Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position

[Robbie Boy]

We've lost 5 out of 10 in the league, 7 lost, 7 won in total so far this season. Spent £400m and says his players can't play the way he wants them to like at Ajax, and we have no style of play and no fight.

What he's receiving is called criticism, and it's completely justified, seeing as he largely gets a free ride due to the owners/stadium/Murtough/lack of DOF etc. Just because people are finally asking what he's doing doesn't mean the 'knives are out'.

Isn't 'knives are out' just a saying????

 

[crossy1686]

OK calm down.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I think we needed a star attacker
Someone that wouldn’t just be world class himself but the lifted the people around him as well. Harry Kane is the one we should have gone for.

The Onana, Mount and Hojlund money should have been used for that. He would have had a bigger impact than all three combined.

Deemed Kane unaffordable then wasted 110 on a keeper that can’t save and a midfielder who doesn’t fit in. Hojlund is decent tbf but it’ll take years before he’s ready.

We can appoint the best manager in the world but until our recruitment isn’t sorted we’ll remain mid table dross

Spurs had Kane last year and he scored a lot but they still finished way behind us.

Our midfield area is terrible. It doesnt pass well, defend well or run well. Games are won and lost in midfield.

 

[crossy1686]

Isn't 'knives are out' just a saying????

It suggests open hostility towards someone I would say, not that they're questioning if he's performing as well as he could in his job role.

 

[Robbie Boy]

They do? Didn't they reach two finals and finish 3rd last season? Must be a pretty big collective regression if they all need replacing after already spending £400m on improving the squad.

You think this squad is good? I would happily see it ripped apart and replaced by far younger and hungrier players. Arteta got rid of Guendouzi for example; good player but shite attitude. He then got rid of the liked of Torreira, Auba, Lacazette etc and built a young, hungry team in his vision.

Sure you and others think it was some massive fluke we got 3rd last season, so you hardly rate this squad

 

[Robbie Boy]

It suggests open hostility towards someone I would say, not that they're questioning if he's performing as well as he could in his job role.

To me it's always suggested that the tide is turning and most are now started to openly criticise him.

 

[crossy1686]

You think this squad is good? I would happily see it ripped apart and replaced by far younger and hungrier players. Arteta got rid of Guendouzi for example; good player but shite attitude. He then got rid of the liked of Torreira, Auba, Lacazette etc and built a young, hungry team in his vision.

Sure you and others think it was some massive fluke we got 3rd last season, so you hardly rate this squad

I don't think the squad is great but they can comfortably achieve top 4 and win a trophy if they're coached and set up right, and that's your platform to build on. We need investment, that is absolutely given, especially in the midfield and fullback positions, or pretty much everywhere if you dig deep enough but we aren't going to win the league anytime soon so saying we need to rip the squad apart to do that is a fantasy that just isn't going to happen. All squads that do win the league are cultivated and grown, not thrown together.

I think last season is a fair reflection of the ability we have in our squad, and I include the drop off from the first 11 to the second string in that. The issue is that we have a collective group of 23 players who are all measurably worse this season than they were last season, which suggests it isn't the players and there's something wrong with the tactics or management.

We don't need a total rebuild, we need to augment the squad with more upcoming talent and allow them the time to develop and become better players. Then we'll start to see year on year progress.

 

[pocco]

I’m sorry to break it to you but we are not an elite team.

Because we don't act like one. We wait till a manager takes us to absolute rock bottom before we act. It's all part of a bigger issue with accountability at the club.

Why we feel we need to operate differently to every other club is beyond me.

 

[Jacko21]

It suggests open hostility towards someone I would say, not that they're questioning if he's performing as well as he could in his job role.

Is there not a bit of semantics in picking up the use of the phrase 'knives out'?

There has been a discernible shift in the mood in the wake of the defeat at the weekend (and ETH's comments) - everything I've read and listened to has become a lot more pointed.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I don't think the squad is great but they can comfortably achieve top 4 and win a trophy if they're coached and set up right, and that's your platform to build on. We need investment, that is absolutely given, especially in the midfield and fullback positions, or pretty much everywhere if you dig deep enough but we aren't going to win the league anytime soon so saying we need to rip the squad apart to do that is a fantasy that just isn't going to happen. All squads that do win the league are cultivated and grown, not thrown together.

