Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

Iker Quesadillas said:
The unspoken premise here is that Israel is bombing and attacking hospitals because they have military operations underneath. I don't have to accept this premise because it is idiotic.
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Is it? Why? It is a tactic used widely over the years by terrorist groups like Hamas.
 
africanspur said:
Of course, that isn't the point at all because basically nobody on here has denied that Hamas uses tunnels. You keeping on repeating this point doesn't make it true. Hamas themselves don't even deny that they use tunnels.

Nobody here supports Hamas either.

It is an indisputable fact that one side is (rightly) proscribed as a terrorist organisation, sanctioned to the max and with the wider population dehumanised to an extent that we're genuinely and seriously talking about the merits of ethnic cleansing and bombing hospitals and ambulances. While the other side is a close ally, supported diplomatically, militarily and economically by the relevant world powers.
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It is just weird that people accept that Hamas used tunnels but seem to think they wouldn't use tunnels in/near hospitals or refugee camps or use hospitals as cover for military operations.

Why would Israel attack these targets if there was no military reason to do so? Surely they have enough bad publicity without intentionally making it worse for zero military advantage?

More generally the polarisation of views about this is exactly why (or one of the whys) the issue has never been resolved in any meaningful way. People seem incapable of accepting that many/most players in all this are morally dubious (to be very generous). Apart from murdering over a thousand innocent civilians the Hamas attack made a political solution even less possible and intentionally so. They want to wipe out the Jews and Israel no matter how impossible that is and no matter the cost in the suffering of the Palestinian people. Israel don't give a shit either and most of the Arab world, barring countries like Iran who want to use the issue to attack Jews/Israel/the US, doesn't care enough to offer sanctuary to them and never have. And of course the US bring their usual one eyed bullying approach to everything.

All a bunch cnuts and as usual civilians pay the price and will continue to do so.
 
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Wibble said:
Is it? Why? It is a tactic used widely over the years by terrorist groups like Hamas.
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Its a very obvious tactic that most paramilitary organizations steeped in nihilistic religious fanaticism would be incentivized to take advantage of. Hide behind civilians, then if there are civilian casualties, leverage the spectacle of mass carnage as a propaganda tool on the internet to increase public pressure on the opposition to deescalate.
 
The Israeli Defence Force has just said on X that it is “carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital”.

The full post says:

"Operational Update: IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital, based on intelligence information and an operational necessity. The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and rescue our hostages. Israel is at war with Hamas, not with the civilians in Gaza.

The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields.

In recent weeks, the IDF has publicly warned time and again that Hamas’ continued military use of the Shifa hospital jeopardizes its protected status under international law, and enabled ample time to stop this unlawful abuse of the hospital.

Yesterday, the IDF conveyed to the relevant authorities in Gaza once again that all military activities within the hospital must cease within 12 hours. Unfortunately, they did not.

The IDF has also facilitated wide-scale evacuations of the hospital and maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities. We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender."
 
The premise that "Hamas is putting war infrastructure under hospitals, that's why Israel is attacking" is comforting if you love the middle ground. You get to split blame more or less proportionally.

That is not what you get in reality.

What you get in reality is an Indonesian NGO funding and building a hospital in Gaza and saying "this is a hospital we built to treat people," and the IDF telling you "Hamas built that hospital to hide their tunnels."

These are not compatible claims. You get to choose which one you believe.

What you get in reality are doctors, nurses, and volunteers telling you that they are under siege, being shot at by snipers, watching people die, and the IDF saying "that hospital is not under any siege."

These are not compatible claims. You get to choose which one you believe.
 
The Israeli Defence Force’s Hebrew account on X also says, “At this time, IDF forces are operating against the terrorist organization Hamas, in a certain part of the Shifa hospital. The operation is based on intelligence information and operational need”.

It goes on to confirm the reports from Gazan health authorities that they were informed shortly before IDF forces entered the hospital.

