Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

E-mal said:
If you are Palestinian surely you would not trust Israel in giving you back your land. This whole thing smells like Nakba 2.0 especially when you listen to the rhetoric coming from Netanyahu's cabinet.
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You might be right on the Nakba 2.0 thing. Something that wouldn't have happened if not for Hamas' actions two weekends ago.
 
Raoul said:
You might be right on the Nakba 2.0 thing. Something that wouldn't have happened if not for Hamas' actions two weekends ago.
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It’s already happening and been happening in the West Bank for decades though.
 
Carolina Red said:
there’s no Hamas in the West Bank
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Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
 
I just wonder what it must feel like, to wake up every day in a pressure cooker, for years and years just feeling things ratchet up and having absolutely no control. Just waiting for something to happen, and when it does, it's never going to be good.

Absolutely grim.
 
2cents said:
Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
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But that's more of a "recent" development? And one has to ask this question, why wouldn't you start supporting the more aggressive movements when you realize that you are at the mercy of settlers and IDF with seemingly no support from the PA's authority or the international community?

It's like mistreating your dog and wondering why he eventually attacked you.

PS: Yes I know, palestinians aren't dogs.
 
JPRouve said:
But that's more of a "recent" development? And one has to ask this question, why wouldn't you start supporting the more aggressive movements when you realize that you are at the mercy of settlers and IDF with seemingly no support from the PA's authority or the international community?
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Yes I think you can probably trace it back about two years from what I’ve read. And I agree it’s probably the inevitable consequence of the situation in the West Bank over the last decade or so.
 
Raoul said:
You might be right on the Nakba 2.0 thing. Something that wouldn't have happened if not for Hamas' actions two weekends ago.
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Are you serious mate? I am not condoning Hamas, but the blockade since 2005 guaranteed that they are damned if they don't and damned if they do. I will fight back if all avenue I have attempted has failed just like the Palestinians did. I only disagree with the targeting of innocent civilians.

If we are going to be honest for once, Israel are never going to give these folks their legitimate right, neither through diplomacy nor violence, with that knowledge in mind I think their choices are very limited if at all existent. Again I do NOT condone targeting innocent civilians.
The UK started this conflict by double dealing but the USA have continued to fuel it by allowing Israel to be an apartheid and self indulging cnuts, and this is coming from someone that truly cares about Israel
 
2cents said:
Yes I think you can probably trace it back about two years from what I’ve read. And I agree it’s probably the inevitable consequence of the situation in the West Bank over the last decade or so.
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That's the timeframe that I noticed but wasn't sure. That gives me the opportunity to make a small point, in the recent death figures in the West Bank the vast majority are supposed to be innocent but a bit more than a dozen are linked to an alleged attempted attack of a military check point with explosives, IDF has made several raids since late August-early September based on that.
 
E-mal said:
Are you serious mate? I am not condoning Hamas, but the blockade since 2005 guaranteed that they are damned if they don't and damned if they do. I will fight back if all avenue I have attempted has failed just like the Palestinians did. I only disagree with the targeting of innocent civilians.

If we are going to be honest for once, Israel are never going to give these folks their legitimate right, neither through diplomacy nor violence, with that knowledge in mind I think their choices are very limited if at all existent. Again I do NOT condone targeting innocent civilians.
The UK started this conflict by double dealing but the USA have continued to fuel it by allowing Israel to be an apartheid and self indulging cnuts, and this is coming from someone that truly cares about Israel
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I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
 
Raoul said:
I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
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Yeah but whatabout... etc
 
2cents said:
Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
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Sorry…

*there had been no Hamas in the West Bank, yet Israelis kept killing Palestinians

And I’d tend to think along the same lines as what @JPRouve said… any recent growth of militant factions in the West Bank has to be traced, at least in part, to the persistent actions of Settlers and IDF in the West Bank. I also have to consider if it wasn’t the Israeli government’s intention all along for militancy to grow in the West Bank in order to give them an excuse to take more action there.
 
Raoul said:
Sounds pretty imminent.

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Raoul said:
I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
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I understand your point, but looking at the crisis as snapshot from two weeks ago would never solve the problem. The Israelis created the largest prison ever and thought it had never blow up in their face. Except they are ready to murder 2.3 million people, these tactics will never bring peace. They are fighting people who have nothing to loose. The only way to expect peace from your enemy is to give him something he is in danger of losing.
 
Carolina Red said:
Sorry…

*there had been no Hamas in the West Bank, yet Israelis kept killing Palestinians

And I’d tend to think along the same lines as what @JPRouve said… any recent growth of militant factions in the West Bank has to be traced, at least in part, to the persistent actions of Settlers and IDF in the West Bank. I also have to consider if it wasn’t the Israeli government’s intention all along for militancy to grow in the West Bank in order to give them an excuse to take more action there.
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Yes I tend to agree, especially with the bolded.
 