I think last season is a fair reflection of the ability we have in our squad, and I include the drop off from the first 11 to the second string in that. The issue is that we have a collective group of 23 players who are all measurably worse this season than they were last season, which suggests it isn't the players and there's something wrong with the tactics or management.

We don't need a total rebuild, we need to augment the squad with more upcoming talent and allow them the time to develop and become better players. Then we'll start to see year on year progress.

Each to their own but for me, yeah we need a rebuild. This isn't a defence of ETH, who clearly should be doing better.

We need a structural change, potentially a management change and then a rebuild. Otherwise it's the same shite; manager comes in, adds some dross to the dross that's there and the cycle continues. The year is 2023 and we're still lining up at times with the likes of AWB, Dalot, Maguire, McT and Martial. Then we have an injury ravaged Varane, a rapidly declining Casemiro and the likes of Evans/Eriksen (who's clearly a spent force).

Do we wait for another Rashy purple patch for our revival or pine for Bruno's output from 3 or 4 years ago? Yes, we badly need a massive rebuild. There are some players to work with, but overall, this squad is a mess. That's not even getting into Antony, Sancho and Greenwood.

 

[GreatDane]

I think we needed a star attacker
Someone that wouldn’t just be world class himself but the lifted the people around him as well. Harry Kane is the one we should have gone for.

The Onana, Mount and Hojlund money should have been used for that. He would have had a bigger impact than all three combined.

Deemed Kane unaffordable then wasted 110 on a keeper that can’t save and a midfielder who doesn’t fit in. Hojlund is decent tbf but it’ll take years before he’s ready.

We can appoint the best manager in the world but until our recruitment isn’t sorted we’ll remain mid table dross

I would have loved Kane but would he have made a difference, seeing that our striker doesn't recieve much service anyway. Our wingers hate crossing the ball and Bruno keeps passing it to the opposition anyway.

 

[Rista]

It brought us good success in year one, and a big low in the first third of this season.

But no manager worth their salt comes in with a long term fix without pain. Other candidates aren't worthy of a discussion because this one hasn't had the time to implement the necessary. And it's going to suck balls when it's low, deal with it.

And what is all this based on other than blind faith? 99% of the time things go this bad results in going from bad to worse and manager being sacked. There is zero indication there is any long term masterplan going on and that this is just a temporary low and yet you're trying to portray it as if it's the norm in football.

The "who then?" argument is very tiring. It's not about sacking Ten Hag right now or in a couple of months. This season is a loss already anyway. It's about him not looking like he's the man to take us forward. I don't see how can anyone sit here and not ask questions at least.

 

[crossy1686]

Is there not a bit of semantics in picking up the use of the phrase 'knives out'?

There has been a discernible shift in the mood in the wake of the defeat at the weekend (and ETH's comments) - everything I've read and listened to has become a lot more pointed.

Yes, it's called criticism. I've not heard anyone in the media or outside of fans on the internet say he should be sacked or wanting him gone. Just literally people asking questions as to what's going on and what the manager is doing. It's not 'knives out' territory yet.

 

[rimaldo]

the squad harmony looks off to me, it was one of the major plus points of last season. it felt like the players were playing for each other and enjoying each other’s successes. that’s disappeared. i reckon one of the new signings has a major hog and it’s made the rest of our players really self-conscious in the dressing room. i do worry about ten hag if he’s not taking hog size into consideration when he’s buying players, especially if he’s worked with them before and already seen it.

 

[FortunaUtd]

the squad harmony looks off to me, it was one of the major plus points of last season. it felt like the players were playing for each other and enjoying each other’s successes. that’s disappeared. i reckon one of the new signings has a major hog and it’s made the rest of our players really self-conscious in the dressing room. i do worry about ten hag if he’s not taking hog size into consideration when he’s buying players, especially if he’s worked with them before and already seen it.

It has got to be Mount. Ten Hag is excused there.

 

[crossy1686]

Each to their own but for me, yeah we need a rebuild. This isn't a defence of ETH, who clearly should be doing better.

