Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

[glazed]

I agree with you, and that's exactly why one shouldn't go on making blanket statements or fall for it. The general trend tries to make you pick a side. It's a false dichotomy, there is no side.

Unfortunately this is western thinking and neither side has much time for it on the ground. And while it is of course a blanket statement I made, it is also largely true. If we were able to impose western secular values on the two sides then there would not be a conflict in the first place.

Of course western secular values were responsible for the Holocaust as well as the colonial partition of the Middle East so perhaps we should be a little more self aware?

Ethnic cleansing is when those civilians aren't allowed back after the conflict, something Israel has a vast history of.

It seems fairly obvious that the Israeli game plan (in so much as they have one) is to force the Gazans into the south of the strip through violence and lack of water, then destroy Gaza City and leave the population with a choice of living in makeshift camps supported by aid via Egypt or become actual refugees. Whether they will be able to pull this off is another matter.

 

[the hea]

Ethnic cleansing is when those civilians aren't allowed back after the conflict, something Israel has a vast history of.

They definitely have done that and should be held accountable for it but that doesn't mean we should start calling the evacuation of civilians for ethnic cleansing and urge participants in any future conflict to ignore these priorities. An invasion of north Gaza is coming and the best thing right now would be to get as many civilians out of north Gaza as safe as possible.
This is where Europe, the US and all the Middle Eastern countries could make a huge difference because right now enough isn't done from any of those parties to provide the basic needs for the people of Gaza.

 

[gfactor86]

To go where though?

It's not like there's any better living conditions in the south. There's no shelter, no food, no water, nothing. Where are you going to sleep? How are you going to feed your family? What are you going to do with the elderlies, the physically disabled and the sick/wounded plugged to machines that keep them alive? Food, power, medical aid are still cut off. Water has been only partially turned on. The 20 trucks Israel allowed in, in a mighty gesture of good will after two weeks of hell while still the bombing the living crap out of the city, aren't going to change the absolute nightmare that Gaza is at the moment. The UN organizations ask for 2,000 trucks to alleviate the humanitarian crisis there.

I've read and seen many reports from humanitarian organizations there and you wouldn't believe how bad the situation is. There are dangers of cholera and other hygiene related diseases, about 65% of the children are suffering from diarrhea, the stench, the total absence of hygiene, people defecating on the streets and reduced to boil toilet or (polluted) sea water to have something to drink. Doctors forced to buy and use vinegar as a disinfectant. How they operate under the bombings. How some of the wounded need to be evacuated from there because there simply isn't anyway to treat them in Gaza in the current conditions but still stay there because no one can escape that living hell. And these courageous people aren't from Hamas.

And they're eventually going to be forced to leave the South at some point, when the IDF is finished with the North. What are they going to find there? Is there anything to go back to?

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

 

[JPRouve]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

Is that a running joke or people are that clueless about the topic?

 

[gfactor86]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

Israel is the only country to have ever offered a state to the Palestinians. On 5 occasions, each time it's rejected. The other Arabs nations. Notably Jordan and Egypt and just as culpable as Israel

 

[gfactor86]

Is that a running joke or people are that clueless about the topic?

What can be the basis of a negotiation if the other party is committed to your absolute destruction?

Israel cannot win here.If they drop their weapons then they will be destroyed.

 

[JPRouve]

What can be the basis of a negotiation if the other party is committed to your absolute destruction?

Israel cannot win here.If they drop their weapons then they will be destroyed.

Israel has no will to negotiate, the party they actually voted for and the extremist(Likud, a bunch of nationalist and religious nationalists) they elected have no will for negotiation and they also want to get rid of Palestine. But that's beside the point I made, current gazans didn't vote for Hamas, the last election was in 2006 and at least 76% of the current population have never voted in their lives.

 

[gfactor86]

Israel has no will to negotiate, the party they actually voted for and the extremist(Likud, a bunch of nationalist and religious nationalists) they elected have no will for negotiation and they also want to get rid of Palestine. But that's beside the point I made, current gazans didn't vote for Hamas, the last election was in 2006 and at least 76% of the current population have never voted in their lives.

In 2005 Israel unilaterally vacated Gaza and demolished its settlements to give Palestinians autonomy of their own land.

all they've had ever since is Hamas declaring the destruction of Israel and missile attacks.

if Hamas drops its weapons there would be peace. If Israel drops its weapons, there will be no more Israel

 

[Raoul]

srael has no will to negotiate, the party they actually voted for and the extremist(Likud, a bunch of nationalist and religious nationalists) they elected have no will for negotiation and they also want to get rid of Palestine. But that's beside the point I made, current gazans didn't vote for Hamas, the last election was in 2006 and at least 76% of the current population have never voted in their lives.