“The hospital management was informed ahead of time about the entrance to the compound,” the IDF writes in Hebrew.
 
The IDF’s Hebrew account said, “in the continuation of the operation, incubators, medical equipment and baby food are expected to be transferred to the hospital”.

Three of the original 39 premature babies at al-Shifa have died since the hospital ran out of fuel at the weekend to power generators that had kept their incubators going, according to medical staff.

The remaining 36 babies requiring neonatal care are still alive, Dr Ahmed El Mokhatallali, a surgeon, told NBC News on Tuesday.
 
I have finally reviewed the content of all of my favorite conspiracy theorists on the interwebs, and I have to say I disagree with most of them, and I am with Israel on this conflict. Most of them are anti-Jewish for no rational reasons. Palestinians are the one committing atrocities and not allowing this conflict to be resolved. Palestinians are the one supporting and hiding possibly the most brutal terrorist organization that has ever existed.

Not my original quote, some dude on Joe Rogan podcast said it (that is how deep my research goes): If Palestinians lay down their guns, Israelis would go after those responsible for the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. If Israelis lay down their guns, Palestinians would go in and kill as many Israelis as they possibly can.

Innocent civilians will continue to die in this conflict and that is absolutely terrible, but Hamas has to be eradicated.
 
ExoduS said:
I have finally reviewed the content of all of my favorite conspiracy theorists on the interwebs, and I have to say I disagree with most of them, and I am with Israel on this conflict. Most of them are anti-Jewish for no rational reasons. Palestinians are the one committing atrocities and not allowing this conflict to be resolved. Palestinians are the one supporting and hiding possibly the most brutal terrorist organization that has ever existed.

Not my original quote, some dude on Joe Rogan podcast said it (that is how deep my research goes): If Palestinians lay down their guns, Israelis would go after those responsible for the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. If Israelis lay down their guns, Palestinians would go in and kill as many Israelis as they possibly can.

Innocent civilians will continue to die in this conflict and that is absolutely terrible, but Hamas has to be eradicated.
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I can't tell if this post is sarcasm.
 
Frosty said:
The Israeli Defence Force has just said on X that it is “carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital”.

The full post says:

"Operational Update: IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital, based on intelligence information and an operational necessity. The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and rescue our hostages. Israel is at war with Hamas, not with the civilians in Gaza.

The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields.

In recent weeks, the IDF has publicly warned time and again that Hamas’ continued military use of the Shifa hospital jeopardizes its protected status under international law, and enabled ample time to stop this unlawful abuse of the hospital.

Yesterday, the IDF conveyed to the relevant authorities in Gaza once again that all military activities within the hospital must cease within 12 hours. Unfortunately, they did not.

The IDF has also facilitated wide-scale evacuations of the hospital and maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities. We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender."
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Look what you made me do
 
ExoduS said:
I have finally reviewed the content of all of my favorite conspiracy theorists on the interwebs, and I have to say I disagree with most of them, and I am with Israel on this conflict. Most of them are anti-Jewish for no rational reasons. Palestinians are the one committing atrocities and not allowing this conflict to be resolved. Palestinians are the one supporting and hiding possibly the most brutal terrorist organization that has ever existed.

Not my original quote, some dude on Joe Rogan podcast said it (that is how deep my research goes): If Palestinians lay down their guns, Israelis would go after those responsible for the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. If Israelis lay down their guns, Palestinians would go in and kill as many Israelis as they possibly can.

Innocent civilians will continue to die in this conflict and that is absolutely terrible, but Hamas has to be eradicated.
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Rogan knows best so a wise choice.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The premise that "Hamas is putting war infrastructure under hospitals, that's why Israel is attacking" is comforting if you love the middle ground. You get to split blame more or less proportionally.

That is not what you get in reality.

What you get in reality is an Indonesian NGO funding and building a hospital in Gaza and saying "this is a hospital we built to treat people," and the IDF telling you "Hamas built that hospital to hide their tunnels."