We need a structural change, potentially a management change and then a rebuild. Otherwise it's the same shite; manager comes in, adds some dross to the dross that's there and the cycle continues. The year is 2023 and we're still lining up at times with the likes of AWB, Dalot, Maguire, McT and Martial. Then we have an injury ravaged Varane, a rapidly declining Casemiro and the likes of Evans/Eriksen (who's clearly a spent force).

Do we wait for another Rashy purple patch for our revival or pine for Bruno's output from 3 or 4 years ago? Yes, we badly need a massive rebuild. There are some players to work with, but overall, this squad is a mess. That's not even getting into Antony, Sancho and Greenwood.

We need to start replacing players for sure but a rebuild is unnecessary. You're essentially saying throw the baby out with the bath water because they are all collectively bad, even after proving they can be good. We've seen how rebuilds go, look at Chelsea. You can end up worse after a rebuild if you get rid of the players that can perform well in the right set up.

The problem I have with the whole structure thing, despite the fact Murtough has allowed Ten Hag to buy shite players for big money, is that if we do bring a DOF in, what are they going to do? Has a single DOF ever been successful twice in a row at two different clubs? They only seem to get it right once and then get it wrong another 3 times before they disappear. On top of that, they're going to come in and recommend a bunch of players that won't be ready to contribute to the first team for a couple of seasons. When Brighton sign a player they usually loan them out for a year or two and then integrate them into the first team so they've always got a continuos supply of talent. We can't afford to do that right now, not when you're spending the sums we are.

Then when that doesn't work we'll all be sitting around asking who the next DOF is going to be because this one isn't working, so we've moved the discussion off the manager and to the DOF instead.

We need players, absolutely, but we all know this and yet the manager chased Mount and spent daft money on him in the summer. He also sanctioned Antony's purchase despite knowing he has no right foot. Somehow the manager doesn't understand the basics or recruitment yet most of us on here get it. We just need the right man in charge and all this stuff works itself out. Just look at Liverpool when they appointed Klopp.

 

[Kumar Abhishek]

What I will say is that there are very few examples of managers coming back from a situation like this. While managers traditionally have borne the brunt of fans' ire, the modern chronically online nature of the fanbase and social media users means that the media, fans (both ours and those of other teams), and the club get locked into a spiral of doom that becomes extremely hard to come out of. Already, I can sense a bloodlust on this forum that demands a blood sacrifice and a manager/coach will always be the first on the block. No amount of calls for patience or moderation will satisfy this bloodlust. I sometimes feel that it is possible for a fanbase to get locked into this cycle of boom and bust that traditionally plays out as a deep sense of despair, followed by a dramatic rise in hope that a new manager brings, followed by either a constant high of winning matches or having deep withdrawal symptoms of not seeing a firing happen (in this stage, there is an irrational belief in the presence of a 'messiah' out there who would fix everything if only he was given a chance).

This time is a bit weird in terms of how quickly things have unraveled. I know many fans seem to claim that they have seen this coming (where apparently we have been awful since the League Cup final and all the signs were there), I don't remember many fans saying this at the beginning of the season when optimism was at an all-time high. Right now, even though there are clearly no better alternatives, people will want to see someone, anyone that can give them a sense of hope. I sometimes feel myself thinking along the same lines. No deeper point here, just an expression of sadness.

 

[rimaldo]

It has got to be Mount. Ten Hag is excused there.

he played on loan in dutchland, they’d have been whispers of his schlong.

“hej erik, have you heard about mount? he’sh packing shome sherious heat. they might even have to shend him back to chelshea, it’sh shcaring shome of the academy kidsh.”

 

[Fortitude]

Because we don't act like one. We wait till a manager takes us to absolute rock bottom before we act. It's all part of a bigger issue with accountability at the club.

Why we feel we need to operate differently to every other club is beyond me.

Especially when the mysticism with that revolves around two, and two referential managers alone, and not the club itself.

You don’t have to modernise with an institution of a manager overseeing everything, but without that superpower, not only are you back in the pack, but behind it because the single point failure is upon you, which is what our entire decade-long fallout has been about.

A lot of fans refuse to accept that you need an otherworldly manager at the helm to not have to conform.

 

[FortunaUtd]

he played on loan in dutchland, they’d have been whispers of his schlong.

“hej erik, have you heard about mount? he’sh packing shome sherious heat. they might even have to shend him back to chelshea, it’sh shcaring shome of the academy kidsh.”

