Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Roane]

It's really hard to know what is true and what is not when both sides just use propaganda and lies. I am however convinced that the IDF and Hamas are equally bad and both sides couldn't care less about civilian lives.

Yeah you have to sift through a lot of it but eventually some things start to come through.

The 40 beheaded babies for instance didn't happen.

The rapes seems more and more likely didn't happen. Even some of the Jewish papers who are adamant it did are sounding silly in terms of why it can't be proved.

 

[nimic]

There were "reports" that when the alarms went off on 10/7 IDF went in guns blazing and could be responsible for killing the revellers at the festival and more.

These are gaining more traction now in some quarters.

You can't believe that.

 

[Roane]

You can't believe that.

I'm doing what most are doing. Posting things from online.

This however I am starting to believe. Doesn't mean I will end up being right. However currently I am aware of people inside Gaza/Palestine. These people are sending out information, videos etc.

I have more reason to believe them than the Israeli narrative tbh.

Others are free to believe what they want

 

[2cents]

I'm doing what most are doing. Posting things from online.

If that’s what you were actually doing then at least the rest of us might be able to get a sense of the value of what you’re saying. But really you’re just posting stuff you’ve heard on WhatsApp.

 

[Revan]

What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? It cannot possibly be 1948. Was it after 1967? 1973?

If it is a sincere question then I’ll reply. Sometime after 1967 when they decided that the occupation of West Bank and Gaza is a very long-time if not permanent occupation, and the people there wouldn’t have elementary human rights let alone citizenship. Thing is, West Bank has been de facto part of Israel for 55 years now, and people there have been massively discriminated for over half a century. They get ruled by Israel but they do not get any say about Israel. They cannot walk in certain streets that only Israeli citizens can (which is another example of segregation), they cannot leave and come back, they cannot even bring friends and family in their houses, they need to go in severs checkpoints each day while going to work and so on. By every definition it is an apartheid state as has been said by organizations like amnesty international, experienced people in apartheid like Nelson Mandela, Israel politicians like ex-prime minster Ehud Barak or various decorated Israeli soldiers.

By deciding to annex West Bank (de facto) they had 3 ways forward: 1) apartheid state, 2) give to them citizenship which very likely would result with the end of Israel, or at least the end of Israel as a Jewish state or 3) ethnic cleansing and genocide. They went for (1) knowing the implications.

 

[Roane]

If that’s what you were actually doing then at least the rest of us might be able to get a sense of the value of what you’re saying. But really you’re just posting stuff you’ve heard on WhatsApp.

And?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

There have been reports, some explicit and some implicit, of the IDF attacking Hamas in ways that likely resulted in Israelis dying in the crossfire.

This being the way the majority of civilians died is wildly implausible.

 

[do.ob]

If that’s what you were actually doing then at least the rest of us might be able to get a sense of the value of what you’re saying. But really you’re just posting stuff you’ve heard on WhatsApp.

It's just Hamas propaganda from a couple of weeks ago. This poster does this a lot. Posts some "controversial" opinion, then hides behind "I'm not capable of sharing links", "I'm just asking questions", "well it's what someone else said/wrote".

 

[2cents]

It's just Hamas propaganda from a couple of weeks ago. This poster does this a lot. Posts some "controversial" opinion, then hides behind "I'm not capable of sharing links", "I'm just asking questions", "well it's what someone else said/wrote".

Yes I’m fully aware of his agenda.

 

[RedSky]

George fecking Galloway!

 

[Roane]

It's just Hamas propaganda from a couple of weeks ago. This poster does this a lot. Posts some "controversial" opinion, then hides behind "I'm not capable of sharing links", "I'm just asking questions", "well it's what someone else said/wrote".

Yes I’m fully aware of his agenda.

Here's a thought.

How about one of you fine gentlemen without an agenda PM me on how to post the links etc?

FYI I use a xiomi Redmi phone. Long story why but it is what it is. Even opening word etc takes me to some Chinese links etc.

