title race that year when we thrashed 9 past S’oton. We fell off and dropped some cheap points after Pogba got injured and then we got fecked with the fixtures after the protests with 4 games in a week or something ridiculous. I think Rashford and Maguire were both also playing with injuries.
If anything his CL record is concerning. The team he was handed made it to the semifinal, while the teams he built got knocked out of the group twice and lost to Benfica at the earliest possible point the one time they made it out of the group.
No manager who gets a lesser team like modern day Ajax to a CL semifinal (seconds away from a final) has a “concerning” record in that competition. But that’s an aside. The main point is his record shits all over Ole’s before taking the job at United. And these are the records we’re comparing.
Who would you play at LB?
I don't think everyone agreed on the Ronaldo being a glorious signing. It was always going to be the disaster signing it turned out to be.
Lindelof or DVB, maybe (Play Casemiro/Maguire as CD for Lindelof). I admit it was more than a little kneejerky...
Our current list of injured defender is making things difficult for us at the moment.
The majority of us wanted exactly ETH to get the job, to be fair.
Now let's just hope he can turn it around and that we can see some signs of his ideas shining through our performances on the pitch. So far this season we have one good and a couple of decent performances between a lot of horrible performances and the Sancho mess on top of that. Which is why this and the other ETH-threads are hot at the moment. The doubts are justified, but he should get the chance to make it right.
The teams he built?
He reached a semifinal in the CL 22 months after he took over the club, and yes he was lucky with some of the players he inherited (like FDJ, MDJ etc.), but Ajax is a selling club and there was 0% chance he would keep their best players after the fluke season they had in the 18/19.
They sold players for 475M Euro and bought players for 218M Euro while he was there. Not easy to replicate deep runs in the CL working like that.
Are we really arguing about whether or not Ten Hag has a better resume than Ole? The answer should be obvious. The Eredivisie is much better than Eliteserien and Ten Hag's performances with Ajax in Europe were impressive.
I think you realise how the options you suggest are far worse. Maybe Dalot left and Lindelöf right could work but that would leave us with zero defenders on the bench.
Also, Donny as LB? Wut?
I do not quite agree. Not all of those cases are the same, but if any of them had had getting relegated with Cardiff on their CV, they would not have been hired.
Klopp got relegated with Mainz.
First of all, Klopp's record at Mainz encompassed a few years of massive success along with that relegation (including getting them promoted in the first place), and second, Klopp after Mainz was not hired by Bayern, Liverpool, or Manchester United for that matter, but by a broke and struggling Dortmund.
So that comparison does not work the way you are trying to employ it.
True, but he'd proven himself with an intermediate club in the meantime. I don't think Liverpool would have hired him if his only Bundesliga experience had been his time with Mainz.
The problem with Ole was he already hit his ceiling.
You could've given Olen and Murtough 1bil and they still wouldn't won EL final.
You could've given Olen and Murtough 1bil and they still wouldn't won EL final.
Results will always dictate how long a head coach/manager stays in the job. But we also have to take into consideration the team ten Hag inherited from the previous two managers. And that team was not suited to playing a more proactive brand of football where it's a requirement to have the technical ability in possession against the opponent's press, physical and athletic ability to defend larger spaces which would then allow the team to press from the front more effectively. Solskjær in his first summer transfer window made two massive mistakes after saying he wanted to play a high line like Jurgen in a press conference.
And after signing both Maguire and Wan Bissaka he created a problem for himself where Wan Bissaka was weak going forward and Maguire had a problem in confined spaces and wasnt strong at defending large spaces in defensive transition. And then on top of that he was happy to go along with Lindelof and De Gea. He'd locked himself in by signing players who just weren't suited to a more expansive game style. And if any manager or head coach makes big mistakes at CB and fullback when signing players for a high-line method, then you're in trouble and the fallback option is always a lower block method. IMO it would've been more beneficial if Solskjaer had targeted different profile of players and looked to remove De Gea from the team. But Solskjaer's mistakes benefited De Gea who could then just carry on with his shot stopping which had a detrimental effect on the development of a play style which was never going to take effect with players like Maguire, Lindelof, AWB and De Gea. Wan Bissaka can be utilised in defensive transition and he's very good at stopping opponent's in that way. But he's not a fullback that can elevate the team in a higher defensive line in possession.
