Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[nimic]

Most of the third that were non military was George's claim. Not most of all dead

And yet you specifically repeated the claim that the IDF "could be responsible for killing the revellers at the festival", and then just now insinuated that the attendees were military. So clearly you think it's quite possible that the IDF killed more than just "non military".

 

[Roane]

I’ve no opinion on the rape claims, but literally the opening paragraph in the link you’ve provided states:

“The chief spokesperson of the Israel Defense Forces confirmed that rape and other atrocities were committed during the Oct. 7 terror attack in a televised statement Oct. 21, and other Israeli officials and civilian responders also described evidence of rape since this article was published.”

With the headline that Biden claimed rape had been committed when IDF had no proof.

The proof was "found later" and is dodgy at best

 

[Roane]

And yet you specifically repeated the claim that the IDF "could be responsible for killing the revellers at the festival", and then just now insinuated that the attendees were military. So clearly you think it's quite possible that the IDF killed more than just "non military".

I do believe the IDF killed more than non military.

Yasmin Porat interview suggests so. Unless it's been invalidated.

Tuvall says similar.

Stories emerging that some hostages taken by Palestinians, in their homes, were bombed killing all up to 2 days after the 7th.

According Max Blumenthal Israeli forces had orders to shell everything including their own bases.

Even i24, the ones behind the 40 babies, have reported about houses being bombed and lawns ripped apart by tanks.

Haaretz has released a list of over 600 Israelis killed in the attack. So far nearly 350 have been identified as military or police.

Could all be lies I guess.

 

[JagUTD]

Why are we once again going over what happened to the Israelis as if being brutally murdered by deranged people is somehow better than being raped, beheaded or whatever else by deranged people?

The truth is we may never know the full story about the horrific events of that day. Entire families were killed, so who was left to tell the story? What was recorded and what those that survived or were captured have told is enough.

 

[Frosty]

You could well be right. Problem is bullshit is rife from the Israelis too.

In the early days of the Hamas attack I wrote and referenced event organisers article in a music magazine about what went on. They stated the attendees at the event were 20-40 year olds many who were IDF reservists. So military?

I suppose it's how one wants to label people. For example we had the x amount of Americans, English etc but these were dual nationals due to how it works with Israeli nationals. Similarly if they all were, are, or have been reservists then I would say military.

The friendly fire issue is gathering traction, even according to Israeli papers who are working over time to show it to be false. But that is their status quo and for me usually means something isn't right or it's the Israeli propaganda machine going into overdrive to create and keep a narrative.

Similarly the rape issue is one that is getting traction and "over reporting" in the last few days. Women's groups in Israel are coming out to say why is this being questioned etc.

Main issue seems to be that even though first presented as rapes and gang rapes happening now it's well we weren't able to check for rapes because bodies were burnt and/or buried. No samples were taken according to military and medical staff.

The inews24 woman first put the figure at 40 for beheaded babies, based on an interview she had with a military guy. Interview may still be available. Obviously now shown as false but it was used by virtually every Israeli friendly person from Biden to representatives on news and radio channels.

Don't know if we will ever know the truth but if IDF say it's Saturday I would still check the calendar as they are full of shit and lie all the time.

I say this with respect, but do be very careful of falling down the rabbit hole here.

Somehow I have been here for nearly 17 years, but I have seen a few posters embrace conspiracy theorising to their detriment.

Hamas are awful, shown by their treatment of other Palestinians who opposed them following the 2005 elections.

It is perfectly possible to accept that and acknowledge the historical role of Netanyahu and others in the government in emboldening the group to make a two state settlement impossible, and it is also possible to acknowledge that oppressing millions of people can lead to a number of them wanting to fight back.

What I would say is this - assume everything Hamas has been accused of is true. That to me would still not in any way justify the collective punishment of Palestinians, the acts of settlers endorsed by the Israeli government in the West Bank, the endless occupation, let alone what has happened in Gaza in the last month. That's the key point for me.

It doesn't matter what Hamas did. I'm much more concerned with testing the veracity of claims like Hamas controlling hospitals so making them a "legitimate target".