These are not compatible claims. You get to choose which one you believe.

What you get in reality are doctors, nurses, and volunteers telling you that they are under siege, being shot at by snipers, watching people die, and the IDF saying "that hospital is not under any siege."

These are not compatible claims. You get to choose which one you believe.
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Hospitals can be (and are) functioning hospitals, and terrorist like Hamas can (and do) use them as cover fully knowing that this gives them some protection, and when it doesn't it gives them a great PR stick to beat Israel with. Israel will Israel and so the cycle continues.
 
ExoduS said:
I have finally reviewed the content of all of my favorite conspiracy theorists on the interwebs, and I have to say I disagree with most of them, and I am with Israel on this conflict. Most of them are anti-Jewish for no rational reasons. Palestinians are the one committing atrocities and not allowing this conflict to be resolved. Palestinians are the one supporting and hiding possibly the most brutal terrorist organization that has ever existed.

Not my original quote, some dude on Joe Rogan podcast said it (that is how deep my research goes): If Palestinians lay down their guns, Israelis would go after those responsible for the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. If Israelis lay down their guns, Palestinians would go in and kill as many Israelis as they possibly can.

Innocent civilians will continue to die in this conflict and that is absolutely terrible, but Hamas has to be eradicated.
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The absurdity of Israels approach is that every time they kill children and innocent civilians they inevitably create more of the very thing they wish to destroy.
1 child every 10 minutes for an entire month has been killed so far.

Hamas is evil and it has to be destroyed but Israel has got it all wrong with this current approach. By the time they finish there will be more Palestinians who are pushed to joining Hamas. Its completely idiotic.
 
Raoul said:
Its a very obvious tactic that most paramilitary organizations steeped in nihilistic religious fanaticism would be incentivized to take advantage of. Hide behind civilians, then if there are civilian casualties, leverage the spectacle of mass carnage as a propaganda tool on the internet to increase public pressure on the opposition to deescalate.
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Agreed. Denying it seems to suggest blind bias. You an fully accept that Hamas would do this without thinking that Israel are bastions of righteousness.
 
Stack said:
The absurdity of Israels approach is that every time they kill children and innocent civilians they inevitably create more of the very thing they wish to destroy.
1 child every 10 minutes for an entire month has been killed so far.

Hamas is evil and it has to be destroyed but Israel has got it all wrong with this current approach. By the time they finish there will be more Palestinians who are pushed to joining Hamas. Its completely idiotic.
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The region has been idiotic for a very long time. Depressing that it seems things are only getting worse rather than better. I'd say the small chance of a 2 state solution is now a zero chance.
 
ExoduS said:
Innocent civilians will continue to die in this conflict and that is absolutely terrible, but Hamas has to be eradicated.
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Sounds good if you say it quickly. But is that possible?

Think about Northern Ireland. Decades of conflict. Murderous paramilitaries on both sides, the Government/British Army (after initially being sent in to protect Catholics)/police generally acting like Israel in Bojo clothing in an endless cycle of violence until all sides eventually started talking and with a genuine will to seek some sort of improvement/solution.

The Hamas attach and the utterly inevitable Israeli response has made that impossible for the foreseeable future. Depressing.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Yes, and 10 year olds girl can be (and are) functioning terrorists, IDF projectiles can be (and are) Palestinian projectiles, etc.
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That is what I'm talking about. You choose a couple of tweets that may well contain correct information, showing civilian deaths from Israeli actions with Israeli spin attached, as confirmation that Hamas aren't using hospitals to protect military operations. That is a non sequitur.

They are many bunch of cnuts in this and all of them will spin and even make stuff up. Of course they will. That doesn't mean you just believe or disbelieve the bits that confirm or deny your bias.
 