Solskjaer then signs Bruno Fernandes, which again doesn't make a lot of sense due to the composition of the midfield that already existed at the club. Pogba had huge potential in possession but wasn't very good at all out of possession. So imo it would've been better to sign a deeper lying midfielder who either had high passing volume or a midfielder who could contain and manage a large space. But instead he tried to shunt Pogba into a deeper lying midfield position which contributed towards unbalancing the midfield.
But his biggest mistake was to come and that was the signing of Sancho. And Sancho wasn't a mistake because he was a bad player but rather we were said to be looking for a right winger and Sancho was never a right winger and myself and a few others argued this in the transfer forum at the time. Sancho arrives and plays on the left with Journos asking Solskjaer why he wasn't utilised on the right. Solskjaer's responds by saying Jadon prefers playing on the left. We can blame Woodward for a lot of things but he didn't force Solskjaer to spend a combined £150m on a CB and fullback that weren't suited to a more expansive game higher up the pitch. He also didn't force him to sign Sancho when it was reported that the players were asking Solskjaer to sign Grealish but Solskjaer wanted Sancho instead only to play him on the left.
Then he decided to sign Ronaldo after it was reported that his coaching staff advised him against signing Ronaldo due to his deficiencies out of possession. Solskjaer admitted that he made a mistake in signing Ronaldo. And that was Another mistake which ten Hag had to deal with.
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Every club makes mistakes when signing players. But the previous two managers signed players that were were far away from being ideal for a play style that is currently dominating the top end of the EPL. And there's no such thing as a best in class DoF imo, all you have to do is sign players that fit into a particular playstyle. And just to give you a example, the DoF at City was someone who was good friends with Joan Laporta at Barcelona hence he got the DoF's role without ever having the experience in such a role. At every single club the recruitment should be led by the head scouts whilst being backed up by analysts in different sectors. At Liverpool it was Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows, at Man City it's Gary Worthington and currently at Brighton it's Sam Jewell who is the Son of former Wigan manager Paul Jewell. It's not difficult at all to sign the correct profile of player for any selected playstyle. That player or players could still fail to live upto his/their potential, but the player has to tick certain boxes as far as technical ability and physical/athletic ability is concerned imo.
And regarding ten Hag, he still has the CB, RB, holding midfielder and versatile forward positions that are still there to improve upon. And from what we know, Jose Mayorga and Simon Wells are now in-charge of recruitment and identified Hojlund as the striker signing to make. And the Hojlund signing took me by surprise because I didn't see that coming. It was a out of the box signing and a signing I really like. So I can see them doing something similar again next summer.
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I think we could get the players to win the biggest trophies. Obviously the likes of Mbappe and Bellingham are not coming here but they never did. Players like Salah, KdB, Gundogan, VVD and Stones could all have been signed by us instead of Liverpool and City. The club is just terrible at finding them. In 10 years, Bruno is the only successful signing. Zlatan is a maybe and Martinez could be very good but currently Bruno is the only definite success. We have the budget but not the judgement.
And I agree with Jose. He was being ridiculous when he said that was his greatest achievement but he did pretty well that season and would have gotten more credit if he wasn't competing against Peps Frankenstien of a club.
Ole didn't "relegate" Cardiff. They were a disaster that was going down anyway. At worst he failed to save them, a big difference. You're basically giving Arteta and Pep credit for never having to take rubbish jobs.
Mourinho signs Bailly and Lindelof via his Portuguese connections who were both flawed players in central defence for different reasons.
In midfield he signs Pogba and Fred. I can understand signing Pogba but Fred was never good enough for the price he cost. And Pogba just didn't have the out of possession game which Mourinho demands but had the height and build which Mourinho does like.
In forward positions he signed Zlatan, Lukaku and Mkhitaryan. And eventhough Zlatan did well briefly and Mkhitaryan contributed in cup competitions, the only long term signing here with any pedigree was Lukaku who I admit I was never a big fan of. But he was a good EPL striker.