2cents said:
Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
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I have to somehow get an answer from anyone with a solid knowledge on this very delicate matter and you're one of the posters I respect the most in this thread.

I tried to ask Israeli posters but got no answers. Abbas is toast, everybody knows it. The PA has been a shit show for decades, yet I see one man on that side who was, and imo still is, a valid partner in the peace negociations. That's Marwan Barghouti. What's your take on him?
 
Raoul said:
I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
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Exactly. None of this latest siege would have happened if not for the appalling attacks by Hamas.
 
That_Bloke said:
I see one man on that side who was, and imo still is, a valid partner in the peace negociations. That's Marwan Barghouti. What's your take on him?
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I’d be a bit hesitant to pin much hope on any individual to break the deadlock (you see it with the counter-factual hopes placed on Rabin for example), and I’d worry that the years of imprisonment and time off the scene have raised his stature beyond its worth in terms of peace-making. I suspect his popularity among Palestinians might decline quite sharply were he to emerge from prison and immediately set out to forge a two-state peace with Israel, but perhaps he has the aura about him to overcome that.

From the Israeli side, he’s obviously going to remain suspect as a hero of the two intifadas, particularly the second which, until two weeks ago, was the most traumatic episode for Israeli society in their long confrontation with the Palestinians. And of course as a potentially unifying figure the Israeli anti-peace right that has dominated their governments for almost fifteen years now will be happy to continue to see him rot.
 
If Hamas returned all the hostages then Israel would stop the onslaught. They won't though because Hamas hates the 200 hostages more than it loves the 2m Palestinians that they claim to fight for
 
gfactor86 said:
If Hamas returned all the hostages then Israel would stop the onslaught. They won't though because Hamas hates the 200 hostages more than it loves the 2m Palestinians that they claim to fight for
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I don't think Israel will pull back even if the hostages where released at this point. They won't stop until they have destroyd Hamas fighting capabilities in Gaza, it will be bloody as hell for both sides but as usual when it comes to urban warfare it will be the civilians that are trapped in the area that will take the biggest hit.
 
Amir said:
Attention in Israel to whatever is going on in the WB is low in normal times. Now it's really non existant. Add the fact that the govenment is pro-settlers, that the IDF helps them at times as well and that its attention has also been diverted, and you get this terrible situation.

Some settlers are truly scum.
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Thanks for sharing mate, I get your point. I was actually meaning the lack of global attention and stern pushback against this.
 
RedTiger said:
They'd need to release him first and that ain't happening any time soon.
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Hamas have demanded his release in previous hostage negotiations without success. Have to wonder how much they might value him in future potential negotiations given the massive leverage they now have in terms of numbers.
 
gfactor86 said:
If Hamas returned all the hostages then Israel would stop the onslaught. They won't though because Hamas hates the 200 hostages more than it loves the 2m Palestinians that they claim to fight for
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I seriously doubt that. They would simply swap hostages and the Israelis would still go in and remove Hamas. They are committed to doing this as there is by all accounts broad agreement in Israel that they cant go back to the world of pre two weeks ago.
 
gfactor86 said:
If Hamas returned all the hostages then Israel would stop the onslaught. They won't though because Hamas hates the 200 hostages more than it loves the 2m Palestinians that they claim to fight for
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0 Chance. Israel won't stop and the west will sit diligently and watch as genocide happens.
 
Carolina Red said:
Answer the question

Why do Israelis keep killing Palestinians in the West Bank?
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Because they are terrorist scum empowered by terrorist ministers, who know they can get away with it and the police are now not allowed to stop them.

Worth noting the Israeli public didn’t vote for these guys any more than Palestinians voted for Hamas.
 
2cents said:
Hamas have demanded his release in previous hostage negotiations without success. Have to wonder how much they might value him in future potential negotiations given the massive leverage they now have in terms of numbers.
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Is it in their interests?
 
the hea said:
There is a lot we can criticize the IDF for but this is not one thing. The biggest priority for both IDF, Hamas or any other part in any war should always be the evacuation of civilians.
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Sure, I respect that point of view. However, if they leave Northern Gaza, one day they will be forced to leave its southern part, and then they will never be allowed to come back. This is not a typical call to evacuate a place for some time after which they can return. If they leave, it’s OVER!
 
Raven said:
US saying it's not the right time for an investigation into the hospital bombing.
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Someone: Israel did the bombing.

US: HEY! Don't you dare say that, we did an investigation and Israel is innocent.

Someone: Okay, can someone else do an investigation?

US: Now is not the right time for an investigation.
 
gfactor86 said:
If Hamas returned all the hostages then Israel would stop the onslaught.
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Not at all. That would just mean we'll be back to where we were two weeks ago - With Hamas waiting just accross the border. Only this time, very few Israelis would be willing to take the risk and live anywhere near the Gaza strip. The meaning would be the abandonment of dozens of Israeli cities and kibbutz communities.
 
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