Nor do Hamas, which is why we are in this situation. The power dynamic between the two is disproportionately on the Israeli side, so any attempt by Hamas to do what they did two weeks ago could end result in bringing Israelis into a war mindset where they feel they have to once and for all get rid of Hamas.

 

[gfactor86]

If Hamas had the same weaponry that Israel has, they'd blow Israel off the map without a 2nd thought about civilian deaths.

 

[JPRouve]

In 2005 Israel unilaterally vacated Gaza and demolished its settlements to give Palestinians autonomy of their own land.

all they've had ever since is Hamas declaring the destruction of Israel and missile attacks.

if Hamas drops its weapons there would be peace. If Israel drops its weapons, there will be no more Israel

So you are going to side step everytime your claims are challenged?

If Israel wants to negotiate why haven't they negotiate with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank but instead promoted and protected settlers who kill and take lands on a weekly basis?

 

[gfactor86]

Most of the IDF defence budget is spent on the iron dome. This is a defensive system to protect itself from contact rocket attacks.

imagine the destruction and death toll on the Israeli side if they didn't have this

 

[JPRouve]

Nor do Hamas, which is why we are in this situation. The power dynamic between the two is disproportionately on the Israeli side, so any attempt by Hamas to do what they did two weeks ago could end result in bringing Israelis into a war mindset where they have to once and for all get rid of Hamas.

Hamas position is known and Hamas is considered by nearly everyone as a plague. Here I responded to someone who made a bogus point about Israel not Hamas.

 

[gfactor86]

So you are going to side step everytime your claims are challenged?

If Israel wants to negotiate why haven't they negotiate with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank but instead promoted and protected settlers who kill and take lands on a weekly basis?

Abbas is useless has he ever come to the table with anything reasonable? In any case he is powerless because Gaza/Hamas won't accept anything but a 1 state solution with no Jews "from river to the sea"

 

[JPRouve]

Abbas is useless has he ever come to the table with anything reasonable? In any case he is powerless because Gaza/Hamas won't accept anything but a 1 state solution with no Jews "from river to the sea"

So it's all palestinians? One side is reasonable and willing to negotiate while the palestinians aren't?

 

[Giggsyking]

Urging civilians to evacuate from a battlefield is not ethnic cleansing, it's abiding by the laws of war. It's when Israel forcefully moves civilians from their homes when it becomes ethnic cleansing. For example in Ukraine no one is calling the evacuation of civilians from Russian aggression for ethnic cleansing but when Russia is kidnapping thousands of children and moving them to Russia it is considered ethnic cleansing.

There is a lot we can criticize the IDF for but this is not one thing. The biggest priority for both IDF, Hamas or any other part in any war should always be the evacuation of civilians.

Did they let the 5m Palestinians return to their land. Who are you kidding? its like people forget that internet exist and you can search every fecking information.

 

[Raoul]

So it's all palestinians? One side is reasonable and willing to negotiate while the palestinians aren't?

Neither side are interested in negotiating, which is compounded by the fact that Palestinians are represented by two competing factions, neither of which speak for them as a whole.

 

[JPRouve]

Neither side are interested in negotiating, which is compounded by the fact that Palestinians are represented by two competing factions, neither of which speak for them as a whole.

I know that, I'm not the one you should tell that.

 

[That_Bloke]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

I have neither the time nor the patience to engage with people butting in a discussion with horseshit like this.

You're on ignore, mate.

 

[gfactor86]

I know that, I'm not the one you should tell that.

I agree. Nothing happens until both sides are represented by more moderate parties.

 

[gfactor86]

I have neither time nor patience to engage with people butting in a discussion with horseshit like this.

You're on ignore, mate.

ooh you're hard

 

[Carolina Red]

@gfactor86 - there’s no Hamas in the West Bank, yet Palestinians keep getting killed there. Why’s that?

 

[Giggsyking]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

disgusting post.

 

[JPRouve]

I agree. Nothing happens until both sides are represented by more moderate parties.

Then why did you try to paint a completely different picture? Instead of spreading misinformation, you could have just wrote this last post.

 

[flameinthesun]

Neither side are interested in negotiating, which is compounded by the fact that Palestinians are represented by two competing factions, neither of which speak for them as a whole.

I agree. I also think if Israel had any intention of actually working things out diplomatically or treating the Palestinians like humans they would have already done so in the west bank. For me as terrible as the situation in Gaza is, the situation in the west bank to me shows Israel's true intention, which is from the outside is pretty disgusting.

 

[gfactor86]

disgusting post.

how so?

They did vote for Hamas.

hamas wants Israel eradicated that's a FACT. It's in their charter.