For further information. The links will be videos of what's happening on the ground. Sent via Whatsapp (don't know why this is a problem for some but hey ho) by people in Gaza.

Also videos containing newspaper reports from inside Israel, Haaretz and what not, giving quotes from army personnel.

Me writing out reports and citing the person, eg George Galloway (see earlier posts) was imo sufficient. However some of you didn't like that. So I await instructions as I am keen to learn and it would save me time. Thanks in advance

 

[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

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[ManUtd1999]

Note: I have noticed this week that the US media is shifting the focus away of the war in the ME. Not surprising, of course, but it’s seems that they’re going back to normal “business”.

 

[That_Bloke]

And?

In a war where disinformation rages and it's extremely difficult to get reliable accounts of what's happening there, it would be awesome if you posted something that has a bit more of a credible source than "Trust me, bro."

 

[That_Bloke]

CNN continues to surprise me and I'm wondering where the shift is coming from. Here's the take of Benzi Sanders, a former IDF soldier and now peace activist about the military resolution of the conflict.

 

[jadaba]

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The US promptly and publicly accepted Israel's evidence for the Al Ahly Hospital bombing, but multiple investigations later refuted the evidence and found it was unrelated to the hospital. Biden also publicly cast doubt on the number of casualties in Gaza, but his administration later stated that they believe it is actually being undercounted.

Now they're providing a half-baked backing of Israeli intelligence claims, but frankly these US intelligence stances no longer seem reliable in the slightest. The US has lost a substantial amount of credibility over the past month and these statements will no longer hold sway in the minds of many.

 

[nimic]

Me writing out reports and citing the person, eg George Galloway (see earlier posts) was imo sufficient. However some of you didn't like that.

Presumably they didn't like it because George Galloway is a terrible source, and he was spreading outright Hamas propaganda.

 

[Roane]

Presumably they didn't like it because George Galloway is a terrible source, and he was spreading outright Hamas propaganda.

I don't actually have a problem with someone shouting my post down because I cited George Galloway. He is who is and people can make their own minds up.

That said I'd give him more credibility than anything posted from an IDF/ Israeli Govt or even American Govt POV. Not a lot more but certainly more.

The IDF role in some of the deaths on 10/7 is something that has more to it than people believe imo.

 

[The Corinthian]

 

[Anustart89]

Imagine the numbers if they didn't go for surgical precision

 

[The Corinthian]

Imagine the numbers if they didn't go for surgical precision

Yep that mixture of Israeli and US intelligence is second to none.

 

[Frosty]

That plus sign is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

 

[Idxomer]

Their bombing has very little to do with Hamas so that's not surprising.

 

[Beachryan]

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Is that a decent source? Just two weeks ago Reuters and AP reported polling that 49% of Israelis opposed ground forces. That's a huge shift if true

 

[jadaba]

Is that a decent source? Just two weeks ago Reuters and AP reported polling that 49% of Israelis opposed ground forces. That's a huge shift if true

The Arab population of Israel alone is around 20%, so 85% support would be surprising.

 

[Idxomer]

The Arab population of Israel alone is around 20%, so 85% support would be surprising.

Are those 20% allowed to voice their opinion?

 

[The Corinthian]

Are those 20% allowed to voice their opinion?

Arab citizens of Israel are actually being censored and their social media posts being monitored too. Someone posted a tweet / article about it a page or so ago.

 

[Kaos]

Are those 20% allowed to voice their opinion?

An Arab Israeli here on the caf had answered that earlier:

Here’s why I’ve not been posting in here despite reading takes ranging from the horrifically uninformed to the blatantly racist:

Today in Israel, I’m not allowed to voice an opinion. Palestinian citizens of Israel have been forcefully silenced and threatened for any social media activity that isn’t in line with Israeli Hasbara. There’s a serious witch hunt going on. Full blown McCarthyism.

Hundreds have been detained, fired from their jobs. Hundreds have been threatened by Jewish citizens with physical harm. Authorities and law makers threatening to revoke our citizenship.

