Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Mike Smalling]

Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.

Laughable. It's purely for show, so that people are fooled into thinking that Israel is somehow more humane.

Israel is currently in the process of inflicting as much terror and misery (if not more), as Hamas did with their attack.

 

[Drifter]

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[Denis79]

To be honest they're at the point of no return long time ago.

A movement to pacifism will be the same can down the road. The Gazans might welcome it at start but once they're strong it'll be a different demand.

And no matter what there will always be a few nutters who wants nothing but total annihilation of the other on both sides.

It's a quagmire of mess

The problem is that are so many that feel this way and many these people sit in positions of power on both sides.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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What I find curious is the unwavering support Israel had, is now bleeding away (which a lot of commentators who were tarnished with not supporting Israel said would happen) due to their inability to control themselves.

As Crispin Blunt put it, Israel has gotten a soft ride globally on its human rights abuses and behaviour in Gaza for some time.

Now the world is seeing it all under a microscope, in real time and it's neigh on impossible to defend outside of the most pro Israel position.

I think the realisation that this the reality and it's not "defending themselves" but enactment of war crimes is dawning on the global community.

I am sure a lot of the usual media commentators will claim this is the west abandoning the Jewish community again but this will be seen through.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Germany keeps embarrassing itself…

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Isn't Olaf the Russian lover who keeps buying Russian gas?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The Palestinian health ministry said 54 people, including children, had been killed with more than 1,100 injured in the West Bank since Hamas’s attack. Monitoring groups said the dead included minors shot in the head, chest or abdomen with live rounds.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-bank-residents-fear-rising-tide-of-violence

A lot of posts in this thread about Hamas being a death **** that wants to destroy Israel. Meanwhile, nary a peep about these people:

The Israeli human rights organisation B’Tselem circulated footage of a settler in the village of At-Tuwani, to the south of Hebron, shoving a Palestinian man before shooting him at point blank range as the man dropped to his knees, with an Israel Defence Forces (IDF) soldier standing nearby.

When hundreds of Israeli settlers rampaged through Huwara and surrounding Palestinian towns in the occupied West Bank on February 26, leaving at least one Palestinian man dead and hundreds of others injured, it was billed as “revenge” after a Palestinian gunman killed two brothers who lived nearby. What unfolded was violence so brutal that the Israeli military commander for the West Bank called it a “pogrom" [...] In the aftermath of the violence, Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, a settler who opposes Palestinian sovereignty, said that “Huwara needs to be erased.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/15/middleeast/huwara-west-bank-settler-attack-cmd-intl/index.html

A Jewish settler was found guilty of racially motivated murder by an Israeli court on Monday in a 2015 arson attack that killed a Palestinian couple and their baby in the occupied West Bank. Israeli prosecutors said Ben-Uliel firebombed the Dawabsheh family home and another dwelling in Duma village after spray-painting “Revenge” and “Long Live King Messiah” on their walls.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-duma-verdict-idUSKBN22U0L5

The Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court on Thursday sentenced five men to community service for participating in the so-called 2015 “hate wedding” during which revelers were filmed mocking the victim of a Jewish terror attack in which members of a Palestinian family were burned alive. In the footage, wedding guests were seen waving guns, knives and a mock Molotov cocktail as a song about biblical vengeance blasted in the background. One of the attendees had printed a picture of 18-month-old terror victim Ali Dawabsha, waving it in the air and stabbing it with a knife as attendees danced furiously.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/parti...edding-avoid-jail-time-get-community-service/

In video filmed outside trial of Jewish settlers accused of perpetrating Duma arson attack, youth heard shouting at Hussein Dawabsheh 'Ali was burned, where is Ali? Ali is on the grill' in reference to slain 18-month-old baby, adding 'It's too bad Ahmed didn't burn as well' in reference to Ali's brother.
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5292359,00.html

An Israeli court has handed down a life sentence to the ringleader of a Jewish gang that kidnapped, beat and burned alive a Palestinian teenager in 2014. [...] They had tried to kidnap a child in east Jerusalem the previous day, but were thwarted by the child’s mother.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ed-palestinian-mohammed-abu-khdeir-given-life

An Israeli settler suspected of involvement in the killing of a 19-year-old Palestinian man in the West Bank last week was released from detention on Wednesday and transferred to house arrest, a Jerusalem court said. The Israeli judge said there was insufficient evidence to extend the detention of the radical Jewish settler, Elisha Yared. The killing of Matan near the West Bank city of Ramallah enraged Palestinians and drew condemnation from human rights groups and foreign diplomats. In a rare statement, the United States Office for Palestinian Affairs denounced the killing of Matan as a “terrorist attack” — a phrase typically reserved for Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians — and urged “full accountability and justice.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...ir-netanyahu-f59bad22ce74ca2ea99ebc5ce54e727b

Looks like a death **** to me.