So after wasting huge amounts of money and even alienating Javier Ribalta (Chief Scout) who left us shortly after taking up his role as the head of recruitment in 2017. Mourinho then went to war with Bout and Lawlor because they'd vetoed his other signings like Maguire, Alderwereild, Boateng, Perisic and Matic. Woodward would allow him to sign Matic but all the aforementioned players he wanted were vetoed by the head scouts. And then he made the claim about 2nd being his best achievement because people didn't know what was going on behind the scenes. But what actually was going on behind the scenes would later be revealed and Mourinho was doing untold damage when it came to recruitment and alienating the heads of recruitment. Ribalta was someone who had a lot of experience in recruitment at Juventus and had ran their recruitment for several years before joining United. But he left United after a year because Mourinho wasn't complying and he was intelligent enough to know that his work wasn't going to be utilised under Mourinho who was a manager with a reactive style of play. And I said at the time that the Liverpool team that finished two places below us in 4th looked more likely to challenge Man City in the near future. Because Mourinho's football was dated and you can only play reactive football for so long before the more dominant playstyles engulf you.
With the players Mourinho wanted, he was never going to challenge Man City who were making the most obvious signings that any competent football club should make if both the head coach and heads of recruitment are working in tandem. The problem has never been that the manager is leading recruitment but rather the manager was being allowed to lead recruitment without him working in tandem with the heads of recruitment. Once you have the people leading the recruitment (not a DoF) the head coach should work with them and not against them by having independent scouts.
In midfield he signs Pogba and Fred. I can understand signing Pogba but Fred was never good enough for the price he cost. And Pogba just didn't have the out of possession game which Mourinho demands but had the height and build which Mourinho does like.
In forward positions he signed Zlatan, Lukaku and Mkhitaryan. And eventhough Zlatan did well briefly and Mkhitaryan contributed in cup competitions, the only long term signing here with any pedigree was Lukaku who I admit I was never a big fan of. But he was a good EPL striker.
So after wasting huge amounts of money and even alienating Javier Ribalta (Chief Scout) who left us shortly after taking up his role as the head of recruitment in 2017. Mourinho then went to war with Bout and Lawlor because they'd vetoed his other signings like Maguire, Alderwereild, Boateng, Perisic and Matic. Woodward would allow him to sign Matic but all the aforementioned players he wanted were vetoed by the head scouts. And then he made the claim about 2nd being his best achievement because people didn't know what was going on behind the scenes. But what actually was going on behind the scenes would later be revealed and Mourinho was doing untold damage when it came to recruitment and alienating the heads of recruitment. Ribalta was someone who had a lot of experience in recruitment at Juventus and had ran their recruitment for several years before joining United. But he left United after a year because Mourinho wasn't complying and he was intelligent enough to know that his work wasn't going to be utilised under Mourinho who was a manager with a reactive style of play. And I said at the time that the Liverpool team that finished two places below us in 4th looked more likely to challenge Man City in the near future. Because Mourinho's football was dated and you can only play reactive football for so long before the more dominant playstyles engulf you.
With the players Mourinho wanted, he was never going to challenge Man City who were making the most obvious signings that any competent football club should make if both the head coach and heads of recruitment are working in tandem. The problem has never been that the manager is leading recruitment but rather the manager was being allowed to lead recruitment without him working in tandem with the heads of recruitment. Once you have the people leading the recruitment (not a DoF) the head coach should work with them and not against them by having independent scouts.
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Thanks for sharing this and I largely agree with your assessment. I do however wonder why we signed Casemiro though. He is not a high-volume passer and while he can adequately defend large spaces in transition, I don't think that's his defining attribute. Do you think that he is not an ETH signing? If yes, why do we play him all the time (are all the other options worse than him in that regard?). And more importantly, how do we become more compact in defensive transitions? Is it time to keep Case out of the starting line-up for a while and use Hannibal / Amrabat a lot more?
I am also curious to hear about your views on the build-up structure being used currently. With the Onana signing, I was expecting a lot more structure in our build-up from the back. But the speed of build-up seems extremely slow and Onana is launching a lot more long balls than I expected him to. With Amrabat being eased into the team, do you expect the build-up phase structure to change?
OK, let me rephrase that, Cardiff were going down anyway, and then he managed to make them even worse. Is that any better?!
I'm not giving Pep and Arteta anything - I'm saying that taking a punt on a young intelligent guy who hasn't managed at the level before is different to giving a job to someone already about a decade into their career who has already managed unsuccessfully in English football. One is taking a punt on someone with no track record who has shown signs that they could be incredible, the other is taking a punt on somebody that has a mediocre track record and hoping that they will somehow become incredible.
