Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

Kaos said:
So devastatingly tragic.

What do you think his child will feel as he grows up? Father and grandfather murdered for no fault of their own and now likely displaced and inevitably living in a refugee camp in a land his immediate family have called home for generations. Are we at all surprised if he's filled with nothing but vengeful hate for the Israelis, and would be seen as a perceptive recruit for the likes of Hamas?
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It's a vicious circle. This is how extremism thrive, its not a surprise that Rabin was in their way and he had to go because he showed room for peace with the Palestinians. Labour party leader Merav Michaeli accused both Netanyahu and Bin Gvir of being complicit in the assassination of Rabin.

Ben Gvir, the rising star of the current election campaign, whose Religious Zionism party is seen heading for some 14 seats in the 120-member Knesset, first captured national attention when he was filmed as a teen boasting about stealing an emblem from Rabin’s car a short time before the assassination.
“We got to his car, and we’ll get to him, too,” he told a reporter at the time in televised comments.
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Check this one too. She deleted the post when she discovered that this is just a calendar after many thousands laughed at her.
 
Only seen a few clips but imagine piers Morgan interview with Corbyn tonight might make a few headlines tomorrow, mostly in the daily mail I guess.
 
Giggsyking said:
You are insinuating that much of arab's world are ok with the Palestinians being murdered everyday because they do not want them to be their problem. This does not sound good.
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Ok with it is a relative term. They don't want an influx of Palestinians though and they have resisted this for a long long time.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
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I don't think her translation is accurate. (purely isn't the only sense here). In Swedish I could use a similar adjective ("rent") to say "exclusively". That's how I understand the sentence she is quoting here... "Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen" should be understood as "They're not solely Germans".
 
Raoul said:
It will be hard for any objective non-gaslit observer to continue deny this stuff once it’s proven house to house each day.
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Off course they are going to find tunnels, where else they are hiding? But are we going to believe everything The Israeli state show us? They just faked a document on their official twitter account and got caught.
 
Raoul said:
It will be hard for any objective non-gaslit observer to continue deny this stuff once it’s proven house to house each day.
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If you look at this thread maybe it wont be that hard.
 
Raoul said:
It will be hard for any objective non-gaslit observer to continue deny this stuff once it’s proven house to house each day.
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It would have been much easier to prove all you say, if Israel had allowed independent observers to go in and check the hospitals before occupying them and staging whatever they want...
 
Giggsy PO said:
If you look at this thread maybe it wont be that hard.
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I believe there’s a longer six minute version of the video. The Israelis are going to be doing this every day or each time they come across something worth putting out. There’s an obvious propaganda quality to it, but that doesn’t mean the information is in any way inaccurate.
 
Raoul said:
I believe there’s a longer six minute version of the video. The Israelis are going to be doing this every day or each time they come across something worth putting out. There’s an obvious propaganda quality to it, but that doesn’t mean the information is in any way inaccurate.
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Or that it is true? If the russians made a similar video, you'd claim it was staged and in fact there is no way knowing it isn't.
 
Pintu said:
It would have been much easier to prove all you say, if Israel had allowed independent observers to go in and check the hospitals before occupying them and staging whatever they want...
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I don’t think independent observers can’t go into those places. They just have to know they’re taking their security into their own hands. The Israelis also have an embed program for journos who can travel into Gaza with them.
 
Raoul said:
I believe there’s a longer six minute version of the video. The Israelis are going to be doing this every day or each time they come across something worth putting out. There’s an obvious propaganda quality to it, but that doesn’t mean the information is in any way inaccurate.
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No, but the fact that they're caught lying on a daily basis sure as feck does. You can't trust anything Israel puts out at this point, because everything is tailored to suit their agenda (which is to make Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians), and who knows how much of it is fabricated, planted or outright made up.

It's frankly baffling that you're so willing to just accept whatever Israel says, after what we've been seeing for the last couple of decades.
 
Raoul said:
Yes, but that’s for the Russia thread.
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The point is, there is no reason to believe what's obviously Isreali propaganda. Doesn't mean it isn't true. Doesn't mean it is. Hamas is obviously a terrorist organization and it isn't beyond them to hide in hospitals etc., but considering Israel is targeting hospitals, humanitarian workers and shelters, I don't consider it beyond them to stage scenes like these to at least try to justify their actions.
 
Raoul said:
I believe there’s a longer six minute version of the video. The Israelis are going to be doing this every day or each time they come across something worth putting out. There’s an obvious propaganda quality to it, but that doesn’t mean the information is in any way inaccurate.
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I agree. My point is that there are not many objective observers as you mentioned in your previous post.
 
Halftrack said:
No, but the fact that they're caught lying on a daily basis sure as feck does. You can't trust anything Israel puts out at this point, because everything is tailored to suit their agenda (which is to make Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians), and who knows how much of it is fabricated, planted or outright made up.