To be fair, average penis size is higher in the Netherlands than in the UK https://www.worlddata.info/average-penissize.php
Mount might not have stood out there as much, but we might have more indication now about why he left Chelsea, as Argentina is also further down the table.

2 remaining posts left today. Can I put them to good use?

 

[Robbie Boy]

We need to start replacing players for sure but a rebuild is unnecessary. You're essentially saying throw the baby out with the bath water because they are all collectively bad, even after proving they can be good. We've seen how rebuilds go, look at Chelsea. You can end up worse after a rebuild if you get rid of the players that can perform well in the right set up.

The problem I have with the whole structure thing, despite the fact Murtough has allowed Ten Hag to buy shite players for big money, is that if we do bring a DOF in, what are they going to do? Has a single DOF ever been successful twice in a row at two different clubs? They only seem to get it right once and then get it wrong another 3 times before they disappear. On top of that, they're going to come in and recommend a bunch of players that won't be ready to contribute to the first team for a couple of seasons. When Brighton sign a player they usually loan them out for a year or two and then integrate them into the first team so they've always got a continuos supply of talent. We can't afford to do that right now, not when you're spending the sums we are.

Then when that doesn't work we'll all be sitting around asking who the next DOF is going to be because this one isn't working, so we've moved the discussion off the manager and to the DOF instead.

We need players, absolutely, but we all know this and yet the manager chased Mount and spent daft money on him in the summer. He also sanctioned Antony's purchase despite knowing he has no right foot. Somehow the manager doesn't understand the basics or recruitment yet most of us on here get it. We just need the right man in charge and all this stuff works itself out. Just look at Liverpool when they appointed Klopp.

Well, we need to try something new as our current structure and strategy has led to a near decade of monumental failure, with poor player and managerial recruitment.

There are players that have now failed under 3, 4 or 5 different managers. They all need to go. There's some players that can be worked with, but I would be happy to see a large proportion binned off.

Klopp wasn't selecting his players though? Wasn't there a DoF model in place and he apparently wasn't keen on Salah. We honestly need to do what Arteta was allowed to do at Arsenal but under the watch of a proper footballing structure. We just can't continue in this vein as it hasn't been one managerial failure, it's been a plethora of them and they have all poorly recruited.

Look at Brighton? People are lauding De Zerbi, but the fact is, he walked into a brilliant structure and doesn't have to handpick his own players. If he walked tomorrow: I can bet that Brighton have a man lined up who can seamlessly settle in. If we sack ETH tomorrow, I can bet we have zero succession plan in place and we're back to square one.

 

[rimaldo]

To be fair, average penis size is higher in the Netherlands than in the UK https://www.worlddata.info/average-penissize.php
Mount might not have stood out there as much, but we might have more indication now about why he left Chelsea, as Argentina is also further down the table.

2 remaining posts left today. Can I put them to good use?

2 more on the topic of average penis length should see you promoted imo. far more sensible than all the ten hag out stuff.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Massive issue around here. People become weirdly obsessive about mangers that have largely been absolute failures. Ole's shortcomings were absolutely glaring as are ETH's.

I wish people could be more objective about our managers. ETH done a pretty good job last season and I expected him to kick on. This season has been an absolute mess though. We actually played some nice football at times last season but this season has mirrored Jose and Ole's worst brand of football. I just can't see what he's trying to do whatsoever; we have zero identity, zero gameplan and zero cohesion.

In saying that; the club is totally broken and whoever comes in will likely fail unless they are allowed to overhaul the squad, which they won't be allowed to do. Who is actually available and will come in and be 'the right man'? I'm not seeing many great candidates; Potter would be a terrible appointment, and I really hope we don't go there.

I dont fully agree that anyone will fail. What we have consistently failed to do is hire a really strong coach. Ole couldn't coach for toffee, LVG could but only really dull football. Moyes couldnt coach progressive oo

Well, we need to try something new as our current structure and strategy has led to a near decade of monumental failure, with poor player and managerial recruitment.

There are players that have now failed under 3, 4 or 5 different managers. They all need to go. There's some players that can be worked with, but I would be happy to see a large proportion binned off.

