Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[berbatrick]

It's interesting you bring up My Lai because that proves the exact point.

The world knows about my Lai and rightfully so, but as My Lai was happening, Hue Massacre was happening...where plain clothed NVA soldiers (war crime) went into Hue city and massacred thousands and thousands of civilians.

nobody holds, or to this day, cares, about holding Vietnam to account over this. Everyone and their dog has heard of My Lai. Complete differing standards.

The difference between the two is one person sentenced.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Cheap labors from china? You know the flight costs, expats, etc. Chinese labors arent cheap

They're building lots of infrastructure in Indonesia. They sent the aupervisor and the technicians but most of the labor pools are from locals. It made no economic sense to bring chinese labors in thousands when the locals are much cheaper.

And no.. they dont whip Indonesian. There would be riots if there's one.

We've had loans from IMF and nothing to show for. The past 10 years i can't count on how many big projects the Chinese made in here. Debt trap? At least the infrastructure is bolted in Indonesia. So unless they can magically transport the MRT, the Highways and the high speed train. It's here to stay

Maybe actually watch some videos on actual people making vlogs on daily lives instead of some doctored propaganda by the west for a change.

The US has been in Iraq for 20 bloody years and they only have makeshift hospitals and tents to show for

I would recommend reading this

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305750X2100423X

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The difference between the two is one person sentenced.

In material outcome. in outrage, political fallout, awareness....come on, you're being very disingenuous if you think they're equal.

an estimated 200k civilians were killed by NVA, including system war crimes such as plainclothing, massacres and seizures of south vietnamese villages, complete eradication of non-compliant villages.
not to mention torture of POW's, Hanoi hotel, murder of political dissidents.

Yet we're in the 21st century and not a single person gives a crap about all the stuff Vietnam did, but focus on the much smaller scale US crimes.

You're proving my point here

 

[Idxomer]

Kind of looks that way doesn't it? @Raoul was insistent that this war would be over waaay before then and would therefore be well forgotten anyway.

Was reading a few days ago that there were rockets fired from the North (again) and further strikes and attacks in Jabalia, despite it being at the far north of the ' already cleared' strip and Israel seemingly annihilating it first time round.

Things are going well.

Jabalia has been bombed relentlessly every day for a few weeks now. No hospitals are working anymore in the north after the last functioning one went out of service today. Anyone who gets injured will most likely die.

 

[africanspur]

In material outcome. in outrage, political fallout, awareness....come on, you're being very disingenuous if you think they're equal.

an estimated 200k civilians were killed by NVA, including system war crimes such as plainclothing, massacres and seizures of south vietnamese villages, complete eradication of non-compliant villages.
not to mention torture of POW's, Hanoi hotel, murder of political dissidents.

Yet we're in the 21st century and not a single person gives a crap about all the stuff Vietnam did, but focus on the much smaller scale US crimes.

You're proving my point here

Im sorry, I don’t think they are. Especially when your initial comment referred to being dragged in front of the ICC/ICJ.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Im sorry, I don’t think they are. Especially when your initial comment referred to being dragged in front of the ICC/ICJ.

Many people, both with power and without power, have expressed views that the likes of Nixon, Johnson, Kissinger etc should be hauled to the Hague. Kissinger being a war criminal is a very common and popular opinion.

Compare and contrast to that of the views of Ho Chi Minh?

 

[berbatrick]

In material outcome. in outrage, political fallout, awareness....come on, you're being very disingenuous if you think they're equal.

an estimated 200k civilians were killed by NVA, including system war crimes such as plainclothing, massacres and seizures of south vietnamese villages, complete eradication of non-compliant villages.
not to mention torture of POW's, Hanoi hotel, murder of political dissidents.

Yet we're in the 21st century and not a single person gives a crap about all the stuff Vietnam did, but focus on the much smaller scale US crimes.

You're proving my point here

And there were massacres by the South Vietnamese equal in scale.

Given the circumstances around its discovery, it is very probably the My Lai was indeed the tip of the iceberg in terms of US crimes. I'm from a country which has an active Communist insurgency - don't have to dig too deep to understand what happens when, for example, "a village is freed from Communist control and 18 insurgents eliminated." This was just last week. Not going to include extremely grisly stuff that came out some years ago when the press clampdown in Naxal areas was less absolute, and the pattern is almost always the same: triumphant release that terrorists were eliminated, a week later, locals dispute that characterisation.

The initial publicity about My Lai was exactly the same, with public congratulation for the perpetrators for eliminating VC. The difference was the heroism of one man. It is very logical that there were other incidents that will not be known.

The US won the Cold War. It "won" the Vietnam war - the dominoes stopped falling, while it simultaneously helped Indonesia liberate itself from Communism at the cost of 3 million lives. Scrutiny from anonymous people online is a small price for ruling the world.

 

[africanspur]

Israel is just like any other proxy state really, nothing more to it than a superpower-client relationship. Just another South Vietnam situation basically.

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Nothing new here to be fair, the USA has been blackmailing countries about Israel literally from the very first blackmail for the resolution about partitioning the land.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Denis79]

Swedish foreign minister says that Sweden will abide by the ICC ruling.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

And there were massacres by the South Vietnamese equal in scale.

Given the circumstances around its discovery, it is very probably the My Lai was indeed the tip of the iceberg in terms of US crimes. I'm from a country which has an active Communist insurgency - don't have to dig too deep to understand what happens when, for example, "a village is freed from Communist control and 18 insurgents eliminated." This was just last week. Not going to include extremely grisly stuff that came out some years ago when the press clampdown in Naxal areas was less absolute, and the pattern is almost always the same: triumphant release that terrorists were eliminated, a week later, locals dispute that characterisation.