We were desperate for a couple of midfielders that summer and we skimped on squad balance to fund the superstar signing. I remember pulling my hair out at the time.
Not everyone gets parachuted into a top job from the start. Postecoglu was a bad appointment by your reasoning because he didn't qualify with Australian youth teams.
hang on, are you saying that Ole was a good appointment?!
He inherited a team that we expected to - or actually demanded to - fight for the title. Since then he has signed Eriksen, Casemiro, Antony, Martinez, Onana, Høilund, Mount, Evans + Reguilon and Amrabat on load. Add Garnacho to the mix, and you have a whole new starting 11. He can use injuries as an excuse, nothing else.
We did? That team came just out of a historical bad season. I was hoping for top 4 but certainly not expecting it last season.
I think if we had signed de Jong last season instead of Casemiro, we wouldn't have made top 4. Because what happened during 2016 to 2022, under Mourinho and then Solskjaer was going to dictate how a potential rebuild was going to develop under ten Hag. And the pressure to make top 4 meant it was sensible to bring Casemiro into a team that was best suited to playing in transition against the best possession teams who were also very adept at defending from the front via a coordinated pressing and counter pressing strategy.
And when you have a goalkeeper like De Gea who is no where near good enough on the ball to bait or resist the opponent's high pressure tactics, then it's a good ploy to go direct and circumvent the opponent's press. In that scenario you would need your players to be strong in physical duels to win the the ball back. And Frenkie de Jong would've been required to do more work out of possession hence Casemiro was a better fit for a team that went direct and played in a compact lower block because his aerial, physical and defensive game was needed in a compact lower block. That play style suited several other players in the team. I don't believe Ten Hag realised how bad De Gea actually was in possession, and if we wanted to develop ourselves and challenge the top coaches who have developed teams to play a more proactive brand of football, then the GK had to go. You either look to develop the team by attempting to make the necessary changes or you stand still. And we were standing still for many years.
I think ten Hag has the profiles in midfield now to play through the thirds. Amrabat and Mainoo are the two players who have the skillset to receive the ball in confined spaces. Mainoo is still very young but I have no doubt ten Hag would've played him numerous times if he didn't get injured. EtH is someone who has said many times about only selecting young players in the team if he knows they can contribute. Casemiro is still important for us because he brings physicality and aerial ability to the midfield. But he isn't someone who is particularly good at playing the game in confined spaces and neither does he have the athletism to control a larger space in defensive transition. Casemiro was a necessary step/springboard towards developing a team that was heavily reliant on transitions against quality opposition. I think phase two is getting Amrabat, Mainoo and even Eriksen to click together.
I think if we add 4 players to what we already have. Then we'll go a long way towards being a very competitive team. But it's important we sign players who not only raise the technical level in the team but also raise the physical and athletic level in the team where defensive transitions are controlled/contained in larger spaces in a team that wants to play the game in the opponent's half.
I agree ! however we need a lot of changes in and out of the dressing room
No, he was a bad one. But appointing him if he had less experience would also have been a bad one.
When people are going hysterical because we managed to narrowly beat Brentford at home, thanks to the magical combination of Harry maguire and Scott McTominay, then I can only come to the conclusion that there isn't a great deal of difference between Solskjaer and Ten Hag, and the latter is following a similar trajectory in terms of poor performances, results, and eventually - later this season - his sacking
We were never in a title race. Just top of the table for a week or two before falling away especially after Ole made some negative remark about winning trophies, something like trophies are for egos or something like that
Again, thanks for that explanation. Casemiro then sounds like a short-term fix in the sense that if we want to play through the thirds, his role is going to be extremely limited going forward. Which then begs the question that spending close to 60M for qualifying for the CL for one season is a sound investment or not. It is a weird one - for all of the signings under ETH so far, I can sort of see the logic (overpaying for them is not something that I'd put on ETH) except for Casemiro who is the kind of signing we have been making for a while (short-termist, big name, huge outlay).
Assuming that Casemiro's role is going to be limited going forward, I then feel that the team is going to lack physicality in defensive transitions. Being more compact will help for sure but teams will soon start peppering us with long balls to test our physicality to which we won't have the required answers. I fear for ETH consequently in this scenario. If we continue to lose games over the next few weeks, I am not sure if the leadership (and definitely not the fanbase) will have the patience to see the transformation through.