Klopp wasn't selecting his players though? Wasn't there a DoF model in place and he apparently wasn't keen on Salah. We honestly need to do what Arteta was allowed to do at Arsenal but under the watch of a proper footballing structure. We just can't continue in this vein as it hasn't been one managerial failure, it's been a plethora of them and they have all poorly recruited.

Look at Brighton? People are lauding De Zerbi, but the fact is, he walked into a brilliant structure and doesn't have to handpick his own players. If he walked tomorrow: I can bet that Brighton have a man lined who can seamlessly settle in. If we sack ETH tomorrow, I can bet we have zero succession plan in place and we're back to square one.

Some teams do it well, its not that hard. United are way behind the curve on modern data analytics and scouting. The scouting system had looked at Anthony and rejected him, but our pathetic football (mis)management caved in to ETH. He's just as bad as the reports suggested. Thats our problem. No coherent structure, no consistency, then appointing amateurs to key roles. We have never had a DOF, why not?

 

[Borys]

Yeah I think we can agree on many things. This shit is too complicated for me to further discuss it tbh.

Anyway regarding Mount if my memory serves me right ETH did play him deeper as a ball carrier at the beginning. But imo he didn't do well enough so ETH moved him up top. One thing I've noticed with ETH is he tend to move the worst ones on the ball there. Like Fred, WW, McT, Sabitzer, VDB previously.

I don't think he did, first half serious game in which Casemiro/Bruno/Mount started was against Lens, and Mount played very high up the pitch right away. I am just pointing out Mount is definitely following instructions. IMO he should be moved to midfield, not ideal but I rate him and I actually like when he gets involved. The problem is he's not involved enough, but we will need to change his initial position/role and I don't think ETH sees that as an option watching what he does with midfield.

 

[FortunaUtd]

2 more on the topic of average penis length should see you promoted imo. far more sensible than all the ten hag out stuff.

I do not believe you as I have a hard time taking you seriously.
An alternative theory though (let us be thorough): Phil Lynch, Man Utd CEO of Media, doing his thing scouring social media for the hottest trends, filling Murtough's ear with the need for 'BDE'? And neither of them thinking through the ramifications for dressing room dynamics? If true that would be further evidence we need a more experienced DoF.

 

[pratyush_utd]

I’m saying the issue is obviously deeper than just Erik. We’ve been badly run for a decade as you have said.

Issues are there but last 1.5 year since Erik has arrived we have backed him in every major decision and got him all but one (FDJ) player.

I saw Mancity game and couldn’t get myself to even get angry at our performance. It was that bad that i actually feel sorry for few players who were trying to play. Missed previous 2 as they were kicking off after midnight. This probably happened once or twice in last decade that i missed watching United play on purpose.

ETH just cant escape responsibility citing Glazers handling of club last decade or so. In my opinion ETH has been backed better than every other manager we had. We shouldn’t need billions to put on decent performances against Crystal Palace at home. I am not even judging him on the results, its the performance that needs to improve.

 

[Xaviboy]

Looking at league table there and we have -5 goals, that's shocking lads.

All money spent and that's where we are at.

Brutal

 

[Robbie Boy]

Because we don't act like one. We wait till a manager takes us to absolute rock bottom before we act. It's all part of a bigger issue with accountability at the club.

Why we feel we need to operate differently to every other club is beyond me.

It's also our fans who act really fecking weird about managers too. Most post-Fergie managers have little cults who couldn't see the wood from the trees when said manager was in charge. They felt these managers - who largely failed - should get unlimited time and money to turn us into challengers. To this day, they'll also still defend said managers and romanticise their tenures.

I honestly don't think fans of other top clubs act like this and I find it all very strange.

 

[stefan92]

I do not believe you as I have a hard time taking you seriously.
An alternative theory though (let us be thorough): Phil Lynch, Man Utd CEO of Media, doing his thing scouring social media for the hottest trends, filling Murtough's ear with the need for 'BDE'? And neither of them thinking through the ramifications for dressing room dynamics? If true that would be further evidence we need a more experienced DoF.

I'm sitting here, shaking my head and laughing about this at the same time. Didn't expect a discussion about this to be the most well-measured part of any thread ever.