 

[Badunk]

This is a decent, though lengthy, summary from Adam Shatz of the various elements that have produced the current situation. Well worth the read in full:

Vengeful Pathologies

Thanks for posting.

 

[Roane]

I say this with respect, but do be very careful of falling down the rabbit hole here.

Somehow I have been here for nearly 17 years, but I have seen a few posters embrace conspiracy theorising to their detriment.

Hamas are awful, shown by their treatment of other Palestinians who opposed them following the 2005 elections.

It is perfectly possible to accept that and acknowledge the historical role of Netanyahu and others in the government in emboldening the group to make a two state settlement impossible, and it is also possible to acknowledge that oppressing millions of people can lead to a number of them wanting to fight back.

What I would say is this - assume everything Hamas has been accused of is true. That to me would still not in any way justify the collective punishment of Palestinians, the acts of settlers endorsed by the Israeli government in the West Bank, the endless occupation, let alone what has happened in Gaza in the last month. That's the key point for me.

It doesn't matter what Hamas did. I'm much more concerned with testing the veracity of claims like Hamas controlling hospitals so making them a "legitimate target".

I hate Hamas more than people know. I have my reasons and I won't go into it here. Suffice to say Id happily shoot Hamas leadership.

The issue for me, and always has been, is narratives that are adopted. Not just here but are actively taught. I think I mentioned before that as a young kid I was told off for not accepting Richard was a Lionheart and Aladdin was evil. That was the narrative of my history lesson days in school.

Maybe that's why I don't take things on face value or never have. I have views on everything from Ghandi to MLK to Imran Khan in Pakistan. I don't just take any of the narrative.

Could I be wrong? Sure probably am. But it's at least worth investigating some elements.

The problem here is as cnutish as Hamas clearly are the IDF is equal if not worse.

 

[Badunk]

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This is beyond sad.

 

[Roane]

Why are we once again going over what happened to the Israelis as if being brutally murdered by deranged people is somehow better than being raped, beheaded or whatever else by deranged people?

The truth is we may never know the full story about the horrific events of that day. Entire families were killed, so who was left to tell the story? What was recorded and what those that survived or were captured have told is enough.

Because of you're going to brutally murder and massacre thousands of innocent women on children based on half truths and made up narratives you need to answer for your crimes too.

 

[Pintu]

The Israeli embassy posted this woman saying Hamas forced the Palestinians to stay put in the north.

Most replies are pretending the embassy faked the subtitles?

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[JagUTD]

I say this with respect, but do be very careful of falling down the rabbit hole here.

Somehow I have been here for nearly 17 years, but I have seen a few posters embrace conspiracy theorising to their detriment.

Hamas are awful, shown by their treatment of other Palestinians who opposed them following the 2005 elections.

It is perfectly possible to accept that and acknowledge the historical role of Netanyahu and others in the government in emboldening the group to make a two state settlement impossible, and it is also possible to acknowledge that oppressing millions of people can lead to a number of them wanting to fight back.

What I would say is this - assume everything Hamas has been accused of is true. That to me would still not in any way justify the collective punishment of Palestinians, the acts of settlers endorsed by the Israeli government in the West Bank, the endless occupation, let alone what has happened in Gaza in the last month. That's the key point for me.

It doesn't matter what Hamas did. I'm much more concerned with testing the veracity of claims like Hamas controlling hospitals so making them a "legitimate target".

I asked the other day if the claims were solely Israeli or not. Didn't get an answer but did have a look into it myself and there are plenty or reliable sources that support the claims, from the UN to The Guardian.

 

[JagUTD]

Because of you're going to brutally murder and massacre thousands of innocent women on children based on half truths and made up narratives you need to answer for your crimes too.

Do you think the Israeli response would have been any different though?

 

[2cents]

I will wonder what would happen if a general poster suggested a staff member had an agenda instead of engaging with what was posted. An attack the post not the poster kind of thing?

When I posted that you had just, laughably, accused @VorZakone of all posters of guarding a “narrative”. @VorZakone who basically functions as the Cafe aggregator in these threads and posts from a wider range of sources, reflecting a wider range of perspectives, than anyone else (thank you @VorZakone).