Wibble said:
That is what I'm talking about. You choose a couple of tweets that may well contain correct information, showing civilian deaths from Israeli actions with Israeli spin attached, as confirmation that Hamas aren't using hospitals to protect military operations. That is a non sequitur.

They are many bunch of cnuts in this and all of them will spin and even make stuff up. Of course they will. That doesn't mean you just believe or disbelieve the bits that confirm or deny your bias.
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Let's say there are Hamas tunnels under hospitals. Does it make it ok to bomb these hospitals where there are many children on life support?
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Let's say there are Hamas tunnels under hospitals. Does it make it ok to bomb these hospitals where there are many children on life support?
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To me? No. But pretending that there aren't military objectives to (possibly inadvertently) absolve Hamas of any blame and to paint Israel in and even worse light does not help anything and only makes the current shit show worse.
 
Wibble said:
Sounds good if you say it quickly. But is that possible?

Think about Northern Ireland. Decades of conflict. Murderous paramilitaries on both sides, the Government/British Army (after initially being sent in to protect Catholics)/police generally acting like Israel in Bojo clothing in an endless cycle of violence until all sides eventually started talking and with a genuine will to seek some sort of improvement/solution.

The Hamas attach and the utterly inevitable Israeli response has made that impossible for the foreseeable future. Depressing.
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I really need to get educated more about Northern Ireland conflict, The Troubles. Closest I got was in Gladwell's book David and Goliath where he argued British attempt to enforce authority backfired. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that it appears IRA took an "L" in "The Troubles" conflict and in return they got few concessions from the British. The same will have to happen in this conflict - Palestinians will have to take an "L" along with whatever favorable agreements they can get from Israelis. Appears that Palestinians do not want to take an "L" and their strategy is to continue to inflict damage to Israeli civilians to which Israelis respond unevenly. Doesn't bring me any pleasure in saying this - but the side getting overwhelmed should work toward peace and ensure there are no organizations within it jeopardizing the path toward peace. If Palestinian strategy is to protect Hamas so they can murder Israeli civilians, so Israelis just pack up and leave then they will have to live with harsh responses like this.
 
ExoduS said:
I really need to get educated more about Northern Ireland conflict, The Troubles. Closest I got was in Gladwell's book David and Goliath where he argued British attempt to enforce authority backfired. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that it appears IRA took an "L" in "The Troubles" conflict and in return they got few concessions from the British. The same will have to happen in this conflict - Palestinians will have to take an "L" along with whatever favorable agreements they can get from Israelis. Appears that Palestinians do not want to take an "L" and their strategy is to continue to inflict damage to Israeli civilians to which Israelis respond unevenly. Doesn't bring me any pleasure in saying this - but the side getting overwhelmed should work toward peace and ensure there are no organizations within it jeopardizing the path toward peace. If Palestinian strategy is to protect Hamas so they can murder Israeli civilians, so Israelis just pack up and leave then they will have to live with harsh responses like this.
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I think this is far too simplistic a line of thinking. Not meaning that as any sort of put down. The side getting heavily overwhelmed have no real practical way to ensure there are no organisations jeopardising the path to peace. Voting Hamas out really isnt an option, it wont happen in the near future. They dont have the means to push back on Hamas, they dont have the arms or backing to push back on Hamas. There is as far as I can tell no current leader to unify them and move them in that direction. All those Hamas members have at some time been rightly or wrongly on the receiving end of Israeli retribution or other.
One of the multiple problems is half of the adult Palestinian population wasnt of voting age when Hamas were elected. Mere children then are now being given the responsibilities of being accountable for what the adults before them did. On top of that they themselves are taught, led, influenced by those adults now. Its a whirlpool of conflicting and heavily influenced ideas. The Palestinian strategy if there is actually one is influenced by both Palestinian and Israeli influences. Some for good, some for evil.
There are so many layers to this is mind bending.

I have no clue as to what any solution could be as i simply dont know enough but what I do know is this current Israeli approach will just create more hatred. They are sadly I believe setting up for another generation to attack them in the evil way Hamas has in 20 years time.
 