I’ll remain quiet for now in regards to the main issues rather than taking the risk of being ratted out like four of my friends who have been arrested for:

1) Following an Instagram page called eye on Palestine.
2) Sharing a post by an Israeli Jew on Facebook that accused Israel of genocide (the Israeli Jew has not been arrested, the Arab who shared the Jew’s post did get arrested).
3) Posting an instagram story sympathizing with the children of Gaza and calling for a ceasefire.
4) Being ratted out by her Jewish “friend” who shared screenshots of a private conversation they had on facebook, where she said there’s no evidence of beheadings. She’s been detained for three days, bullied by tens of thousands online, with the screenshots broadcasted on television.

An Arab medical doctor got fired because of an old profile pictures on Facebook that contain Quran texts. A political analyst got arrested for posting an objective analysis of the breach on the 7th.

Meanwhile Jewish citizen have been calling for a final solution, mocking Palestinian suffering, and dehumanizing them. Telegram groups with thousands of members rife with organizing pogroms and lynches without any consequences. Hell, they’re even posting videos of urinating on Palestinian dead bodies, stabbing them and poking their eyes out. Zero consequences.

My supposedly leftist Jewish colleagues have turned into vengeful right wing snitches.

I have been threatened by my Jewish neighbor (that I’ve had good neighborly relationship with) telling me he’s sick of hearing me speaking Arabic in the building, when I stood my ground, with his veins popping out of his neck he threatened “I’ll do another Nakba to you”.

Most importantly, we've been warned not to protest by the police commissioner as the police won’t hesitate to use live ammunition. So we just have to live with the grief, the shame, the anger and the sense of defeatedness while all of this is happening.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Here’s why I’ve not been posting in here despite reading takes ranging from the horrifically uninformed to the blatantly racist:

Today in Israel, I’m not allowed to voice an opinion. Palestinian citizens of Israel have been forcefully silenced and threatened for any social media activity that isn’t in line with Israeli Hasbara. There’s a serious witch hunt going on. Full blown McCarthyism.

Hundreds have been detained, fired from their jobs. Hundreds have been threatened by Jewish citizens with physical harm. Authorities and law makers threatening to revoke our citizenship.

I’ll remain quiet for now in regards to the main issues rather than taking the risk of being ratted out like four of my friends who have been arrested for:

1) Following an Instagram page called eye on Palestine.
2) Sharing a post by an Israeli Jew on Facebook that accused Israel of genocide (the Israeli Jew has not been arrested, the Arab who shared the Jew’s post did get arrested).
3) Posting an instagram story sympathizing with the children of Gaza and calling for a ceasefire.
4) Being ratted out by her Jewish “friend” who shared screenshots of a private conversation they had on facebook, where she said there’s no evidence of beheadings. She’s been detained for three days, bullied by tens of thousands online, with the screenshots broadcasted on television.

An Arab medical doctor got fired because of an old profile pictures on Facebook that contain Quran texts. A political analyst got arrested for posting an objective analysis of the breach on the 7th.

Meanwhile Jewish citizen have been calling for a final solution, mocking Palestinian suffering, and dehumanizing them. Telegram groups with thousands of members rife with organizing pogroms and lynches without any consequences. Hell, they’re even posting videos of urinating on Palestinian dead bodies, stabbing them and poking their eyes out. Zero consequences.

My supposedly leftist Jewish colleagues have turned into vengeful right wing snitches.

I have been threatened by my Jewish neighbor (that I’ve had good neighborly relationship with) telling me he’s sick of hearing me speaking Arabic in the building, when I stood my ground, with his veins popping out of his neck he threatened “I’ll do another Nakba to you”.

Most importantly, we've been warned not to protest by the police commissioner as the police won’t hesitate to use live ammunition. So we just have to live with the grief, the shame, the anger and the sense of defeatedness while all of this is happening.

This is so sad. I’m so sorry. This is what you call a Nazi state.