It's frankly baffling that you're so willing to just accept whatever Israel says, after what we've been seeing for the last couple of decades.
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I’m willing to consider what both sides are saying. Hamas have been admitting they use their tunnels for fighting and not for protecting civilians - which is very believable. Likewise, the Israelis are corroborating in video what Hamas previously said about the tunnels. I don’t think anyone still denies that Hamas uses tunnels to fight, which is all the IDF are saying here.
 
Raoul said:
I believe there’s a longer six minute version of the video. The Israelis are going to be doing this every day or each time they come across something worth putting out. There’s an obvious propaganda quality to it, but that doesn’t mean the information is in any way inaccurate.
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I think its safe to say the Israelis have lost any credibility based on recent precedence wouldn't you say? They've reached Comical Ali levels of sincerity. So even their genuine findings would be met with incredulity and rightly so.
 
Kaos said:
I think its safe to say the Israelis have lost any credibility based on recent precedence wouldn't you say? They've reached Comical Ali levels of sincerity. So even their genuine findings would be met with incredulity and rightly so.
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No, I don't think so. There are occasional exaggerations and clumsiness in some of the Israeli releases, but they are ultimately incentivized to put out accurate information since they know not doing so will result in more damage than benefit to their objectives. The same can be applied to Hamas when it comes to casualty figures. I previously was highly skeptical of their numbers but have since concluded that as long as the numbers are not absurd, that they are more likely accurate than not. I think we have to be careful to fall into the trap of always only believing one side in this dispute, and should instead be considering what both sides are saying.
 
Raoul said:
No, I don't think so. There are occasional exaggerations and clumsiness in some of the Israeli releases, but they are ultimately incentivized to put out accurate information since they know not doing so will result in more damage than benefit to their objectives. The same can be applied to Hamas when it comes to casualty figures. I previously was highly skeptical of their numbers but have since concluded that as long as the numbers are not absurd, that they are more likely accurate than not. I think we have to be careful to fall into the trap of always only believing one side in this dispute, and should instead be considering what both sides are saying.
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It's not just exaggerations and clumsiness though - you're downplaying it. It's total fabrication in some instances. It's Russian level of fantasy, which you're quite happy to call out in that instance, but not in this. How are you squaring that circle?
 
The Corinthian said:
It's not just exaggerations and clumsiness though - you're downplaying it. It's total fabrication in some instances. It's Russian level of fantasy, which you're quite happy to call out in that instance, but not in this. How are you squaring that circle?
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That's absolutely not correct. The Russians are literally making nearly everything up for their internal audiences who are controlled by their own domestic propaganda with limited resources to know otherwise because they are conditioned by 24/7 hour misinformation of an authoritarian system. That is light years away from what a democratic nation is doing to get their message out. The problem is that some folks become incredibly uncomfortable with the idea that "the other side" might by putting accurate information out that is unflattering to the desired narrative, at which point people start making blanket statements denying anything coming out of one side. That's not a very productive way of approaching this from a balanced perspective.
 


First official document from a western country confirming prior knowledge of these war crimes and the scale at which they were intended (“Dahiya doctrine”).
 
Raoul said:
That's absolutely not correct. The Russians are literally making nearly everything up for their internal audiences who are controlled by their own domestic propaganda with limited resources to know otherwise because they are conditioned by 24/7 hour misinformation of an authoritarian system. That is light years away from what a democratic nation is doing to get their message out. The problem is that some folks become incredibly uncomfortable with the idea that "the other side" might by putting accurate information out that is unflattering to the desired narrative, at which point people start making blanket statements denying anything coming out of one side. That's not a very productive way of approaching this from a balanced perspective.
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What do you think hasbara is? It’s literally the government paying people to spread online propaganda, misinformation and fabrications. I guess the only difference (when compared to Russia) is that this is for external audience consumption as opposed to them deceiving their own citizens, but on balance, a lot of Israelis probably fall for it too. The sheer volume of fake stuff being put out is crazy when you really look at it.

That coupled with how they fabricate online translations, planting mein kampf, fake videos, fake audio…it’s a serious concerted effort to try and deceive the public or change the narrative. They’re as bad as the Russians with it.
 
Raoul said:
I’m willing to consider what both sides are saying. Hamas have been admitting they use their tunnels for fighting and not for protecting civilians - which is very believable. Likewise, the Israelis are corroborating in video what Hamas previously said about the tunnels. I don’t think anyone still denies that Hamas uses tunnels to fight, which is all the IDF are saying here.
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Are you being disingenuous? The purpose of that specific video is to justify bombing and besieging hospitals. An earlier photo of a "tunnel entrance" outside of a hospital turned out to be a shaft into a generator room. A photo of a man inside a hospital holding what was claimed to be a gun, but turned out to be a baton. Videos of prisoners, made by a captor known to treat Palestinian prisoners inhumanely and subject them to torture, talking about all the terrorism they plan and prepare in hospitals, schools, etc. because Israel never attack those, despite Israel having been attacking them for decades.