Speaking for myself I certainly have my biases as does everyone else here, so if you discern a particular agenda on my part you are free to note it.

I find your own posts in this thread and the other related one to be reflective, whether consciously or otherwise, of a conspiratorial approach to thinking about questions concerning Jews, antisemitism, and Israel. Cumulatively they suggest to me an agenda to downplay the seriousness of the dangers Jews face in this world, hint that Jews themselves may be over-stating them or perhaps responsible in some way, and by extension absolve the actual perpetrators of attacks on Jews of responsibility for their actions. This is disregarding certain instances where you have just blatantly posted fake stuff (one old example here).

There is of course a possibility that you are genuinely ignorant of how your pattern of posting might appear to others here, in which case you should try to understand why some of us don’t really buy the “I’m just into alternative viewpoints, who knows if I’m right or wrong?” type explanation.

 

[Kaos]

The Israeli embassy posted this woman saying Hamas forced the Palestinians to stay put in the north.

Most replies are pretending the embassy faked the subtitles?

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Just watched it, and yes the translations are complete nonsense and not in any way accurate.

 

[The Corinthian]

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[JagUTD]

The Israeli embassy posted this woman saying Hamas forced the Palestinians to stay put in the north.

Most replies are pretending the embassy faked the subtitles?

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Pretty sure it was reported at the time that Hamas' had told people to stay put.

 

[RedTiger]

This is beyond sad.

No, it's the Palestinians fault for taking their children to a legitimate military target.

 

[The Corinthian]

Pretty sure it was reported at the time that Hamas' had told people to stay put.

That's not even what the woman is saying though.

 

[Frosty]

I hate Hamas more than people know. I have my reasons and I won't go into it here. Suffice to say Id happily shoot Hamas leadership.

The issue for me, and always has been, is narratives that are adopted. Not just here but are actively taught. I think I mentioned before that as a young kid I was told off for not accepting Richard was a Lionheart and Aladdin was evil. That was the narrative of my history lesson days in school.

Maybe that's why I don't take things on face value or never have. I have views on everything from Ghandi to MLK to Imran Khan in Pakistan. I don't just take any of the narrative.

Could I be wrong? Sure probably am. But it's at least worth investigating some elements.

The problem here is as cnutish as Hamas clearly are the IDF is equal if not worse.

I'm not saying you cannot have views. I'm just saying that even if everything initially reported about the 7/10 attacks were true, that would not justify what is happening and will happen.

 

[Frosty]

Just watched it, and yes the translations are complete nonsense and not in any way accurate.

And now the tweet has disappeared. It has sadly served its purpose.

 

[Frosty]

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Taking a question on the issue, Netanyahu reiterates first that, after the war, Israel will retain “overall security control, including the capacity to go in whenever we want to eliminate terrorists who may pop up again.”

“I will tell you what there will not be. There will not be Hamas,” he says. “There will also not be a civil authority that educates its children to hate Israel, to kill Israelis, to eliminate the State of Israel. There cannot be an authority that pays the families of murderers [amounts] based on the number they murdered. There cannot be an authority whose leader still has not condemned the terrible [October 7] massacre 30 days later,” the premier says, referring to PA President Mahmoud Abbas. “That cannot be.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...estinian-authoritys-return-to-gaza-after-war/

 

[united_99]

Taking a question on the issue, Netanyahu reiterates first that, after the war, Israel will retain “overall security control, including the capacity to go in whenever we want to eliminate terrorists who may pop up again.”

“I will tell you what there will not be. There will not be Hamas,” he says. “There will also not be a civil authority that educates its children to hate Israel, to kill Israelis, to eliminate the State of Israel. There cannot be an authority that pays the families of murderers [amounts] based on the number they murdered. There cannot be an authority whose leader still has not condemned the terrible [October 7] massacre 30 days later,” the premier says, referring to PA President Mahmoud Abbas. “That cannot be.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...estinian-authoritys-return-to-gaza-after-war/

Yep, Gaza doesn’t need any of that.
What Gaza needs are the IDF, the Israeli government and settlers.

 

[JagUTD]

That's not even what the woman is saying though.