 

[Sweet Square]

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Spoiler

 

[dinostar77]

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What I find curious is the unwavering support Israel had, is now bleeding away (which a lot of commentators who were tarnished with not supporting Israel said would happen) due to their inability to control themselves.

As Crispin Blunt put it, Israel has gotten a soft ride globally on its human rights abuses and behaviour in Gaza for some time.

Now the world is seeing it all under a microscope, in real time and it's neigh on impossible to defend outside of the most pro Israel position.

I think the realisation that this the reality and it's not "defending themselves" but enactment of war crimes is dawning on the global community.

I am sure a lot of the usual media commentators will claim this is the west abandoning the Jewish community again but this will be seen through.

I do wonder how much mobile phones and social media are contributing. Go back to the first gulf war for example, we had to rely on reporting from news agencies and inetenational charities. Now footage can be uploaded to social media in minutes so its impossible to control the narritive and spin the stories in a way benefiting your own country and aims.

 

[Mike Smalling]

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What I find curious is the unwavering support Israel had, is now bleeding away (which a lot of commentators who were tarnished with not supporting Israel said would happen) due to their inability to control themselves.

As Crispin Blunt put it, Israel has gotten a soft ride globally on its human rights abuses and behaviour in Gaza for some time.

Now the world is seeing it all under a microscope, in real time and it's neigh on impossible to defend outside of the most pro Israel position.

I think the realisation that this the reality and it's not "defending themselves" but enactment of war crimes is dawning on the global community.

I am sure a lot of the usual media commentators will claim this is the west abandoning the Jewish community again but this will be seen through.

I hope you are right, but where is the evidence for this? From what I see, the actual people in power are still firmly entrenched in the "Israel is allowed to defend itself" camp. Seems to me like politicians ranging from the far right to the center left haven't moved an inch on this. The more balanced takes and condemnation of Israel is found mostly among leftwing politicians not in power and of course online.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Thats so upsetting. How many more children are going to be killed in this conflict?

At least allow the children to leave gaza with their parents (if they are still alive).

Probably a few thousand

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I hope you are right, but where is the evidence for this? From what I see, the actual people in power are still firmly entrenched in the "Israel is allowed to defend itself" camp. Seems to me like politicians ranging from the far right to the center left haven't moved an inch on this. The more balanced takes and condemnation of Israel is found mostly among leftwing politicians not in power and of course online.

Just seeing sentiment shift slightly on mainstream media.

 

[That_Bloke]

A lot of posts in this thread about Hamas being a death **** that wants to destroy Israel. Meanwhile, nary a peep about these people:

It stems from a tweet posted here from a right-wing whackjob who actually compared islam to a death ****, not the Hamas. One particular poster must have found the expression really cool because since then, they practically never posted anything about the Hamas without referring it to being a death ****. Word gets around.

The Hamas is many, many things, a lot of them reaaaally bad.

A death ****, however, it is not.

 

[dinostar77]

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Wow, if this is true, any civilian within 1.5 miles of the blast would be vapourised. Staying put where the bombs will drop is not an option. As a civilian you have to leave and get far enough away.

 

[Giggsyking]

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What I find curious is the unwavering support Israel had, is now bleeding away (which a lot of commentators who were tarnished with not supporting Israel said would happen) due to their inability to control themselves.

As Crispin Blunt put it, Israel has gotten a soft ride globally on its human rights abuses and behaviour in Gaza for some time.

Now the world is seeing it all under a microscope, in real time and it's neigh on impossible to defend outside of the most pro Israel position.

I think the realisation that this the reality and it's not "defending themselves" but enactment of war crimes is dawning on the global community.

I am sure a lot of the usual media commentators will claim this is the west abandoning the Jewish community again but this will be seen through.

There is a word missing in the tweet. Search for it to find out how biased western media is even for one "unbiased" like bbc. It is disgusting the amount of bias. British media is one of the worst, most biased media in the world.

In the building up for the iraqi invasion the UK media was Blair's back in giving legitimacy to their invasion that caused the death and suffering of millions.

 

[space]

This is genocide, free Palestine

 

[Mike Smalling]

There is a word missing in the tweet. Search for it to find out how biased western media is even for one "unbiased" like bbc. It is disgusting the amount of bias. British media is one of the worst, most biased media in the world.

In the building up for the iraqi invasion the UK media was Blair's back in giving legitimacy to their invasion that caused the death and suffering of millions.

Didn't even notice that at first, but "a strike" is indeed nice and vague.

 

[Giggsyking]

Didn't even notice that at first, but "a strike" is indeed nice and vague.

Off course people will not notice, its journalistic manipulation that has been used for decades, small playing with words, like reporting side A murdered, but side B lost their lives.

It is intentional and it boils the heart.