And that's just what they've put out relating to hospitals. There's also the pristine copy of Mein Kampf found on a dead Hamas fighter, the conversation in dodgy Arabic where a couple of Hamas guys conveniently admitted to accidentally exploding al-Ahli hospital, a phrase sheet in dodgy Arabic supposedly carried by Hamas fighters that proved they were planning to systematically rape Israelis, them making the case that journalists in Gaza knew of the attack in advance after people started noticing that a suspiciously high number of them were killed in their own homes. And that's just off the top of my head, and limited to the latest hostilities.
Raoul said:
No, I don't think so. There are occasional exaggerations and clumsiness in some of the Israeli releases, but they are ultimately incentivized to put out accurate information since they know not doing so will result in more damage than benefit to their objectives.
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This borders on the ridiculous. "Occasional exaggerations and clumsiness" is one of the all time great understatements. They're caught in spreading falsehoods on the regular, and have no reason to stop, because no matter how much they lie, and how many times they're caught doing so, there are people out there who will continue to take whatever they release at face value.
 
The Corinthian said:
What do you think hasbara is? It’s literally the government paying people to spread online propaganda, misinformation and fabrications. I guess the only difference (when compared to Russia) is that this is for external audience consumption as opposed to them deceiving their own citizens, but on balance, a lot of Israelis probably fall for it too. The sheer volume of fake stuff being put out is crazy when you really look at it.

That coupled with how they fabricate online translations, planting mein kampf, fake videos, fake audio…it’s a serious concerted effort to try and deceive the public or change the narrative. They’re as bad as the Russians with it.
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Its a part of their communication strategy to explain what they are doing (from their perspective of course). I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the information is accurate. If it isn't then it obviously needs to be called out as such. The concern I have is that critics of Israel are needlessly cornering themselves into a situation where they feel the need to reflexively argue that night is day when presented with information that is contrary to their preferred narrative. The exact same thing appears to be happening in Israeli society where anything emanating from the Palestinian side is automatically regarded as a lie designed to support Khhhamas.

At the end of the day, there is an information war taking place where both sides are seeking to appeal to their respective core audiences. Its up to the people taking in the information to hold both sides to account.
 
The first casualty here was the truth from 10/7 and any one claiming a side is telling us the truth is full of it themself.

War is lies and it’ll never change. The best liar will inflict the bigger damage. Let’s wait and see who wins, we’ll then know who the better liar was, or accept the better lie.
 
Kaush949 said:
With this level of stone age thinking, you will be be alienating any sympathies you get. You are further reinforcing Israel's 'animals' narrative.

How do you expect tolerance from your oppressors when you are showing to be intolerant yourselves?
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I get this virtue signalling is very important on the internet (and rightly so when responding to a homophobe), but tarring every Palestinian with the same brush as some random username on RedCafe is beyond ridiculous. And you didn't do it just one, you did it in successive posts.

Easy to see the masks slip off sometimes.
 
Raoul said:
Its a part of their communication strategy to explain what they are doing (from their perspective of course). I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the information is accurate. If it isn't then it obviously needs to be called out as such. The concern I have is that critics of Israel are needlessly cornering themselves into a situation where they feel the need to reflexively argue that night is day when presented with information that is contrary to their preferred narrative. The exact same thing appears to be happening in Israeli society where anything emanating from the Palestinian side is automatically regarded as a lie designed to support Khhhamas.

At the end of the day, there is an information war taking place where both sides are seeking to appeal to their respective core audiences. Its up to the people taking in the information to hold both sides to account.
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There aren't "both sides" between a coloniser and the oppressed.
 
Donaldo said:
There aren't "both sides" between a coloniser and the oppressed.
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Of course there are when Hamas, a bunch of religiously fanatical and highly murderous terrorists, are involved. You don't have to be a fan of Israel to recognise that as well.
 
Wibble said:
Of course there are when Hamas, a bunch of religiously fanatical and highly murderous terrorists, are involved. You don't have to be a fan of Israel to recognise that as well.
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And murdering, EDIT : committing horrific war crimes and genocide on an indigenous population to get to Hamas is the one side?

Do tell me how they're different from Hamas. And please don't start history with 7th October.
 
Donaldo said:
And murdering, EDIT : committing horrific war crimes and genocide on an indigenous population to get to Hamas is the one side?

Do tell me how they're different from Hamas. And please don't start history with 7th October.
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Who said anything about Israel not behaving badly? Just that you have decided that there is only one side to this. As for ignoring the history/context of so many things seems to have started on the 8th of October, so as to ignore what kicked off the latest shit show in the region. Hamas knew exactly how Israel would react - it was what they wanted - and of course Israel obliged. There is lots and lots of blame to go around and little or none of it gets us closer to a solution either to the current violence or a longer term solution.
 
Donaldo said:
I get this virtue signalling is very important on the internet (and rightly so when responding to a homophobe), but tarring every Palestinian with the same brush as some random username on RedCafe is beyond ridiculous. And you didn't do it just one, you did it in successive posts.

Easy to see the masks slip off sometimes.
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I acknowledge my poor choice of words. I intended to say 'yourself' instead of 'yourselves'.

For that I apologize.
 
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