 

[JPRouve]

Regarding freedom of speech, the other day I was looking at IDF Military orders and stumbled on the Military order 101. It concerns Occupied Territories.

https://www.btselem.org/demonstrations/military_order_101

 

[VorZakone]

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[Giggsyking]

Are those 20% allowed to voice their opinion?

They are allowed yes, but in fear.

 

[That_Bloke]

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You can (rightly) accuse Hamas of many things but deliberately inflating the numbers of deaths is not one of them. Their accounts always matched the UN and even Israeli numbers with minimal discrepancies.

If any, the amount of deaths is under evaluated since there's still a feckton of people buried under the rubble, without even accounting the people who were wounded and will die because of the lack of water, medical aid and proper treatment. I'm also not mentioning the long-term deaths due to the current insufficient food, unclean water and lack of hygiene. But hey, self-defense.

In the first six days of the retaliation Israel dropped, in tonnage, more bombs on Gaza than the Allies on Dresden. When you take a map and see the amount of destruction unleashed on a population that has no way to flee, you can't seriously play down these numbers, unless you're deliberately choosing to bury your head in the sand and/or a worthless piece of trash.

 

[JPRouve]

You can (rightly) accuse Hamas of many things but deliberately inflating the numbers of deaths is not one of them. Their accounts always matched the UN and even Israeli numbers with minimal discrepancies.

If any, the amount of deaths is under evaluated since there's still a feckton of people buried under the rubble, without even accounting the people who were wounded and will die because of the lack of water, medical aid and proper treatment. I'm also not mentioning the long-term deaths due to the current insufficient food, unclean water and lack of hygiene.

Anyone playing down these numbers is a worthless piece of trash.

To be honest, I think that you can accuse anyone of deliberately inflating/deflating numbers in these type of contexts simply because there is a communication war alongside the actual war. The issue for me is that the likelyhood of these figures being grossly underrated, in the case of Gaza City you are talking about an area that has a similar population density than New York, do people actually believe that bombarding entire New York neighborhoods would lead to less than 10k being killed even if you partially evacuated the city? To me that's implausible.

 

[Idxomer]

You can (rightly) accuse Hamas of many things but deliberately inflating the numbers of deaths is not one of them. Their accounts always matched the UN and even Israeli numbers with minimal discrepancies.

If any, the amount of deaths is under evaluated since there's still a feckton of people buried under the rubble, without even accounting the people who were wounded and will die because of the lack of water, medical aid and proper treatment. I'm also not mentioning the long-term deaths due to the current insufficient food, unclean water and lack of hygiene. But hey, self-defense.

Anyone playing down these numbers is a worthless piece of trash.

A lot of people did that after the first hospital bombing, here and elsewhere. Biden did similar a couple of weeks ago. This type of stuff along with the constant shitty propaganda are just distraction tactics.

 

[Denis79]

CNN continues to surprise me and I'm wondering where the shift is coming from. Here's the take of Benzi Sanders, a former IDF soldier and now peace activist about the military resolution of the conflict.

I believe what he's saying and I also like him believe that the way Israel is waging this war will just add to the ranks of Hamas or other terrorist groups fighting Israel.

 

[Wibble]

George Galloway tweet claims, about the 10/7 attack:

- Israeli Govt has dropped the allegations that rapes were carried out

- 40 beheaded babies dropped

- two thirds of the Israeli dead were military personnel

- of the third non military killed, most killed by IDF

Same reports coming from people on the inside. I wrote similar a few days back about what a friend of a friend who is inside was saying.

That sounds like bullshit in the main. And did Israel ever claim such a high number of beheaded babies?

Rape and murder certainly occurred and no way were 2/3rds of the Israeli dead military and even more no way were most Israeli civilian casualties friendly fire.

 

[Wibble]

There were "reports" that when the alarms went off on 10/7 IDF went in guns blazing and could be responsible for killing the revellers at the festival and more.

These are gaining more traction now in some quarters.

I'm calling bullshit. Not a chance that this is even vaguely accurate. Conspiracy theory nonsense or Hamas propaganda.

 

[Giggsyking]

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