Wibble said:
The point is that people seem to be either denying that tunnels or Hamas military units are under/near hospitals or saying that if there are they shouldn't be attacked. Israel take these decisions of course but Hamas seem to be largely getting a free pass for using their own population (especially the most vulnerable) as human shields. I'm not even vaguely trying to say Israel are the good guys in this, just that people seem to want black and white villains and not recognise there are far more than one bunch of cnuts involved.
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Maybe is understood that hamas uses his populatiom becauae is a TERRORIST GROUP and we expect better from a DEMOCRATIC GOVERMENT that should have a better regard for civilians lifes?

Again for the 100th timem. All of you that compare a terrorist group to a state goverment it ends equating israeli as terrorist state. There is no other intetpretation
 
Desperately paddling same shit post after post, some funny Lidl lobbying not gonna lie.
 
ExoduS said:
I have finally reviewed the content of all of my favorite conspiracy theorists on the interwebs, and I have to say I disagree with most of them, and I am with Israel on this conflict. Most of them are anti-Jewish for no rational reasons. Palestinians are the one committing atrocities and not allowing this conflict to be resolved. Palestinians are the one supporting and hiding possibly the most brutal terrorist organization that has ever existed.

Not my original quote, some dude on Joe Rogan podcast said it (that is how deep my research goes): If Palestinians lay down their guns, Israelis would go after those responsible for the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. If Israelis lay down their guns, Palestinians would go in and kill as many Israelis as they possibly can.

Innocent civilians will continue to die in this conflict and that is absolutely terrible, but Hamas has to be eradicated.
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Are you being sarcastic? or trolling?
 
4bars said:
Maybe is understood that hamas uses his populatiom becauae is a TERRORIST GROUP and we expect better from a DEMOCRATIC GOVERMENT that should have a better regard for civilians lifes?

Again for the 100th timem. All of you that compare a terrorist group to a state goverment it ends equating israeli as terrorist state. There is no other intetpretation
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Evidence would suggest that you are being very optimistic. I'm well over 3 decades past expecting Israel to act like the adult in the room after having lived there for 6 months in the late 80's. I've lived in Egypt and UAE as well so I have a similarly dim view from that perspective as well. Much to admire but a great deal not to admire.

When a democratic state gets into the situation (however that occurs) where they are occupying a bit of land where the local population is other, wants them gone and a terrorist organisation arises, then that democracy will pander to the majority of the electorate when a terrorist attack occurs not matter the history, and that will rarely be a path of restraint. Anything less is usually seen as rewarding terrorists. It happened in the UK with Northern Ireland and it is happening/has happened here. The big difference is that few or none of the players in this conflict want a workable solution. The West Bank is now such a mass of settlements that I can't see how that can be made to work under a 2 state solution (exactly the point of Israeli settlement). Hamas are happier trying to wipe out Jews and Israel and any version of a 2 state solution they would be part of won't fly for anyone else (as it will be delusional in nature and scope). Including land outside Gaza and The West Bank is a no go for the neighbouring countries. Governments talking to terrorists, with both wanting a peaceful solution is required to get a solution and we are nowhere near that here. In fact we are further away than ever.

I'm not against calling out bad behaviour by everyone, rather the opposite, but the current bias to Hamas e.g. they say they don't have military operations in hospitals and people believe that, yet blindly assuming Israel are lying about everything, even things as obvious as Hamas using hospitals and the like as cover, does nothing to further anything. You can accept that both sides are engaging in misinformation and propaganda while at the same time thinking Israel shouldn't attack hospitals no matter what (or that they should do so with more care or whatever) and most of all you can think badly of just about all players in this. I do. But the ludicrous levels of confirmational bias displayed in this thread (mainly pro-Palestinian, but also pro-Israeli by some posters) simply demonstrates how divided and intractable the situation is.
 
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