Arab neighbours couldn't care less. Egypt shares a border with Gaza. They could take in refugees anytime but don't, because they don't want them and they are happy for it to be "Israel's problem"

thousands of Palestinians languishing in refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. Never been given full rights there or chance at making a life for themselves in those countries.

 

[the hea]

Did they let the 5m Palestinians return to their land. Who are you kidding? its like people forget that internet exist and you can search every fecking information.

So we should start calling the evacuation of civilians from the battlefield a crime against humanity? What effects do you think this will have in any future conflict?

 

[gfactor86]

@gfactor86 - there’s no Hamas in the West Bank, yet Palestinians keep getting killed there. Why’s that?

20% of the Israeli population are Arab. They have the same rights as everyone else. They can work, choose to be with men or women, they are even represented in the Knesset.

how many Jews live in Gaza?

 

[Carolina Red]

They did vote for Hamas.

In 2006. When over 70% of the current population was too young to vote or not even born.

This has been covered about a dozen times now in this thread.

 

[Carolina Red]

20% of the Israeli population are Arab. They have the same rights as everyone else. They can work, choose to be with men or women, they are even represented in the Knesset.

how many Jews live in Gaza?

Answer the question

Why do Israelis keep killing Palestinians in the West Bank?

 

[glazed]

People are very keen to rehearse the usual arguments but there's little focus on what's coming next. The analysts I speak to say that when Israel attacks on the ground, Hezbollah are likely to fire a huge number of far more sophisticated rockets into Israel. Israel will retaliate by blowing up Iran's nuclear facilities. And then we will be in a much bigger conflict. In the fog, the Gazans will end up getting ethnically cleansed.

 

[Raoul]

how so?

They did vote for Hamas.

hamas wants Israel eradicated that's a FACT. It's in their charter.

Arab neighbours couldn't care less. Egypt shares a border with Gaza. They could take in refugees anytime but don't, because they don't want them and they are happy for it to be "Israel's problem"

thousands of Palestinians languishing in refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. Never been given full rights there or chance at making a life for themselves in those countries.

I don’t think Hamas have held elections since they took over in 2006, which is before almost half of Gaza’s current population were born.

 

[That_Bloke]

Its obviously a tragic situation in that the invasion is almost certainly going to happen very soon, where the Israelis are clearly looking at invading the two northern most sections of Gaza (North Gaza and Gaza City) and fighting the initial phase of the war with Hamas there, then once secured, moving into the other areas. Therefore the people in the northern areas would have to move south or else risk dying. Its going to be a humanitarian disaster either way since there aren't enough resources to provide shelter/food/water/medicine/basic services to those that move. There are also people in the northern sections who for medical reasons, don't have the resources to move. The bottom line, we are going see unprecedented levels of death, destruction, and displacement in the coming weeks and months unless the international community can find a way to temporarily move the civilians from Gaza to a safe space outside the strip until the fighting stops. There are however no easy solutions that are also realistic given that neither the Israelis nor Hamas are going to back down.

I agree with you about everything in your comment, particularly your last sentence. That's why I firmly believe that we're assisting to a defining moment in human history, where something truly needs to be done.

The world simply can't afford to let the pyromaniacs on both sides keep on playing their suicidal game. There's no winner here.

 

[Carolina Red]

The world simply can't afford to let the pyromaniacs on both sides keep on playing their suicidal game. There's no winner here.

Quite right

 

[VorZakone]

Why weren't there elections anymore after 2006?

 

[Raoul]

Sounds pretty imminent.

 

[glazed]

I agree with you about everything in your comment, particularly your last sentence. That's why I firmly believe that we're assisting to a defining moment in human history, where something truly needs to be done.

What do you suggest? Impose a two state solution on two groups who aren't interested? Wipe out one of them? It worked for the Romans. Which one would you wipe?

Why weren't there elections anymore after 2006?

Because Hamas don't believe in democracy - they are religious theocrats.

To be fair I don't think there have been meaningful regular elections on the West Bank either. Or anywhere else in the Arab world. It's a mistake to project our cultural values onto other countries and people.

 

[JPRouve]

Why weren't there elections anymore after 2006?

Hamas took control and prevented any elections.

 

[dinostar77]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

spoken by someone truly ignorant of the situation. appaling post.

 

[E-mal]

That's not what they're telling them though. They are asking them to move south. In many ways, it is somewhat unprecedented for a military to give a population a 10 plus day warning that their area isn't safe and that they should move further south.

If you are Palestinian surely you would not trust Israel in giving you back your land. This whole thing smells like Nakba 2.0 especially when you listen to the rhetoric coming from Netanyahu's cabinet.