Not saying it was. Just what was reported at the time.

 

[The Corinthian]

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[nimic]

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My man, it's right there under the tweet:

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[Halftrack]

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I feel confident in stating that Israel has surpassed the evil and cruelty shown by Hamas on October 7th by orders of magnitude.

 

[The Corinthian]

My man, it's right there under the tweet:

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I think neonatal babies dying from a lack of oxygen is the real issue here pal. (And a medical crew member trying to help these babies being killed).

 

[nimic]

I think neonatal babies dying from a lack of oxygen is the real issue here pal. (And a medical crew member trying to help these babies being killed).

Why didn't you post the correction? Did you miss it, or was it deliberate?

 

[The Corinthian]

Why didn't you post the correction? Did you miss it, or was it deliberate?

I didn’t see it. All the tweets I post are things I see on my phone so it’s never linear or in order.

Edit: for example, I can’t see Twitter threads on my phone. I only see the starting tweet.

 

[RedTiger]

My man, it's right there under the tweet:

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This is great news, those babies will get to live for a few more hours yet.

 

[nimic]

I didn’t see it. All the tweets I post are things I see on my phone so it’s never linear or in order.

Edit: for example, I can’t see Twitter threads on my phone.

Okay, I was wondering if maybe it looked differently on the app.

 

[nimic]

This is great news, those babies will get to live for a few more hours yet.

Do you not see the potential issue here? My point wasn't that I am pro baby-murder. His explanation makes sense, but it's weird to me how you both went straight there in response.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

I defended Israel in this thread. I was wrong. No justification for this whatsoever.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

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One month ago:

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[Denis79]

One month ago:

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feck me... Honestly they are of the same cloth as Hamas.

 

[RedTiger]

Do you not see the potential issue here? My point wasn't that I am pro baby-murder. His explanation makes sense, but it's weird to me how you both went straight there in response.

Nimic, I in no way am saying that you're a pro baby murderer, I've known you on this forum for quite some time and I know you're impartial in most things. My issue isn't the numbers but more the actual act of targeting hospitals by Israel, anyway it's all futile as I'm sure Israel will release intelligence showing that those babies were probably training to be suicide bombers.

 

[The Corinthian]

Do you not see the potential issue here? My point wasn't that I am pro baby-murder. His explanation makes sense, but it's weird to me how you both went straight there in response.

I was helpfully reminded when I was making the same point about ‘40 beheaded babies’ that I shouldn’t quibble over the number or method.

 

[nimic]

Nimic, I in no way am saying that you're a pro baby murderer, I've known you on this forum for quite some time and I know you're impartial in most things. My issue isn't the numbers but more the actual act of targeting hospitals by Israel, anyway it's all futile as I'm sure Israel will release intelligence showing that those babies were probably training to be suicide bombers.

I can understand the sentiment; Israel is certainly committing war crimes. I just think particularly in this instance we all need to be as vigilant as possible to avoid misunderstandings. Israel's actions are bad enough on their own that we don't need to give people the opportunity to go "look, they're exaggerating, that's what we said all along".

I was helpfully reminded when I was making the same point about ‘40 beheaded babies’ that I shouldn’t quibble over the number or method.

And they were wrong then. Don't turn it into some crusade to be wrong in return.

 

[That_Bloke]

It was a french department without the need for quoting marks and I wouldn't describe it as a (military)occupation. Now the point that you are making is in my opinion different and exposes the principal of equality that France was claiming, there were caste systems where some men, europeans and jews had more voting rights than women, muslims or indigenous people depending on where they resided or their function. That issue of voting rights existed everywhere including the Metropole and was only fixed in 1958.

On that topic there is a strange exception in Corsica, women had the right to vote since the 16th century while everywhere else in France, they had to wait until 1945.

I only put it between quoting marks because I used a french word in a sentence written in english. Nothing else, really.

I see now what you meant and truly appreciate your insight about the internal disfunctions of the fourth republic.

 

[MDFC Manager]

I feel confident in stating that Israel has surpassed the evil and cruelty shown by Hamas on October 7th by orders of magnitude.

Young, tender meat shields. The idf terrorists are feasting.