The initial publicity about My Lai was exactly the same, with public congratulation for the perpetrators for eliminating VC. The difference was the heroism of one man. It is very logical that there were other incidents that will not be known.

The US won the Cold War. It "won" the Vietnam war - the dominoes stopped falling, while it simultaneously helped Indonesia liberate itself from Communism at the cost of 3 million lives. Scrutiny from anonymous people online is a small price for ruling the world.

I agree with everything you've said, and I agree the Vietnam war was just a mud flinging of who could do the most fecked up stuff. (This is why, broadly speaking, I'm very anti draft/conscription.)

But ultimately, that still doesn't change the fact that the average person holds the West to a far higher standard than others?

 

[Idxomer]

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[Idxomer]

I agree with everything you've said, and I agree the Vietnam war was just a mud flinging of who could do the most fecked up stuff. (This is why, broadly speaking, I'm very anti draft/conscription.)

But ultimately, that still doesn't change the fact that the average person holds the West to a far higher standard than others?

Isn't that simply because they claim to be far above other nations in matters of morality and other things attached?

To bring it back to Gaza, It does seem that the main problem for Western leaders with the ICC seeking warrants for both Sinwar and Netanyahu is some equivalence the court didn't really draw between both parties. If they keep making a big deal about their values and democracy, they should expect at least to be held to a higher standard.

 

[Idxomer]

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Remember that a big part of the "limited" Rafah operation is seizing the border and stopping aid from coming in.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

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[MDFC Manager]

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[RedTiger]

A western centric award giving the award to a Western guy, without the power of hindsight?

That still doesn't change the fact that right now the most popular view of Kissinger is that he was a war criminal.

The same is not said of Ho Chi Minh

Is Ho Chi Minh seen as a paragon of virtue?

 

[VorZakone]

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[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Howard Beckett (Asst Gen Sec of Unite… Labour backing union) saying it as he sees it. And not the old “party line” comment that a lot are regurgitating.

Good man

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[Tibs]

I can't believe this is still going on.

The Western moral authority is well and truly down the drain.

 

[Sweet Square]

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They have gone completely insane.

 

[nimic]

EU army can't come soon enough.

 

[africanspur]

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They have gone completely insane.

I really thank God Trump is not president every God damned day.

Otherwise we'd have crazy situations like the Americans threatening to defund the UN if the Palestinians get a state, sanctioning the ICC and seemingly agreeing to the Rafah invasion.

 

[B20]

I really thank God Trump is not president every God damned day.

Otherwise we'd have crazy situations like the Americans threatening to defund the UN if the Palestinians get a state, sanctioning the ICC and seemingly agreeing to the Rafah invasion.

They have lost their minds.

 

[maniak]

What an absurd hill to die on.

 

[Revan]

The US has given any pretense that they aren’t genuinely insane.

 

[Idxomer]

They have lost their minds.

They are just showing us who they always were.

 

[Giggsyking]

The Western World, broadly speaking, treats "War crimes" better than most when conducted by it's own officers.

The exemption to this is when its related to sensitive, black-operations where any court-trial could reveal this. For example, undercover military in Northern Ireland during the troubles, US special forces in the middle east, SAS operations etc. What usually happens here is the soldier(s) in question are quietly dismissed and told to shut up.

The world, none NATO/Western Bloc etc also holds the West (probably rightfully so) to a much higher standard (I'm not including Israel in this) when it comes to the criteria of who should be put in front of the ICJ/ICC, so it causes military brass to get irritated when people start clamoring the US president to put in front of the Hague for a mis-calculated drone strike when nobody cares about massacres across the whole that happen every few years.

Trump pardons Blackwater contractors jailed for massacre of Iraq civilians
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ractors-jailed-for-massacre-of-iraq-civilians

Can you please spare us some western value lectures. We are sick of it.

 

[2mufc0]

@Raoul why are you deleting posts?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Trump pardons Blackwater contractors jailed for massacre of Iraq civilians
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ractors-jailed-for-massacre-of-iraq-civilians

Can you please spare us some western value lectures. We are sick of it.

see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”

 

[Sweet Square]

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[africanspur]

see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”

Who says people don't care when it's non western peeps?

And who is the 'they' in your final sentence?

 

[Idxomer]

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And for the hypernormalization thread

Spoiler

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[Giggsyking]

see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”

You were building a case for the west sitting on a higher standard than the likes of authoritarian regimes. The reality is you are wrong and your statement is perceived as hypocritical, theatrical courts followed by pardons for people responsible for one of the worst worst massacres in the Iraqi invasion is simple example of the contradiction of morality with the word western values.

 

[Shez]

see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”

Yeah … everyone is famously quiet when putin poisons yet another dissident. putin, xi, that Iranian bloke are all rightfully called assholes - but somehow you have an issue on applying that same standard to the west?

 

[Pav1878]

Agree with most comments here. We know the US are insane, and that they are on the wrong side of history.
The question is when will they sit up and realise this?when will the penny drop?

At this juncture, it seems they are oblivious to world opinion and I can’t see them changing, which is incredibly frustrating and disheartening, because it seems things will only get better for the Palestinians and in the Middle East as a whole, when the US has fundamentally changed its colonialist foreign policy and ‘ironclad’ support for Israel.

Someone please give this spiralling middle aged man some positivity and hope.

 

[Sweet Square]

And for the hypernormalization thread

Spoiler

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Israeli propaganda really is the like listening to the most racist taxi driver in the world.

 

[Giggsyking]

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The only democracy in the middle east.