 

[wolvored]

Comparing us to probably the best side in the world isn't fair

That is the norm most matches though. We must pass it in our own half more than any other 'top' club. Maguire was culpable of this passing it back to Onana many times against City. Our players are like statues compared to other teams. There is no outball as they are all marked with only very rarely running off the ball. Look at Villa, Newcastle how smoothly they find other players from the back, never mind the 'bigger' teams.

 

[sunama]

It's just the same story isn't it.

It's like we're trapped in one of those horror movies set in an old mansion where the doomed guests keep ending up in the same room whichever direction they go. Just when you think you've escaped the ghosts of MacGuire and Lindeloff they're somehow right in front of you again, clinking their chains and lumbering slowly forwards.

Ten Hag has gone the way of all his predecessors, rambling like a madman and dancing about under the shadow of a swinging axe. Bashing at the door of the crypt is the walking corpse of Johnny Evans, freshly risen and snarling in defiance. Above the mantelpiece a huge portrait of Alex Ferguson seems to be weeping blood.

Damn.
Funny post.

 

[Strelok]

I don't think he did, first half serious game in which Casemiro/Bruno/Mount started was against Lens, and Mount played very high up the pitch right away. I am just pointing out Mount is definitely following instructions. IMO he should be moved to midfield, not ideal but I rate him and I actually like when he gets involved. The problem is he's not involved enough, but we will need to change his initial position/role and I don't think ETH sees that as an option watching what he does with midfield.

I didn't watch the friendlies so I didn't know he played that high. Anyway those friendlies don't mean much imo.

I was talking about the Wolves and/or Spurs match if my memory serves me right. He was not horrible but contributed basically nothing and could not progress the ball forward so got subbed off early. Anyway I'm getting old can't remember shit so you're probably right I think.

 

[croadyman]

ETH was using his agency for the transfers and I am sure he was really happy about this arrangement. If this is taken away from him, it will definitely feel to him like a demotion.

He needs demoting for his own good

This is pretty spot on imo.

But most fans just want us to win and play fantastic football immediately so don't know if ETH would survive this. Hope our CEO is not as clueless and knee jerk as our fans. Or Sir James Arthur Ratcliffe FIChemE if he takes over.

For me there's no use in sacking ETH. He did sort of a miracle in his first season here having to deal with a really big fecking mess inherited from the season before. Both on/off the pitch. He's surely a very good manager imo.

This season imo he's simply been too unlucky with injures and players suddenly decide to turn crap. We should keep supporting him I think. Changing the manager now won't do us anything good imo. Again I don't think even Pep would make us tick now given the players and injuries we currently have. Then having a new manager with another approach will just repeat the mistake we keep doing in the last 10 years.

I don't know how many times I have to say this but we have been garbage since League Cup Final. He had the majority available up until Licha injury against Sevilla. Also getting annoyed with doubters being called kneejerk when some have felt the same for months. Maybe if he hadn't overplayed them last season then would have a back 4 available now. IF he wants full support then show you have the balls to drop the biggest underperformers,that doesn't mean just resting them tomorrow night either.

 

[Pintu]

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[Borys]

I didn't watch the friendlies so I didn't know he played that high. Anyway those friendlies don't mean much imo.

I was talking about the Wolves and/or Spurs match if my memory serves me right. He was not horrible but contributed basically nothing and could not progress the ball forward so got subbed off early. Anyway I'm getting old can't remember shit so you're probably right I think.

I think he played very high and in any case, Casemiro was left on his own. About the friendlies, I usually dismiss them but actually in this case we played exactly the same way against Lens and against Wolves, and we had exactly the same issues.
I don't think Mount has played as a midfielder once for United.

 

[croadyman]

I’m slightly leaning towards sacking ETH too but yeah agreed that Murtough and Fletch have to go as well.

Yeah they absolutely have to go first,maybe some ardent backers will realise there is a problem when we get thrashed at Anfield again. Well unless Shaw & AWB coming back suddenly revitalises us completely because don't see Licha being available until at least xmas

 

[Skills]

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[Jev]

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That's unreal. Wow.

 

[Jeffthered]

'Ten Haag has signed 16 players since he has been at Man United.... Now he’s telling us he hasn’t got the right sort of players....'

Seen this on a Times Online discussion.

This 'I haven't the players to play the Ajax way' statement is both shocking and very irresponsible. ETH is essentially, drafting his own resignation letter.

 

[TsuWave]

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Glazers!