 

[the hea]

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I have no idea what this is about but JDAM is not a bomb, it's a gps based guidance kit that can be used with a numbre of unguided ammunitions.

 

[RoadTrip]

Why are humans so vile? Like, honestly. Look at the extent of civilian suffering. Today, yesterday, last week, and for the many years gone by. No one with a heart can’t be moved by this stuff. It’s one thing creating the propoganda machine to legitimise this stuff, but it’s another to be the person who actually OKs it in reality.

I wish all citizens of Palestine and Israel safety, but I wish the most torturous and painful death to Hamas and the Israeli government.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.

I find it truly astonishing that people actually believe this.

Unless we're using the word "measures" in the very loosest sense of the word.

 

[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

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[Ekkie Thump]

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This is the angle the Haaretz editorial was taking earlier: An Israel-Hamas Prisoner Exchange Now

Sources in the region, including in Hamas, have said the organization is willing to negotiate over a swap of Israeli women and children in exchange for Palestinian women and children imprisoned in Israel. Israel’s official response was presented by Culture Minister Miki Zohar, who said, “There will be no negotiations with this terrorist organization.” But that principle has already been violated repeatedly in the past, and Israel agreed to “pay” by releasing thousands of prisoners in exchange for a single soldier, some bodies and civilians.

Hadas Calderon of Kibbutz Nir Oz, who was saved from the massacre but had five members of her family, including her children, kidnapped by Hamas, begged for her children’s lives Monday night on Channel 12 television, in a chilling monologue that ought to reverberate throughout the world. “I appeal to you, to the world, to the politicians,” she said. “Get moving, get them out of this game. They don’t belong there. They are pure souls, angels, innocent children.” And then, with tears flowing, she added, “We won’t be able to hold on. I appeal to the mother’s womb.” We must not wait, tarry or delay. Every passing second puts their relatives’ lives and sanity in danger. A prisoner exchange now

I'm not particularly hopeful, but maybe this might gain some traction.

 

[11101]

I find it truly astonishing that people actually believe this.

Unless we're using the word "measures" in the very loosest sense of the word.

Their measures were to tell people to leave. No doubt now they will feel they have given fair warning before flattening Gaza City, and in the eyes of international law they probably have.

The thing is there is no way to do urban combat in an environment like that without taking severe casualties. Not arguing the rights or wrongs here but from a tactical point of view they need to turn it to rubble first and clear out any civilians so they can loosen the rules of engagement.

 

[Pintu]

Their measures were to tell people to leave. No doubt now they will feel they have given fair warning before flattening Gaza City, and in the eyes of international law they probably have.

The thing is there is no way to do urban combat in an environment like that without taking severe casualties. Not arguing the rights or wrongs here but from a tactical point of view they need to turn it to rubble first and clear out any civilians so they can loosen the rules of engagement.

No, unless they open a safe passage to a safe zone and guarantee the future return to those who wish to, they haven’t... Ethnic cleansing is not compatible with international law, and collective punishment (no food, no water, no electricity, no medicine) is not either.

 

[11101]

No, unless they open a safe passage to a safe zone and guarantee the future return to those who wish to, they haven’t... Ethnic cleansing is not compatible with international law, and collective punishment (no food, no water, no electricity, no medicine) is not either.

Well they gave them two routes to an area they are not attacking and said they will be notified when they can return. So yeah, they have done what is likely enough to keep them out of trouble.

The talk of ethnic cleansing is just that so far, talk. They haven't started the attack yet. Let's see what actually happens first shall we?

 

[Denis79]

Their measures were to tell people to leave. No doubt now they will feel they have given fair warning before flattening Gaza City, and in the eyes of international law they probably have.

The thing is there is no way to do urban combat in an environment like that without taking severe casualties. Not arguing the rights or wrongs here but from a tactical point of view they need to turn it to rubble first and clear out any civilians so they can loosen the rules of engagement.

There are ways to achieve this without the total destruction of Gaza but that costs a lot of money and takes alot of time. Sadly I believe one of the main objectives of Israel is revenge, so they have no interest in that.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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The desperation of people spreading lies about being targeted is really grim. Why lean into conspiracy and untruths? What's the goal here?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Their measures were to tell people to leave. No doubt now they will feel they have given fair warning before flattening Gaza City, and in the eyes of international law they probably have.

The thing is there is no way to do urban combat in an environment like that without taking severe casualties. Not arguing the rights or wrongs here but from a tactical point of view they need to turn it to rubble first and clear out any civilians so they can loosen the rules of engagement.

A measure the UN described as impossible, and already has resulted in nearly 3000 deaths... Thus can't really be seen in any way as a reasonable "measure"

This coupled with how many thousands that have died over the last 10 yards... Makes me think the bloke that is responsible for ensuring fatalities are limited isn't really doing a cracking job.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Well they gave them two routes to an area they are not attacking and said they will be notified when they can return. So yeah, they have done what is likely enough to keep them out of trouble.

The talk of ethnic cleansing is just that so far, talk. They haven't started the attack yet. Let's see what actually happens first shall we?

Why have you responded to everything except the bit where they are denying food, water electricity and medicine? In a conversation where you are stating they aren't breaking international law? Seems an odd thing to overlook.

 

[11101]

A measure the UN described as impossible, and already has resulted in nearly 3000 deaths... Thus can't really be seen in any way as a reasonable "measure"

This coupled with how many thousands that have died over the last 10 yards... Makes me think the bloke that is responsible for ensuring fatalities are limited isn't really doing a cracking job.

Like I said I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs, I'm laying out that in Israel’s eyes they're ticking the boxes they're supposed to. Up to now you can almost guarantee they would not be done for any war crimes. What they do from here is anybody's guess.

 

[Superden]

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Are these not the very same tactics the nazis used

 

[The Corinthian]

@Pogue Mahone
I half agree with your point about the kill/die distinction not really being meaningful, but it is getting farcical in this case:

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And his own employer -

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Previously, when a Palestinian-American journalist was killed by an Israeli sniper, she got the same "protection" from her government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shireen_Abu_Akleh#Western_media_coverage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shireen_Abu_Akleh#International

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[hasanejaz88]

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[dinostar77]

Well they gave them two routes to an area they are not attacking and said they will be notified when they can return. So yeah, they have done what is likely enough to keep them out of trouble.

The talk of ethnic cleansing is just that so far, talk. They haven't started the attack yet. Let's see what actually happens first shall we?

They bombed a convoy of 70 women and children on one of those 'safe route'. So you cant trust what IDF says.

Why dont we go with what israel have done previously as an indicator of what they will probably do now? According to Amnesty International..

"..In June, Amnesty International published its investigation into the May 2023 offensive on the Gaza strip, finding that Israel had unlawfully destroyed Palestinian homes, often without military necessity in what amounts to a form of collective punishment against the civilian population.

In its February 2022 report, Amnesty International set out how Israeli forces have committed in Gaza (as well as in the West Bank and Israel) acts prohibited by the Statute of the International Criminal Court and the Apartheid Convention, as part of a widespread and systemic attack against the civilian population with the aim of maintaining a system of oppression and domination over Palestinians, thereby constituting the crime against humanity of apartheid..."

(but just like China with the Uyghers, where they have been swiping them out via ethnic cleasing, enslavement and forced castration of women, israel wouldnt face any war crimes or sanctions. They already have a long list of UN treaties* against them which they have broken, which will never be enforced).

*Laws Violated: Israel has violated 28 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council (which are legally binding on member-nations U.N. Charter, Article 25 (1945); a few sample resolutions - 54, 111, 233, 234, 236, 248, 250, 252, 256, 262, 267, 270, 280, 285, 298, 313, 316, 468, 476, etc.

 

[VorZakone]

They bombed a convoy of 70 women and children on one of those 'safe route'. So you cant trust what IDF says.

Why dont we go with what israel have done previously as an indicator of what they will probably do now? According to Amnesty International..

"..In June, Amnesty International published its investigation into the May 2023 offensive on the Gaza strip, finding that Israel had unlawfully destroyed Palestinian homes, often without military necessity in what amounts to a form of collective punishment against the civilian population.

In its February 2022 report, Amnesty International set out how Israeli forces have committed in Gaza (as well as in the West Bank and Israel) acts prohibited by the Statute of the International Criminal Court and the Apartheid Convention, as part of a widespread and systemic attack against the civilian population with the aim of maintaining a system of oppression and domination over Palestinians, thereby constituting the crime against humanity of apartheid..."

We don't have definitive evidence yet that Israel did that (the convoy bombing).

 

[Ekkie Thump]

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Here's the evidence the IDF have presented:

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I can't say I trust anything coming out of the IDF right now but I also don't think it's beyond Hamas' range to do stuff like this. Got to say that the explosion in particular seems a bit weird to me and to be honest I don't see what Israel has to gain from stopping the evacuation.

 

[Giggsyking]

Their measures were to tell people to leave. No doubt now they will feel they have given fair warning before flattening Gaza City, and in the eyes of international law they probably have.

The thing is there is no way to do urban combat in an environment like that without taking severe casualties. Not arguing the rights or wrongs here but from a tactical point of view they need to turn it to rubble first and clear out any civilians so they can loosen the rules of engagement.

You know absolutely nothing about international law.

 

[Giggsyking]

Well they gave them two routes to an area they are not attacking and said they will be notified when they can return. So yeah, they have done what is likely enough to keep them out of trouble.

The talk of ethnic cleansing is just that so far, talk. They haven't started the attack yet. Let's see what actually happens first shall we?

Yes about 1000 child died by themselves.